New Dawn

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Well either you guys have been very lucky with your team composition, or the Fire Tanker I had the last few times I attempted it was just [censored]. I wouldn't put it past him just being [censored]...

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They censoring the word inexperienced?

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A lot of peoples will be plain old IOs or SOs still have to function.

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Less than you might think, assuming they've hit 50 already.

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Edited.

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Taunting is *all* about being lazy. It prevents you from having to keep aggro using less efficient means (attacking). This game has incredibly simple "hate" mechanics, it's laughably easy to hold aggro without much effort because the multiplier for taunt effects is so high.

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I find that a lot of tankers have an attack chain plus an aura plus taunt. They do not just spam taunt. Taunt is there to keep damage off of people as I have already mentioned. Laziness is a frame of mind but having less to worry about in terms of personal survivability means less work.

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In most other MMORPGs you have to very carefully balance your aggressive abilities, your healing abilities and your hate-generating abilities when you're in a group that's killing a monster(s). In CoX? Just taunt the thing, it'll focus on you and noone else for ages unless it's a Banished Pantheon Mask (or one or two very other rare mobs Including Rularuu).

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Then why don't you remove taunt from your tanker if your unhappy with it. Empaths heals are autohit, many debuffs are autohit. There are quite a lot of auto hitting features. Team with anyone who doesn't autohit.

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Taunt (the power) makes it even simpler. That's why we hear some toons referred to as "taunt bots". They never need to attack if they simply spam taunt and cycle their targets well, because they'll keep all the aggro.

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I personally don't care too much about how someone chooses to play the game. You can have a pacifistic hero just taunting away, unhappy to put a punch in if you like or a pacifistic defender concentrating on support. Concept wins. I actually class pacifists who provide support as a special kind of hero. You pay to play and can have any concept you like and you can team with anyone you like. If you don't like someone then don't play with them. I don't play with you do I? There you go then . In the lower levels despite working taunt doesn't last that long anyway a little bit of gauntlet and the use of an aura might be needed to keep aggro. A firetank around +3 Tsoo might miss with BA and his/her attacks due to the hurricane along with everyone else missing but taunt hits. We know Tsoo Sorcerors have ears so why shouldn't it. In getting the right balance which is an on going process the Devs aren't going to make all heals gain greater aggro anytime soon.

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That build is lazy on account off so few attacks.

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On the contrary, the build itself isn't lazy, it just promotes a lazy style of play. "Keep aggro and never die" being that style of play. If I were to play that toon, I'd be teleporting about the place like a mad thing to clump foes together, using Ice patch to perma-knockdown them and Mud Pots to slow them so that my teammates could "arrest" them quickly and painlessly.

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I don't have a Stone/Ice. Those that do have never seen me make a build like that. It is lazy on account of so few attacks as it doesn't really contribute in damage, it also lacks the need to tactically think their way out of a problem. When soloing it'll be a watch telly and play build whilst other tankers have to go with getting damage mitigation from everything being defeated.

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Also there is the case of formations. A lot off people are run in and mash keys which doesn't suit all types of defenders much in supporting the team and by creating a formation you can bring greater safety.

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At the risk of boring your teammates to death. Yes, naturally there are different methods. The most efficient formation in MOST MMORPGS being "(Monster) --- TANK --- MELEES--- SPELLCASTERS". In CoH you usually don't need to worry unless there are several groups in close proximity (> aggro cap), just send the tank in, get aggro and hit it. In CoV the "formations" are much more varied and interesting.

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You might not know everything there is to know about CoH Maelwys. So comparing what the differences are CoH and CoV is more a matter of personal experience than in actual fact. I like to look at any team with a hope of succeeding. If at any time you have said "get a <insert here>" or "we need a <insert here>" or are in need of a fairly supportive set. Then you have been in a place I never have. I like to team with people who simply want to team. In a choice between someone getting their kin or energy blaster for the STF I didn't care. Formations happen as a matter of whose in team and on how best we can all survive, would like to survive and would actually finish things and if all things are right its the Tanker at the most risk. If people are dying around you after you are already ready for them to fight then I don't blame the defenders, I blame you.

