New Dawn

Its 100% possible but unruly teams is something to avoid. Being that unruly teams are impossible to avoid..give up now!

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No patron means no badge.

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Funny, I have not a single patron power with my EM/WP but still got the badge. Nothing forces you to take any patron power after completing the arc.
Take a patron for the badge, choose a patron who fits the toon's concept, but no power in any of the pools should have a saying in it as they are all basically useless for DB/WP.

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I said "No patron no badge" not "No patron power no badge" so it would be Black Scorpion if concept doesn't matter.

The power is useless for "your" DB/WP brute ofc it wouldn't be for mine but I have to go Leviathon cos of my concept. Yeah a pirate.

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Not /ss though.

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No I think its Fire/Fire and that would be why he is playing Babs. I will say Fire is subject to much in the way of secondary effects. Its not so much the no end recovery that gets me its the secondary effect of end drain that can be additional by fighting certain enemies that would not impress me. DA might be end heavy (to some) but at least it resists end drain.

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Shannon, the recovery is going to be a pain regardless of whether you are "low on end" or not. Even FA, with Consume, will have a very hard time keeping up with a regular loss of over 50 endurance every 120 seconds.

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The only effect self period stops you from doing anything. That maybe something they'd rather keep but people want to taunt and they're trying to make it so with the coding they have to make it only make sense to taunt. The greatest end drain doesn't come from toggles and half the toggles people might have "on" at the time could be unnecessary. No end recovery means no base end recovery and just toggle draining. I'd lose 10 end say over 15 secs from toggles so with a crash thats 37 end lost, my damage output is further effected once I can recover because I may be keen to recover and not lose the rest of my endurance. The def debuff hurt Invulns more than any set and I can see no end recovery hurting invulns again more than any set though it depends on what enemy we are up against and what kind of team we are in.

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I would challenge the remark that "The Devs are probably the best players at this game". Many of the Developers do not play CoH regularly on the live servers, although Castle and BaB do.

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Those not playing on live servers..I can't blame them

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During Playtesting, which is where this proposed change to rage was formulated, Castle will have tested isolated instances of running rage. This is not consistent with in-game experiences of actual Tanking or "Bruting". The fact that Castle had to use BaB's tanker to test it and did not have a Tanker of his own is proof enough that Castle does not have experience with real in-game high-level tanking.

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He has a Firetank and from what I can gather from what he said of his DA experience at 21, quite a good one, a give everyone a run for their money in pwnment. I tried to emulate what I gathered and ended up with a build that isn't cookie cutter at all to achieve it. Soloing large groups of Pantheon with all the secondary effects thrown at you was a lot harder with Fire than all the other tanker sets put together at that time. I wonder would he be worried about the tanking the STF with a Firetank..I think not.

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Please enlighten me as to when you see Rage being "a little bit of a buff".

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I already should of with what I already wrote. In a only effect self period I would have no active defense power at my disposal to save me but with this change I would. Sometimes problems exist because a particular target wasn't incapacitated. A rage crash with a sapper or dark ring mistress not held would be two of the most obvious answers. Instead of only effecting self and getting mullered I could whack em. Even against a debuffer I may say lose end over time from missing, its best to identify that debuffer, finish them and then concentrate on the rest of the group.

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[u]Solo:[u] over 50 endurance every two minutes just to keep your toggles up during the crash is not remotely sustainable. The upsides of Rage are greatly outweighed by the negative impacts of the crash. The only time it is remotely going to be useful is when coupled with the Geas accolade or Unstoppable, and even then you will STILL lose over half your endurance bar every two minutes, but simply regain end faster afterwards. At this point I doubt it is even possible to run all your Toggles + Hasten, and keep attacking during the crash, even if you are initally at full endurance (and how often does that actually happen in-game?).

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50 end would be severe. I'd rather no control which can instead lead to a loss of end against certain enemies so at least you don't micromanage all the time.

