Nethergoat

The first 'scheme' I ever worked on the market was vendoring recipes. I'd put in bids on ten stacks of level 50 IO recipes then run them to the Mutant store in Steel Canyon.

Nothing wrong with it at all, but for me the profits didn't justify the labor.

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EDIT: Except things that are "Buy one, craft, sell, pocket twelve million."

[/ QUOTE ] However, I've yet to find this situation and raises a question. At what level of profitability should I feel is good right now? Are you guys finding that a 1-2M net INF trade is too low? Should I *generally* keep searching till I find a 12M net INF trade? Or are 12M trades fairly rare?

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My experience is that the higher the profit margin, the lower the turnover. So to some extent the question is answered by the type of marketeering you prefer.

If you like active marketeering and want plenty of daily action, smaller profits that roll over faster are great.

If you like hands-off marketeering and are a patient sort, the big ticket items work well.

I usually do a mix- a few slots dedicated to small stuff so I have something to mess around with, a few slots dedicated to bigger profits that need longer to marinate.

Also, any profit is good profit.
Some folk are perfectly happy vendoring commons, some live to flip purples- there is no wrong answer. Do whatever you enjoy.

gratz!

Vendor muling works, but it's an awful lot of work for a minimal return.

on my baby brute I've been buying level 30 damage IOs for 10-20k and selling them for 200-300k. 3 million inf at level 12, all of it made while I'm off-line.

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Then there are others that think market manipulation is bs. Doesn't feel real heroic to sell something for 100x the actual cost just because you can.

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too bad the buyer sets the price.

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As a long tooth I feel sorry for the newbies without disposable.

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newbies have it better now than at any point in the history of the game.
as a 'long tooth' you should realize that.

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There is nothing worse then leveling and not slotting cause you dread the time it will take away from actually running missions to slot up.

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Yep, I really hated that in the old days before non-expiring IOs solved the problem for me.

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I for one applaud your effort and ability to find satisfaction ripping of others to turn a quick buck.

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except that the buyer sets the price.
i guess they're ripping themselves off?

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Quietly filling your coffer not because I'm stupid but because I'd much rather spend the night helping my team and others play the game not exploting them...

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I wouldn't make any bold claims to intelligence if you can't figure out how to make inf AND help your team.

the more carnage, the more fun.

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This is actually better than the other article I saw on Wired, which flat out said:

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So now, any user-created mission that is “exploitative” will get deleted, and users who played it will get their XP retroactively lowered, or even lose their character. So what counts as exploitative? One or two of the “exploits” are pretty obvious, but it’s really unclear where the line is drawn.

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The whole thing feels like written by a Rikti farmer who is pissed his favorite exploit got nerfed. Way to generate negative press with incorrect information.

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it sounds like it was written by someone outside the system who is able to clearly see its flaws.

it's a pretty obvious point to make.

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1. As a veteran of many a flame-war, some of them far more intense than this little dust-up you're having with the 'goat here, I can tell you this: posting that a war has left you feeling "emotionall distressed and out of sorts" is really, really poor policy.

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Heck, I haven't even said anything mean!

it's a good thing I've been using my 'indoor' manners, otherwise her noggin might have gone all Scanners on us.

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Why do you keep responding?

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My incredible psychic powers, obviously!

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erfectly valid for people to have. I have my opinion. You have yours. Telling me that my opinion is invalid is pig-headed and pointless. Because it will still be my opinion.

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You're entitled to believe the moon is made of cheese and the earth is flat.
Your personal adherence does nothing to improve the validity of either belief.

See, having an opinion is a different thing from the validity of the opinion.

It's not that complicated a point to grasp.

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The fact that the Devs have chosen to lash out at gratuitous power levelers should send up a red flag in your mind as to whether powerleveling is a good thing.

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It isn't good or bad, it just is.
And according to the devs they took issue with what they percieved to be "exploits", not with power leveling per se.