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Meatshields don't impress me as its all only passive defense.

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That build is far more survivable than it needs to be but it won't defeat anything

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Well that's the idea (survivability). With that build you won't ever have to worry about the tank dying in PvE unless you're fighting Hamidon or the Crystal Titan. The PBAoE-Knockdown-patch-plus-Mudpots combo is also very effective, particularly with a "Mud Pots" slotted with a Damage Proc. That build is extremely efficient at one thing: getting aggro and surviving it. It's one of the best possible builds in the game for that purpose.

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At the risk of boring your teammates to death. Yes, but no, because you see your team mates are your team mates for a reason and visa versa.

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Meatshield builds have active defences as well as passive defences. The first active defence is Taunting (you yourself have said that "taunting is the best form of mitigation"), the second is a Damage Aura. The third is Heals. The forth is attacks. The fifth is other clicky abilities, temporary powers and inspirations.

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Every effect can be used for survivability but eventually foes must take a fall.

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That build has Taunt, a Damage Aura, a Self-Heal, a PBAoE knockdown patch that's easily perma while in Granite, a few attacks (very low priority), Hasten, Conserve Power, Recall Friend and Teleport Foe. All of those allow "active mitigation"... whereas the Defence, Resistance, Mez Protection and Regen are passive.

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If you love it. Make one. What I would hate to see is everyone with one. The game is already becoming City of Controllers and City of Corrupters in certain areas. Why? Lack of mental gymnastics. You see the teams that get Master of "" badges? The tanker takes the pity spot. 1 tank 3 def and 4 controllers getting the badge is not an achievement especially with your suggested build above. Teams like that go in and mow the lawn as long as people have an idea of what they are doing.

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I'd be quite happy to level and play that toon. Whilst levelling I'd have more attacks, since it'd be slow-going otherwise when not teaming with a bunch of damage dealers... but I'd certainly drag him out to tank just about anything. My INV/SS is "very survivable", That Stone/Ice would be "virtually unkillable". Both would claim and hold aggro very easily, which is the tank's role in a team. The Stone simply sacrifices more attacking power (which is what happens with Granite Armor anyway) for a far more extreme level of survivability.

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I play for flexibility.

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This game provides a myriad of ways to build an AT, the above Stone/Ice build would simply be on the other end of the "Damage versus Defences" spectrum from a Fire/Fire Tanker. One's better versus lots of smaller, weaker mobs... but the other versus, say, Lord Recluse.

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You'd be surprised at how good any type of tank can be against Lord Recluse. The need for Inv and Granite is a myth. A lack of understanding, a lack of mental flexibility and too much generalization. Not necessarily from the players of said tanks themselves but from the players around them.

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A granite without a heavily slotted taunt is pretty lacking in flexibility in what they can do for 'various' team make ups but in some team make ups some people only need someone to take the alpha for them.

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That quote was what I was referring to. "Granites" (I'm assuming you're talking about 'Stone Tanks that rely mainly on Granite Armor') are not nearly as lethargic, slow, and low-AoE-damage as they used to be before IOs.

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Some, a lot of the time are unnecessarily in granite not doing more than they could but I don't really give a damn.

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By it's nature the Stone Armor set allows you to be flexible enough to tank any mob type. Building and playing your toon in order to leverage that survivability into team damage mitigation is what makes a good tanker.

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Icetanks, Firetanks, Invulns and Stonetanks are all good tanks.

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In general, on randomly-selected teams you will have more than enough damage dealers (usually fairly squishy ones) and one or two few support toons. A highly-survivabile aggro magnet like the build I listed would be able to provide mitigation to a team regardless of what buffs or debuffs are available.

