New Dawn

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This build makes me able to stand toe to toe with AVs and then go afk.

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If yours is doing everything that this sentence can imply then I doubt the build has much to do with it.

I really don't understand why you would be put off just because the world and his mum has your powers...oh wait.

To be true tho, ppl can all have say fire/fire tanks and yet be different in what they're really good at.

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I wouldn't rely on being able to stack Vengeance for much longer. According to Castle:

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There are a few points that I want to iron out (exploitive stacking of Vengeance *is* going away once we get things settled)

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I never did, but people did like it was the only way to get the job done on STFs and that, before looking at the reasons for needing defense ie I got hurt? What with? How can I not be hit with it? Which often comes down to not standing up a tanks butt or something due to location or timing.

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What I cannot control I must destroy

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I love this. During the domination phase I'd like to see a damage buff to target if it isn't mezzed and Castles idea.

Your welcome and it was a shame you can't get on test server with your blaster.

In trying to imagine a tauntless tank and in doing certain tasks it could well mean that sometimes they may want to be a bit biased towards certain defenders for support or maybe the other players in the team are...get this..we need a and so on. I was really miffed at how Rads got to be so required if one wanted to go to bed at night whilst fighting Mary MacComber at one time.

As a Firetank myself I am stupidly happy with a sonic and team with one all the time. I could go tauntless with one. I could RotP alot and aggro may shift and then quite possibly no one would care. So there isn't always a need for taunt nor tough. Some Willpower tanker with no taunt may be considered a good player in another team and may of had things great right up until the PuG they met you in.

Versatility, flexibility, whatever, I do PuGs and I like my options and everything gets the "How will I tank it if I only had a so and so for support?" treatment. If I was biased about what types of defenders were needed for anything then I don't think I'd have room to complain if people were biased against me for having no taunt.

For Aggro control, Tanks like Ice/Fire for 99.99% of the game could easily wonder what the power was for and if teamed with a Bubbler, Sonic and Kin most the time could really have minimal use for it. So its not for everyone.

My firetank doesn't have tough and someone elses may not have taunt and so the 2 of us have chosen our limits.

Now as for RotP..take it!...6 slot it!!...love it!!

On a quick note, I use it for damage mitigation as I am taunt controlling multiple AVs at times. I likes it, I am not the only one who does it and I think anyone who wants to do stuff like that, can. It may take some faceplanty to pull some things off with some of the more challenging tanks or teams but certain things are better gotten by trial and error.

I think maybe Thorn Assault and Plant Manipulation would be a lot easier to create.

Some people did the TP trick with it. They all queue the power on someone far away and then recall friend them close.

Edit: Really love that Avatar.

I bet it was probably all mine from Saturday night (since edited). I came home drunk and was basically offering everyone outside.

I want to meet you in game Praf I would like you to watch me tank using taunt and cos your a mathematician if your interested have a look at threat mechanics with me. Some people play for fun and some people like to sink their teeth into testing things. I got a whole 3 weeks off anyways.

My tankers are always subject to teamwork. I can go from kissing everyone to kicking everyone . They aren't suped up as I like base models. They have a way in which they work, plenty of weaknesses and it can be worrying around people who are seemingly trying to lower survivability as one is trying to build up survivability. Yours will be better to some people than mine but we all have our different ideals.

Anyways I don't take taunt for efficiency its just one can direct damage entirely off of people better with it...yeah it can lead to being more efficient at times but thats not the reason.

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However, there was special code added for AVs that alows them to ignore Taunt sometimes. I can't remember how it works, but there where a lot of complaints when it went in.

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From what I recall they simply made Taunt no longer auto hit on them...
Could be wrong here.

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Nah I think there are too many people who think its impossible to keep AVs perma taunted. Some may basically phase, two might placate you, one might black hole you or one iirc would put you in a detention field and basically they can resist it which just means more duration, get closer or more recharge. There are runners and you could lose taunt on them if you don't keep up. I have had to stack more than one application on some foes to remove them from people at times.

Its not entirely defense based now is it.

All my scrappers have confront but anyways not many people say an Icetank is incomplete without Perma Frost.

I am not implying that all tankers should have taunt, only that it can add flexibility. Icetanks are lucky they don't get slowed, do hold aggro very easily, make the best recoveries but are unfortunate they have rubbish resistances. So ultimately I think "is there is an AV you would struggle with if it weren't for certain sets in the team or is so much as guaranteed to kill someone?" There is a lot that don't have to happen. If there is an attack that one shots me I am looking to make it completely unusable and hold aggro.

You can meet me in game Praf and watch me tank somit hard if ya like.

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All scrappers have Confront in their primaries. How many actually take it? Would you say "I won't team with a scrapper without confront?".

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I have scrappers with confront. Ofc I love to tank AVs with it. No AT is needed remember. Its adds flexibility.

Castle inherited some of his responsibilities without all the info handed to him on a platter. Some changes he may make maybe good, but there is always the worry that he could make things shift from: doable without power set bias so we can learn to value any concept - to only doable with select powersets...which would be a "fail". As it has been in PvP, making a powerset choice shouldn't practically be the only skill needed.