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-1.76 end per second during the -recovery

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Thats more than double mine.

Either way the no end recovery will mean "much less fun" and in case you haven't guessed "I'll never agree with it".

Castle iirc has a Firetank.

I like to think 'generally' all types of Tanks can "be made to" tank well +4 AVs, all types of Brutes can achieve +3 Heroes, all types of Scrappers +2 AVs and so would see blasters where I did anyway somewhere +1 with some mileage varying. 1 taunt on a blaster is certainly not enough. All melee taunt auras are preferably turned off with anyone kiting.

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After a nice and fast Citadel run I noticed some problems with the current blanking build I have for Iofiel and took some time to think of ways to improve the ways to "blank" AVs with her.

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Edited for political correctness

I think it would work on some AVs. Blasters have been known to keep aggro on damage alone and survive on outside buffs (No other melee in the team).

The recovery problem is a pain when on low end. For those that feel a lot in secondary effects like end drain on a large team with no end buff and lots to think about (no fixation here and so panning around much while fighting) this can be a big problem. I have staminaless toons and micromanaging endurance challenged characters by maximising dam per end is easier solo than in some teams. I won't like this change if its going to make the already fotm needy section of playerbase need a kin even more.

The Devs are probably the best players at this game and see a different world to most people. The ideal world. Where everyone plays to a preferred designed dynamic where this crash is effectively as bad as losing 20% def. Tanks and Brutes have a preferred dynamic that some people don't help you play to in our world. I think most of us can say that. By removing our chance to control upon running into certain worries and crashing we would be as vulnerable as we would only effecting self. Given the ability to control at this point (control per end = good) I still see the "whole" of the proposed change "at times" as a little bit of a buff.

The only reason to be in the areas of effects is fulcrum shift. If by being in the areas of effects I am going to be held etc then that means I can't fulcrum shift anyone. I'd rather fulcrum someone. Transfusion is for self when one has taken damage. If I am not within the areas of effects and aggro control is well handled then its only good for healing others and so I would see no point in being in the area of transfusion.

For me a kin whose always in melee isn't a good thing.

I take repel for those pugs with players who run away or don't go near the area of healing. The words "balls to this" are followed by bunching foes into a corner at times until some clever dicky uses frostbite XD .

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Thats like saying all patrons are a bad deal to the DB set.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, yes, you could say that... because they are.
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Its definitely the patron pick to me. The -fly sealed it.

[/ QUOTE ]Like I said DB brutes are nothing to go into PvP with and -fly is not remotely as useful in PvE. As a DB/WP brute it's highly unlikely that your build allows you to take and slot this one. As I say: If you have to take this power for concept reasons feel free, but for anything else it's just not worth it.

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No patron means no badge.

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Its so funny to see how many ppl all of a sudden say that the new rage crash is endangering other teammates........ rofl.

Fact is taunt isnt reqired at ALL.
Tanker jumps in takes alpha thats it, in big teams the mobs drop too fast for any taunt to be usefull.
If you cant kill a spawn fast enough in a full team your fighting way too high lvl mobs for the team which was never intened anyway.

If a team cant survive when a tank looses agro, well then the team cant play at all.

Lokk villain side, brute jumps in takes alpha and thats it, 90% of all brutes dont even have taunt and guess what....
it works fine without ppl dying all over the place and teamwhipes.

So pls stop acting as if your only concern is how dangerous the change is for the team.

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Taunt is a tool that controls enemy direction and placement of fire. It is also a tool that can lower DPS of enemies. Tankers aren't necessarily needed in every team but teams can perform significantly better with them. A Tanker without taunt control is better replaced by a scrapper and scrappers are widely considered less useful to the team than all other sets.

Tankers do much more than take alphas. Many teams could have the tools to make the taking of alphas not a requirement but often they don't, even with the tools, some look for a tanker to take the alpha. Sometimes using the tools is slower than letting a tanker do his bit. Tankers are among the greatest means for preventing other people from being in over their head, getting defeated and not having as much fun due to downtime, in short the tanker can improve pace from adding safety especially seeing as most of the taunt control on offer doesn't miss.