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Not necessarily. The game isn't as straight forward as one may think. Every villain has AI and its not always the same and they also have different resistances. A highly survivable aggro magnet doesn't necessarily provide anything neither as players have different levels of experience and expectation. No build and no team of toons are necessarily set to auto win as everything comes down to the players behind the toons.

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That's flexibilty right there. It wouldn't need a FF, Sonic, Empath or any other toon to add to its mitigation.

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No team necessarily needs those particular sets anyway.

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All the team would have to worry about is doing damage and not attracting a large enough number of enemies to go over the aggro cap (and even then, Ice Patch will help). It is not a "tanker"'s job on a typical team to deal the damage, but to attract the foe's attacks and survive. This the Stone/Ice build does very well, regardless of who else is on the team. I'm not stating that all people would enjoy that style of gameplay on such a toon, merely that it is effective and does not preclude "flexibility".

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Yes thats good for players who want to do damage. When I log into my TA I want to play as a TA. I want a reason to debuff and feel like I am a use to the team. If not I like to help those that actually do need me. If I wanted to be all about archery I'd of made an archery blaster. People opinions will differ. Everyones idea of a good tanker differs. Everyone being classed as great in different peoples eyes is great.

I am not going to define fun for people. I don't do fun

A lot of peoples will be plain old IOs or SOs still have to function.

Taunt isn't about being lazy, its about taunting a foe effecting someone in another place without bringing the AoEs that is on ones tanker to the person that needs help. So if I am on last health Id rather you taunt the foe off of me than come near me plus range beats travel.

That build is lazy on account off so few attacks.

Also there is the case of formations. A lot off people are run in and mash keys which doesn't suit all types of defenders much in supporting the team and by creating a formation you can bring greater safety.

Meatshields don't impress me as its all only passive defense. Controllers have to be about active defense. Regens have to get their heals in at the right moments and think about what buffs to fire off before an event. Firetanks have to pretty much go about concentrate on destroying groups first. The list goes on. I couldn't play that build because in terms of challenging and fun to play it would be dull like mowing the lawn and in terms of whats challenging for the team as long as they wait for taunt control they are relatively fine. Anyone can eventually get one, walk through the game with it and not need to show any mental gymnastics at all.

That build is far more survivable than it needs to be but it won't defeat anything . I'd rather play having to fear something. His name is Scirrocco

On a side note:

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Mag from multiple taunt attribs will stack with one another (in exactly the same way holds do) but they will not stack their durations.

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This'll possibly explain why it has often taken me 2 taunts to even gain attention. Which is another reason why "only fools rush in" cos if it takes that much peoples lives are definitely at risk.

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My Dual Katana DB/Inv "Katja Blades" was born yesterday, and WoW! she went from lvl 1 to 8 in 4 hours without dying!! (^.^); Powerful scrapper and beautiful to see in combat. Can't wait to have at least one full combo power and see what she can do with that (^_^).

@Meshsmoother

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I got to lvl 5 and died XD so obviously your not pushing things enough, avoiding a good fight and all that what what.

If ya gonna get an opinion any time soon it'll probably be from someone at work who can't play but can post. After all its I11 and new sets are out. I ofc would stop playing to discuss taunt control and would love the new taunt sets on my kheldians.

The granite is practically a brick that a lot off the uncaring kind of tankers ask for. A granite without a heavily slotted taunt is pretty lacking in flexibility in what they can do for 'various' team make ups but in some team make ups some people only need someone to take the alpha for them. Only needing someone to take the alpha is more to do with everyones powerset choices and concept rather than team skill.

I like this one to help me keep track and tell me what to get next and how to get it.

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I've just realised something. I recently respeced Frosty into Icicles (in addition to CE), and I seem to keep the aggro longer when I activate hibernate now.

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Icicles is <3 . A level 12 pick for me everytime.

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Furthermore those with taunt with one base slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits.

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Not that much. Castle said that slotting for taunt duration does affect the threat level, but that the magnitude of taunt effects is pretty irrelevant.