Through observation and testing you can know all you would ever need to know about taunt without even looking at the numbers. A lot of what's been done in physics has been done with the practical approach first.."ok we have made a perfectly good bomb!"..."and now we need the theory".

For me taking taunt isn't about getting teams, it's about potentially being able to go from less caring to absolutely not caring about what power sets are in the team as any tank versus any AV. You literally can go from basically needing to have a kin to transfuse everyones bobbing health bars to a stormie lightly only ever having to touch the tanks (any type of btw) healthbar up now and then with 02. My 02 is a specialized one designed for certain formations (yes tactical formations, not gank and spank) by being 2 end, 2 heal, 2 range.

It's much better to discover things for one self than be told "Why", but the tauntless Ice/Energy is never ever going to be always better than a Willpower with taunt.

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Using taunt skilfully and slotting it is useful.

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Edited for some real hard solid truth.

I am not in favour of everyone getting taunt. Its a selfless power. I like people to get it because its exactly that and then I live in hope of them finding out for themselves all of its uses.

Mathematicians who fail to get all the numbers, fail.

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Oh and Shannon cheers I'm honored probably won't be in game today but feel free to tell me anytime you are on union.

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I am on every server.

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Given it's ability to totally change the result of the model I wouldn't agree that it could be so easily dismissed but then I suppose that is the crux of what we disagree on, but as I said in an earlier post I'm happy to agree to disagree and carry on tanking, taunting left right and centre and loving every minute of it.
As an aside I'm still unconvinced of the currently accepted view of the maths of taunt (not by you personally Praf but in general) last night I tanked 3 Avs, We had wittled it's group down and where only facing the AV in every case but despite punchvoke, aura and regular taunts on 5 seperate occassins the AV's broke my taunt to nearly 1 shot a squishy given the unbreakable nature of the taunt calculation how is this possible? And no it wasn't a WP tank it was a INV, but given an average taunt aura duration for something that remains in melee with you about 15 secs say then someone must have exceeded my dmg by a factor of 15,000 this doesnt seem to add up can anyone enlighten me?

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Fancy meeting me in game?

I will be out watching Wall-E this afternoon, but send me a PM of when you're free.

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The only teams where nobody dies are great teams, not teams with great tanks..

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This.

A team where no one dies is more down to the performance of the whole team rather than one individual. That said I have seen bad teams held up by one or two really outstanding individuals.

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I have seen teams stand up on the back of the fact a kin was in it, or for the fact that a sonic was in it, or got lucky due to a bubbler was in the team. Take away the type of support they were getting and put in another they'd of failed. Some people seem to be lost without certain types of support versus certain enemies.

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Praf perhaps what you say is true, I have a WP tank but he is too low lvl to have any real experience of, what I do find somewhat objectionable is when you try and prove your point with maths ( a subject I love ) which seems to me incomplete considering your premise. ie Basically WP aura = no taunt aura. When in a mathmatical model of a situation this is not true, perhaps WP arua < any other taunt aura is a more accurate statement.

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Proving a point with maths is often sometimes seen as the only way to get through to some people.

I see RTTC as better than Death Shroud and Blazing Aura under -acc or -tohit conditions. Under heavy amounts of those conditions I rely on taunt. My last chance to hit figures at times may as well of read as "LOL!".

Some tanks don't like other peoples bars so much as twitching and the fact that there has been one twitch could of in another place versus another enemy meant a team wipe to follow. Takes a whole team to produce the right team dynamic.

OK I'd say quite a vast amount of the squishy team members I have seen, all seem to go out of their way to desperately try to get themselves killed. I'd say a lot of them expect a tank to save them from everything they create, magically defy game mechanics and in no way offer much assistance back. Mind you it is less boring but tedious when you don't want to have to [censored] around.

Willpower Aura; it is very much about scratching each others back teaming with one. Willpower doesn't have a heal but it fast regens. It regens best with mobs next to it and at the same time it holds aggro with mobs next to it. Thats how its designed. People can decide its not designed that way and wonder why the defender had got aggro and died thus leaving the team unsupported and wonder why the/their tank is so squishie and the regen is poor.

People design their toons how they want, thus having some flexibilities traded for some limitations and normally players by not finding a way to work within each others parameters, fail.

I wonder why at times an Invuln tank is made to be taking ranged energy damage at range when they could of been taking lethal damage in melee and given much higher defense.

Every concept has its challenges, some people enjoy challenges and actually look to overcome/get around them by working together to keep some level of control.

Willpower should have an increased pace, it doesn't mean everyone else will though but they can pretty much keep gauntleting like no other.

RotP, was better when you wasn't rooted to the spot but its untouchable duration is a full 15 secs, you can regain aggro, maybe fireball and taunt, and then turn toggles on. My toggle time is 6 secs which gives me 9 secs to play with.

Spines/Fire looks Impale and Burn.

Just so you know, I am not ignoring this. It's just that as I don't pvp its better that someone who does offers help.

No they don't. However it is unresistable which is very good. A trick archer with manuevers can offer approx 14% defense from 9% tohit debuff and 5% manuevers...making characters like super reflex at a 31% def average particularly happy.

People play the way they want. Whether or not the characters are designed to perform when people play that way is another matter.