PL'ers have nothing to worry about as long as they stay away from the undefined "exploits" available via the MA.

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But the fact that Bad_Influence is backing you up an hour after I left an apology should throw up an even -larger- flag.

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I disagree with BI 99% of the time, but we share the belief that players have the right to play the game however they want, not the way some other player thinks they ought to.

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Nethergoat? Same goes for you. It was a mistake to take either of you off of ignore.

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Yeah, go and create your own cocooned little world where the only input comes from your clique of hall monitors and kontent kops who like to wag their fingers and pretend they're morally superior to the filthy unwashed who defile the game by <this space reserved for the evil du jour>.

I never ignore anyone for disagreeing with me.
Ideas that can't stand up to hostile scrutiny aren't worth the effort it takes to protect them from it.

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Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's a 'weak' position.

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This is true.
I cannot impose weakness on an argument, it is an inherent quality.

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My position is perfectly valid as it is an opinion.

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This is a common, and inaccurate, belief.
An opinion has no intrinsic validity, only what it is provided by its supporting logical structure.

The "all opinions are valid" belief is popular among folk who's positions float free on pink clouds of whimsy, untethered from reality.

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My response to your rebuttals of my opinion is 'respect that I have an opinion. Share yours, or leave'.

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A weak opinion deserves no special consideration just because it happens to be yours and you think it's finely formed and admirable. I'm not the type who compliments the appearance of an especially ugly child to curry favor with its parents.

I've been freely sharing my opinions here all day, as noted previously not necessarily for your benefit but for the public at large.

If you want a platform where your belief can tower like a colossus over the landscape, unchallenged by disagreement, I suggest starting a blog and disabling the comments.

Because that isn't how public forums work.


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Disagreeing with a lecturer is not lecturing. Disagreeing with an opinion and brow-beating the person who holds the opinion with negative appelations is lecturing.

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You have an interesting, if mistaken, definition of the word.

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You are dictating to me that my opinion is wrong.

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It is wrong.
What am I supposed to do, pretend it's great so you don't get your feelings hurt?

How other people play choose to enjoy the game is none of your business.


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Stating that 'Anyone' can hit 14 in a day is stating a false fact.

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Anyone suitably motivated can do it easily.
Fact, period.


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Outlawed = Against the Rules
Frowned upon = Not against the rules, but not liked.

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the devs have nothing but binary control over how people play- things can either be done, or not.
If they choose not to disable a reward path, players are free to follow it as they wish.

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The discussion is 'allowed behavior' but should it be supported by the community and the Devs? Or should we police our own actions to keep the nerf hammer from coming down on XP?

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This is what I call The Magic Pony Plan.
It's like the people who's solution for the inequity between the red and blue markets was "people just need to play more villains!"

People are going to play what they enjoy, and in this game they mostly enjoy heroes.
Likewise, people are going to play the TYPE of game they enjoy, and for most people that's going to be pursuing rewards efficiently.

Expecting players to "self police" is as realistic as expecting large financial institutions to " self police", and would be every bit as successful.

The 'job' of a player is to play the game in a way they enjoy.
Rules and enforcement are up to the devs.


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Should we encourage, allow, or attempt to socially restrict PLing?

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That's for the devs to decide.
Players are here to play, not legislate.

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Do we allow it? By allowing it as a community we encourage it. Do we frown upon it and apply a social stigma to it to keep the ban hammer at bay?

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Irrelevant.
On a macro level, these questions are the purview of people with the power to enforce standards, which in this game are the developers and nobody else.

If you want to dictate pepople's playstyles, found a SG and kick anybody who doesn't follow your rules. That's the only way you're going to have any power over other players.

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If you're going to continue with this method of action PLEASE Put me on ignore. Never respond to any comment I ever make, and live your life happily without me. Because I'm sick of people telling me how I should feel. How I should think. Which is -exactly- what you're doing.

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No it isn't.