Furthermore, in practice it doesn't make much difference: my DA Scrapper can hold aggro over a Gauntlet-using tanker on an AV by using Scrapper Taunt (one taunt duration) plus his normal attack chain. My INV Tanker has Taunt two-slotted (one duration, one recharge) and can hold aggro over virtually anything, including other Tankers, multiple Brutes, and Taunt-using Scrappers.

The most important thing to realise is that since we now know taunt (the effect) to be effectively a threat multiplier not an on-or-off status effect, we know that closing to melee range and using BOTH your damaging attacks AND Taunt will lock aggro much more solidly than just using Taunt from range.

I'm also unsure whether effects such as Rage or Build Up enter into Taunt (the power)'s threat-equation... one of Castle's examples features slotting and and suggests that damage buffs make a substantial difference to the part of the threat calculation that's attack-based. This may or may not apply to "Taunt" itself, but it certainly applies to "Gauntlet" attacks.

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Your not looking at what the Taunt power can take in the way of enhancements. Enhancements don't effect magnitude and so bringing up the magnitude makes no difference.

Your DA with the aura and confront can hold aggro over a gauntletting tanker. I know that as its down to the low taunt duration of each gauntlet compared to your duration of confront which seriously increases your threat value. The more duration you have the more threat you multiply.

If you use range as a damage mitigator by limiting what attacks an AV can use. You then may want additional taunt slots to counter the lowering threat rate from being ranged. Then we should get the effect of having a certain % of a much higher duration.

As a Scrapper kiting an AV for one scrapper and 6 blasters everything should be fine unless that one scrapper not kiting has a taunt aura on and/or confronts and against that one target. There is no real need to have a taunt aura on a single target (plus its inefficient) and because another scrapper is taunting there is no need to taunt. The whole team should manage to drop that AV pretty safely barring set attack hard - wired in that you can expect. That confront does take slots in duration to counter the effect of range and on the AV duration must meet the next recharge to constantly cause enough threat to keep aggro.

Not every team needs a tanker and not every team needs a controller and even a defender neither. The game is made so you can go without at least one AT. 7 controllers don't necessarily need that 1 tanker for the STF. They are just slightly safer with one than without and he is stupidly safe. All those defenders and controllers saying "we don't need no stupid tank" should and could have us also saying "well bleep you too" when really; in pretty rounded teams; we know we are better off with at least one of each other.

The very fact that you are above the base slot on your tanker allows you slightly more flexibility and what I said was those that are just the basic taunt slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits and they do in fact. They are less likely to say "well bleep you too!"

When it comes to build up and rage they should effect threat levels but 1000 per sec from taunt is such a good multiplier to start. The duration is never the same on every foe so we might assume that to keep adding durations and/or having the recharge meet the duration is a good idea. Quoting some Dev

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So, a scrapper who is standing in the mix of a bunch of guys, with a Taunt Aura, tossing out attacks left and right, is going to be nigh impossible to steal aggro from by a Tanker relying solely on Taunt at Range. Taunt WILL do the trick if the tanker gets closer and tosses an attack or two into the mix.

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Taunt with extra duration would up the threat level and should keep aggro. Why do I think this. See here:

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Does Enhancing the Duration of a Taunt increase the value by which it multiplies Threat Generation?

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Absolutely.

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You can find before all this came to light I had already said on these forums:

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If i ever get enough people for an all scrapper STF when it comes to fighting the AVs its "auras off" or fail.

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Thats because the scrappers taunt aura will multiply their threat level from damage and steal aggro from my confront. I just didn't know how exactly and with so many people happy to key mash than test its difficult to get people to do tests but in also knowing how to suppress threat levels ie grant invis chances of keeping control are increased.

Now tanking in melee may hold aggro better but it can also increase chances of AoEs landing on the team. Now AoEs hitting the team is not so bad say if you have a kin to heal everyone up but we don't all look for certain sets to have in the team to make up for our lackings and make us better than we are and so need to trade one thing for another.