I look at villain side and see a completely different game where Tankers are not a requirement at all. This is down to the ATs with in it, news just in...they are different and the amount of resistance shields usually on offer tends to cap everyones resist. Its not a game where CoV players are showing CoH players how things are done at all its a different game that doesn't have people relying on the same dynamics mainly because it has different ATs.

CoH is round up and arrest dynamics to CoVs pillage through a village dynamics to me but most certainly to most people CoH is not CoV.

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It depends when the crash happens. Obviously a crash taking you to 10 end could mean that eventually your toggles will cost enough end to drop you in 10 secs. Invulns don't recuperate end well or resist end drain. No end recovery will hurt them more than anyone I can think off. I don't think its as sadistic as losing the ability to control though.

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DA Brutes have a much higher endurance use than INV. WillPower Tankers/Brutes' Quick Recovery AND Stamina AND +Recovery Set bonuses will all be disabled for the duration of the crash.

INV will have problems, but nothing compared to a SS/DA Brute.

Also, you are seriously underestimating the amount of endurance that 10 seconds of 0% Recovery will cost you on a team. it is considerably worse than a -25% Endurance crash, and we STILL have had no confirmation that the recovery debuff is replacing rather than adding to the -25% end crash.

How much Endurance can you recover in 10 seconds? That is how much Endurance "0% Recovery" costs you. NOT how much you actually USE during the 10 seconds. For my INV/SS Tanker: Solo, it would be around 34 End (assuming I'm not using Unstoppable or the Geas accolade). Teamed, anything from 40+ End depending on buffs.

I'd much rather see either a tohit debuff, or the endurance bar LOCKED at a certain value (ie, can't decrease or increase) for the duration of the crash.

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Nope I under estimate nothing because there isn't a set I don't play

I am basically saying that I am not interested in having to worry about endurance anymore than I do currently and as for what sets use and how end heavy they are that changes player to player.

In exchange for the no longer having our def debuffed its fair that our ability to control is floored. Controls and Defense are both survivability tools, some types of controls see more use in PvP for some people but if our damage is lowered our ability to control should be too.

An endurance bar lock would be pointless. If you use an attack it'll cost you nothing. If you use a toggle it'll cost you nothing. We'd all be looking forward to rage crashes. If it is locked in recovery then over 10 secs we lose a possible 21 endurance points.

With damage floored we wont get any good dam per end, we would then see ourselves only effecting self in terms of dealing damage. We would run toggles and control, taunt control or the other types. There are controls we like to use despite them being poo in damage. The dam per end drop won't effect how we look at them. They also offer us survivability. So if they drop our control then we would effectively have lowered defense in another way, be happy to run toggles and taunt but not do damage or control but rather gain end rec over the duration. So in effect we will be inclined to only effect self in terms of everything but taunt control.

I don't like the tohit debuff. Not everyone has an autohit aura, not everyone takes taunt and the whole point of the change to me is to make it so that the people in the team don't have to necessarily get aggro and fall during the rage crash.

In tanking or Brute tanking you have enough to pay attantion to let alone endurance so any major changes to endurance I don't fancy especially for those that don't resist end drains and also especially for those who don't resist def debuffs on the side of the game thats full of them..mainly Invulns in this case because they don't have quick recovery or any fast recovery powers. Small changes are easily adapted to however 25 end crash or 28 end crash the difference is peanuts.

On Shannon with just toggles costing end and no end recovery for 10 secs; it would mean a loss of no more than 7.3 endurance points...15 secs is 10.95 endurance but add a haste crash and its Its worse on most peoples builds I know that.

Yeah not as much as a worry for me as others but the others don't have to volunteer for more or much more end drain.