You're entitled to think whatever you like.
But when you project it into a public sphere, I have every right to disagree with it and dissect its logical fallacies.

My arguments are threatening only to the extent that they're grounded in reality, not drifting untethered through a Utopian dream-world.

haw!

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Problem is, Goat, that the question at hand isn't AIMED at the developers. It's aimed at players. Asking players opinions. I voiced my opinion on the subject and you've attacked me (repeatedly) for it.

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I disagreed with you no more or less violently than I disagree with anyone else holding a similarly weak position.

You are of course free to interpret my behavior in the way that best reinforces your sense of victimization and persecution, but you didn't get any special treatment.

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Why?

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Your position is lame and needs to be rebutted.

And your response to these rebuttals ("pipe down and go away") has been instructive in its own right, validating the effort I expended on them.


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Either Add to the discussion or don't. But don't waste time standing on your own soapbox lecturing others about standing on soapboxes.

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Look, I don't care if you steal my rhetoric- I've got plenty to spare.
But please use it accurately.
Disagreeing with a lecturer is not itself "lecturing".

I'm not dictating anything to anyone- I believe in letting people play whatever game they want.

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YAY! You think that people should play the game within the Dev's limits. So do I! I also know that within the Devs 'natural' limits a player cannot solo from 1-14 in a day the first time he picks up the game.

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There are no "natural" limits to anything, there is only what the game allows and what it doesn't allow.
Anyone can get to 14 in a day, whatever their veteran status- that functionality is in the game. It is allowed by the devs.

You don't like it, great- don't do it.
Other players have different ideas of fun.

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Add in a team to powerlevel said newblet and you've gone into the Devs 'allowable but probably unfavorable limits'

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Is it outlawed?
No?
Then so what.

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Go beyond that into exploitation and you've gone beyond the limits the Devs have put in play.

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Yeah, well, the discussion here is newbs PLing, which is an allowed game behavior.
You're like a squid, when you get in trouble you squirt an ink cloud of irrelevancies to distract people from your floundering.

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Opinions were asked for. I gave mine. You ridiculed it. I responded. You ridiculed my response... Will it continue ad nauseum?

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I'll keep pointing out the hollowness of your argument and the feebleness of your logic when I feel it is called for, yes.

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And as most everyone else has said--you're providing a service that they are willing to pay for. For them, it's easier to pay more (sometimes a LOT more) to just buy it and slot it...vs. finding the recipe, finding the salvage, finding a University, etc.


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heck, I've overpaid for crafted stuff before just because I didn't want to zone to our base to make it myself.

=(

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I take this to mean "I make fun of others positions and opinions to make myself feel better, rather than adding to the conversation in question"

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Your habit of misinterpreting and misrepresenting positions contrary to your own is so reliable it begins to look intentional.

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Am I close?

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No.

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You're not adding to the conversation. Voice your opinion and be done with it, Nethergoat.

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It's exactly as OK for me to reply to your Fun Police lecture as it is for you to post and re-post it in the first place.

You seem to have a real problem with personal freedom.

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Pointing out flaws in others is a waste of typing.

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I'm never going to get through to you, but illuminating the rot at the core of your position for others is a worthy use of keystrokes.

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Disagreeing with me is -fine-. I don't mind if you disagree. Noone should, really. But when you deride others for having an opinion you frustrate and upset people. And that's just not cool.

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I treat opinions with all the respect they deserve, no more and no less.

Take the two basic opinions at play in this discussion:

1: People should play the game in whatever way they find enjoyable, within the limits set by the developers.

2: People should play the game the way I think they should because otherwise they're cheating themselves.

#2 wears its ridiculousness like a pink feather headdress.

If you want kinder treatment, come up with a better philosophy.

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Now here's a question. Is it worth the money to get the crafter badge so I can summon a crafting table? I noticed that regular old non-set IO's generally sell for a loss, but that may just be the really low-level ones that people craft for the badge and then just dump on the market. Does this turn around at higher levels or will all my crafting towards a badge be at a loss?