I like taunt for the flexibility of going up to any AV without a care in the world about what sets are in team and often having the potential to keep everyone safe because only concept matters.

My tanker when ranged doesn't lose aggro to a scrapper with the aura on, she only hopes they don't use confront on an AV. My scrapper when ranged can lose aggro to a scrapper with the aura on. Both are heavily slotted.

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I knew my Brute was holding agro from a taunting stone brute by something other than magical means. I must just have done so much more damage that my threat rating was higher. Which makes sense to me at least

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A brute attacking an AV and taunting will stack higher taunt durations the AoEs upon them will be on all those around them. Fortunately in the CoV game whose in Melee? MM pets maybe, another Brute, a well def'd stalker and besides all that there is an abundance in shields usually. CoV has way less use for a Tanker AT.

I haven't had problems taunting at range with a scrapper with a taunt aura but then I slot taunt.

And no we haven't all been thinking we have been doing something when we have not. You don't need to know the maths to know what your doing as observation alone helps. Those that thought stealth powers effect Tanker aggro were right, end of story, how they knew doesn't matter. Neptune can be found by either maths or a telescope. Observation is the easier option and some may of failed on that.

People who play tankers have different mindsets. This new info is barely going to change a thing for those who have add taunt durations etc because they felt that they needed them and for those that understood that if a scrapper taunted aggro would go elsewhere and warned them not to. For many of the observant Tankers they can only play as normal even keeping aggro off of entire teams as normal and as far as totally preventing some AVs from laying a single attack on a team mate.

Furthermore those with taunt with one base slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits.

Fire Melee's secondary effect is -fight duration. Most other sets have tools that offer -fight duration "to self or someone else" within a fight duration. Build out of concept then adapt to the challenges it brings. I am not saying go fire melee unless you choose to so don't hate me if you hate it :P

We talking Gunslingers who I never had trouble with (but I slot taunt and my aura heavily) and banished pantheon spirits of pain who I could agree that once they lock onto who ever they see first thats it.

My opinions otherwise.

I have never known a blaster to pull from me without knowing why exactly that was and if in a nice team then my taunt duration might of not been enough. Usually they are trigger happy on or even around the yet to be taunted foes...wait thats pretty much only it. Another reason could be that the tank already has aggro cap.

Well over a year ago despite my warnings to the scrappers I have had Scrappers pull from me with their confront. One next to Marauder and one next to Babbage whilst they are also attacking while I am at range trying to keep the aoes from effecting the squishier members; which is nice considering for support we didn't have someone that can meet the damage with buffs for all. So over a year ago I knew what could happen. I didn't know exactly why it happened.

Firetanks have it bad with a non auto hit aura, Stonetanks have it bad with recharge and mobility, Invulns have it bad with no damage effect and Ice is the easiest aggro bunny there is that people can be so overly confident about they get complacent and so all can lose aggro.

All this talk reflected me to this. Bridger was the Man on Tanks imo


3 things :P

My taunt has been 6 slotted for a long long time and does in fact get altered to suit a specific task and my invincibility aura has about 3 slots of taunt and none of this is without my reasons. Its just because not everything is the same and I keep tabs on differences. Some people say that experienced tanks don't need taunt and those people are full of [censored].

My scrapper when pulling a boss from a tanker will get better at it.

We can definitely say "no invis pls" on our tanks not only so that we are sure to be seen but keep a high threat without being unsure as to why we are saying it.

All this stuff has changed my scrapper pulls only really.

I have just edited in the changes to my herobuilders etc and one thing I might suggest now for TA is fitness pool.

New Numbers for Mace

Looking at those numbers for Mace, they are literally all over the place making it impossible to have redraw time properly calculated in each attack and so Babs (I believe) informed claim that all weapon sets have redraw accounted for was wrong or misleading. Looking at those figures I wouldn't trust the redraw time on any weapon set unless the figure for the redraw time was simply a redraw time spread across all of the powers of the set (in which case 2.75 secs is still rather a lot and leaves me doubtful).