I figured about 1 eps on average would be lost for anyone who just settles for aggro control during that period and so instantly felt a cap on end recovery "1 eps" to pseudo lock an average end bar to run necessary toggles was fine. In effect you may wish to only effect self in all areas but taun but then those who don't resist end drain really can come a cropper but then I thought hey you know controls can prevent end drain, give us our end recovery and nerf our ability to control like ya do with damage and get that effect self scenario because it wouldn't be too worth it to do anything but run toggles and taunt.

The end crash as is and -999% dam and -999% control (except taunt) works for me.

An eventual loss of 50 end would be grossly unfair, lacking in fun and might make WoW a game worth considering.

It depends when the crash happens. Obviously a crash taking you to 10 end could mean that eventually your toggles will cost enough end to drop you in 10 secs. Invulns don't recuperate end well or resist end drain. No end recovery will hurt them more than anyone I can think off. I don't think its as sadistic as losing the ability to control though.

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No matter what they do. The ability to taunt and comfortably control during a crash period could be considered a buff to rage.

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Thats assuming losing aggro during drop was fair in the first place.

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Not fair on other people. I don't like people paying for my mistakes. I like me paying for my mistakes and so..

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Besides, Shannon, Ide argue that taunting during rage drop with 20% def and 25% end down could be considered highly dangerous in certain cases. So theres extra risk there without all this end nonsense.

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I wouldn't care about the danger to self. Danger to others is THE problem. Only if the team are needlessly increasing the levels of danger as if in an attempt to get us all killed do I have a problem with danger to self...I am obviously teamed with the enemy . Friends are meant to get you out of the mire not put you in it. Thats why players sometimes quit rag tag team ups.

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If, for example they put a slow effect on us for 10 seconds I could probably live with that cause it make thematic sense.

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Again thats effecting one set more than another. I think all power sets should be effected the same way. During a crash, KoB, Mass Immobs to Burn patch, Block of Ice, Stone Prison (that immob on the AV helping to lower dps thru range) could all be gimped in effectiveness -999% as well. Slows aren't to bad for tpers but -rechg will effect all powers and really hurt stone.

Thats like saying all patrons are a bad deal to the DB set.

Its definitely the patron pick to me. The -fly sealed it.

-999% dam is better than only effect self for the teams mistakes. Its not nice that the whole team should get overwhelmed due to one player not accumulating enough taunt duration prior to the drop and so I like it.

The -Def ain't a penalty to all sets and so some sets benefit more and have less to worry about from rage which may not be seemed as fair so I am guessing Castle is looking to replace that part with something else. On a given crash I wouldn't want to do anything other than taunt. If I attack I could see the remainder of my endurance disappear and so would wait for it to accumulate running toggles and taunting perhaps. If end recovery is set to 0 then there will be a drain of whatever the toggles cost and whatever any attacks cost. In those 10 seconds one could lose another 25 endurance which still needs to be recovered. Elec or energy brutes and Ice tanks may not give a hoot about it really as much as most of the others apart from dark and fire who would possibly be semi problematic with it.

I don't like tohit debuff in the crash as for some sets they'll may as well be effecting self without autohit taunt effects.

In the gym after completely knocking myself out through exercise I can feel some of the effects you may feel after being detoggled ie disorientated, drowsy, weak at the legs so easily knocked back. I wouldn't be able to put power into anything for some time after and so a chance to detoggle toggles like unyielding by losing endurance seems more than fine to keep but I wouldn't want that greater than it is. Rage gives us SS a single target attack chain to compete with Axe using Build up. Axe does much more damage without build up than we do without rage.

A 20% def toggle to a tanker would cost say 0,3 eps unenhanced. If rage removes 20% def to a toggle giving 20% def then the toggle giving you 20% def would then do nothing for 0,3 eps. Now I feel that 0,3 eps extra loss over the 10 seconds should replace the def debuff for starters so a loss is still there. 0,3 eps over 10 secs is 3 eps and so the crash could go from 25% to 28% to get on a base 100 end a 25 point end drain to a 28 point end drain or base end recovery could lower by 0,3 eps.