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I think Squez has a guide to getting Field Crafter somewhere- if not, I'm sure he'll pop in eventually with some expert advice.

I've never gotten the table, but it seems like it'd be handy for anyone using 'craft to sell' as their main source of income.

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Nethergoat... Did you even notice that you're standing on top of a soapbox pointing fingers at everyone else for being on soapboxes? Wagging your finger at people wagging their fingers?

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I don't care how anyone plays the game (not even you) which leaves me without an audience to lecture and scold.

I'm just mixing with the crowd, heckling the stuffed shirt on the platform trying to impose their definition of 'fun' on the whole world.

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But I really think this looks to be the case here. Am I missing something or are consumers just really stupid in this game?

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lots of people in the game are so rich they just don't care.

and plenty of others are happy to pay someone a premium to assemble the IO for them so they can just buy it, slot it, and get right back to gaming.

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I said it earlier. I'll say it again. Newbies shouldn't PL beyond 3-10 levels. They cheat themselves out of content, practice, and tactics.

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I said it earlier, I'll say it again- no they aren't.

All that stuff is STILL THERE after they hit 50 and they can examine it at their leisure.

It's their game, they can play it however they want, in whatever order they want.

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So sure. SOME Newbs might be able to run a Level 50 character without an issue. Others will be confused by all the power choices, mis-slot everything, and try to make a tanker that is Sup3rm4n. Complete with Superspeed, Super Jump, Flight, and Laser vision.

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Which is different from some moron leveling "normally" how, exactly?

Playing a lot of hours doesn't make you smart, information makes you smart. I've teamed with plenty of relative newbies who had things wired and I've teamed with a lot of vets who couldn't draw a straight line if you handed them the ruler.

An interested, engaged player can figure out how to play anything in this game in less time than it takes to roast a chicken. For some people, a thousand hours wouldn't be enough.

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3-10 levels CAN be okay, in my opinion. But Newblets shouldn't PL more than that.

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Wag your finger a little harder, Nanny, I don't think they're paying any attention.

I haven't been farming lately, but my baby brute has gotten about the # of IO recipes I'd expect at his level (14 right now).

I'll peel the Goat away from his purple vigil on the Black Market and do a couple of runs tonight.

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Also, if you level up in the AE, you'll miss a lot of badges and the accolade powers that come with them. You'll miss opening up Ouroboros and the Midnight Club and unlocking hidden contacts (redside) and TFs (blueside).

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ProTip for getting Oro without leaving the MA building:

"hey, can someone drop an Oro portal for me?"

Hop through and get the badge.

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But after you leave Ouroboros, you won't be in the AE building anymore. Then you'll have to, like, travel back to it. That's tooooooo haaaaaaaaard.

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Dang, hadn't thought of that!

=(

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I can say for sure that if there are several for sale, dropping 1 inf on a 2 million last 5 will not be low enough to get the next sale.

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I list thing with flippers in mind.

Pick a price high enough to avoid their lowball bids, but low enough to undercut their asking price.

Make them work for you.

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Also, if you level up in the AE, you'll miss a lot of badges and the accolade powers that come with them. You'll miss opening up Ouroboros and the Midnight Club and unlocking hidden contacts (redside) and TFs (blueside).

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ProTip for getting Oro without leaving the MA building:

"hey, can someone drop an Oro portal for me?"

Hop through and get the badge.

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Honestly, I couldn't care less what you do with your toons or how you play the game.

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Wow, that's a quick flip-flop from your previous post, where you stated

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No one should power level. Ever. Period.

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free advice:

Mounting a soapbox to make sanctimonious, absolute declarations is a really bad way to demonstrate indifference & tolerance.

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BUT, i don't run back and forth or sit in WW all day hoping to make a dollar, either.

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Neither do I, yet I somehow manage to kit my characters out with fun sets.

I must be magic!