Good idea to edit the builders to suit. I still use Sherks for attack chaining.

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Yeah, just saw it. Basically we where right and they where wrong all along.

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What else is new, haha

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Sorry but I am lost on the part where you guys had said anything remotely connected to this and anyone else being actually completely wrong at all (except one person).

Even what Maximillion had said is a general rule worth going by and the fact that scrappers can pull from some tanks is nothing new but it takes taunt (the effect) to do it as nothing overrides taunt. The taunt is a 60000 threat multiplier and thats a bit too much for anyone to overcome without taunt.

My pulling of bosses from Tankers by my Scrappers with their confront gains a bit in probability from knowing the range factor and thats about it.

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I'd understood that tank aggro trumped all other aggro, but from this it looks like I could be wrong; can anyone else shed light on this?

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and the general rule of "Twice the Duration of an existing Taunt to take aggro" is still a good general rule to follow. But, much like Euclidean physics, there are some edge cases it doesn't quite cover properly.

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So, a scrapper who is standing in the mix of a bunch of guys, with a Taunt Aura, tossing out attacks left and right, is going to be nigh impossible to steal aggro from by a Tanker relying solely on Taunt at Range. Taunt WILL do the trick if the tanker gets closer and tosses an attack or two into the mix.

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If i ever get enough people for an all scrapper STF when it comes to fighting the AVs its "auras off" or fail.

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Theres one thing knowing what to expect and another in how it is to be expected. If you know that falling out of a window might break your legs you don't need to know how it breaks your legs to avoid it.

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Yeah, just saw it. Basically we where right and they where wrong all along.

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..and what have you already said about it? I looked for your post on it and came up short.


I can remember someone saying that damage stacks with taunt in damage auras.

I actually believe it may of been Bridger.

I could be wrong but I do have a memory of an elephant and hence forth did say in the past that the damage stacks with the taunt anyway and this the threat multiplier must be how.

You know your in a dumb team when:

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Having an entire eight person team run towards a shadow cyst in the middle of a spawn of red enemies, then being the lone survivor of the sea of nictus, aggro and explodey fun.

"Guys - might want to back off, it's going to explode"
"There we go."
"No, I don't have any awakens, sorry."

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Swipe and Eviscerate are often considered the 2 most skippable so your skipping 3? I do suppose it depends on what your building for and how your gonna play but I can only hazard a guess at how the OP will play to understand properly what they'd need and so I won't.

In terms of damage to a group its great. So in the larger teams its more useful, but knock foes into walls to cause the least spread and away from other groups. It is my alpha them instead power at times.

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The DPS won't change if cast times are changed and recharge times kept the same.

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The DPS of a auto'd attack would change and the DPS within a build up duration would change.

On one attack if I did 100 damage with a cast time of 2 seconds and a recharge time of 8 secs then every 10 secs I can do 100 damage with that attack making it 10 damage per second. If they then make the cast time 1 second then itll make the attack do 100 damage every 9 seconds which is 11.11 damage per second with that attack.

With every millisecond of an attacks cast time shaved off you come closer to having 1 more attack added within a build up duration. Instead of having say 5 attacks within a build up any lowered cast time might mean I can now have 6.

To compensate they can do anything, adjust anything but more easily either damage per endurance or keeping the cast plus recharge the same. But the amount of attacks within a build up might change and so the cast and recharge might not be exactly the same.

Well I find Human Form damage a bit too weak to solely rely on and the Dwarf damage that bad I won't ideally team with one who can't also be an aggro bunny. Methods to deal with ones own voids etc are nice and I prefer secondary effects and damage.

Recharge time? Don't you mean cast time? But ofc as a result of a cast time change the recharge time could change with it to keep a certain amount of damage per second to an attack.

Gratz! Nevermind the time taken as there is slim chance anyone can actually fit in the entire game content within it anyway. Some people actually have that time spent on a character after 50 so there is no big difference.

I love them!