This is only for starters because not only did 0,3 eps get wasted but survivability was reduced as well.

Survivability is granted not only from the armours (passive defense) but active defense too and so along with damage being debuffed to the floor, holds, disorients etc could be too. Like a reverse power boost but I have no idea on how things are coded in. Some attacks do currently do poo dam but we need them for the control and they can outweigh the passive defenses in our survivability. The only effect self would of kept us from using them. The lower damage only makes us think twice about damaging attacks but not controls! So the ability to control which can outweigh def anyway should imo get a nerf during a rage crash.

No matter what they do. The ability to taunt and comfortably control during a crash period could be considered a buff to rage.

Gratz Lorrie

It can do. Not every team plays their part well enough to meet your expectations and add to that there could be plenty of other people who have more hp than you waiting for you to run in.

Best thing to do for more reasons than one is to be the one making the team and lead it. I always get taunt and remove alphas when possible.

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I thought the SS buff was that KO Blow changed from a clobber like power to a high damage power.

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Yeep. Can someone help us out here? I said my memory was cloudy about this.
Did I get the two confused?
Now you say it it does ring a bell.

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Knockout Blow had got damage!1!!!1!

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OMG

This whining really makes me angry.
There are so MANY powers in the game that are totally broken and underperforming to the degree of uselessness and you whine about a change to rage, eat some blues if you low on end.

Let me see, RAGE gives:

80% dmg buff thats TWO lvl 50 dmg IOS you can theoretically skip in your powers and STILL be about same as all other sets.

31% tohitbuff thats 1 lvl 50 acc IO you can skip in ALL powers.

SO this let you slot 3 end reducers in your attacks if you have end issues.

No other selfbuff in the whole game this overpowered, so stop whining about it beeing changed especially if its not a nerf but only an adjustment to auras......

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Having Rage brings SS up to the other sets. SS isn't overpowered at all. Rage has effects that not all armour sets give a hoot about and so I guess they're looking to penalise everyone over the crash equally.

After much though I think they should cap end recovery at 1 end per sec or have it stalled for 5 secs and go focus on something the whole playerbase might like. There was a lot of thought before there was a [censored] it

Easiest to play as well.

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In most PuGs or SG teams I think there is only ever the bundle in like lemmings and keymash scenario. My last effort on one against a cyst near normal mission foes and a EB and I was a stonetank...and oh yeah thats really going to guzzle up aggro fast with trigger happy squishies in a pug who wont listen and won't wait...

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Sometimes you get lucky and the first one in is a tank or scrapper who has some kind of taunt or damage aura up which tends to get the attention of lots of the nictus. That works pretty nicely at times and keeps them bunched up for AOE from the survivors and the smart Kheldian who was shooting it from a distance saying "stay back, fools!"

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Don't think I play tanks without an aura. The auras are smaller in radius than the radius of the nictus around the cyst and the nearest group with a boss had to be taunted too. Basically if people allow no time for aggro control there isn't any. Ofc on other tanks with different powers things would be better but you have to use and make do with what you got.

For the most obvious of concept reasons people go Necro/Dark but for the second most obvious reason I would think /Poison.

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Never give a second thought about debt

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T'is the true Firetank way.

Web Envelope:

* 17.88 second Immobilize (magnitude 3) to Target if (target = critter)
* 11.92 second Immobilize (magnitude 3) to Target if (target = player)
* -16% RechargeTime Enhancement to Target for 15 seconds
* -16% RunSpeed to Target for 15 seconds
* -16% FlySpeed to Target for 15 seconds
* -50000% JumpHeight to Target for 15 seconds
* -10 Fly to Target for 15 seconds

Looks good to me. As a Dual Blade there's a lot there I can't do.