Nemo_Utopia

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how does letting some control work for doms make things worse for controllers? i stopped reading your post after that because the rest probably didnt make sense either

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I'll put a consolidated answer here, and this is @Anglican and others, too:

First, we'll establish what is known:

1) Doms are not that great at PvP.
2) Ice Blasters and Controllers ARE (however, it is known they are not "walking gods" like BS/Regen and other power builds, and do not always do well against said build).
3) This is due to Mez (Hold, stun, whadevuh) + damage follow up to the mezzed target.
4) This works because a Mag protected target can still have that mag outdone, and even a split second of this drops ALL toggles.
5) Dropping all a toon's toggles drops the majority / all of that toon's resistances.

Now, let's look at what this does with the way things currently work:
People can still pop the old BF and other stuff...but they darn well do it BEFORE they are actually held (and you would be amazed at the number of people who don't, can't, or otherwise don't realize). SR, specifically is the set causing trouble, since it's doing what it's supposed to: protecting the user from one person mezzing through its defenses and protections...and giving ample time to pop a BF if said hero/villain believes they are in danger of having that protection overcome. Most control sets (Controller/Dom) have two holds: target and AoE. The combined application is Mag 6, and is easily reapplied within their own duration = Mag 12. If this becomes an untyped attack, then people who can do this (as well as the non-usual AT who can pull it off) will NOT have to contend with Defense....barring certain, specific situations. Not ALL sets have Mez protection, and also have varying levels. Also, not all sets have defense...and then to varying degrees. So to handle SR, we'll do an across the board buff/nerf which allows holds to be applied enough for Doms to succeed....and make at least Controllers and certain other builds that much more powerful as well, able to hold a target: period, barring perfect BFs and timing of their use. This is in addition to making Doms literal gods among PvP...we already know how much people don't like gods in PvP, but want balanced fights. Especially since that's what you CLAIM to want, anyway. So: we can go with what is OBVIOUSLY a bad idea, or we can work with something else.

Just a few examples, off the top of my head, that while certainly not perfect, are definitely better and more able to be worked/tweaked:
1) Buff Dom (specifically, Dom, since this prevents it from affecting other, balanced [or already unbalanced] ATs/powercombos) accuracy or tohit specifically against players as their Domination Bar builds, reaching a cap when it is full/active.
2) Introduce a mechanic that makes it so that a toon that is under a hold, sleep, or stun (Disorient) lose a certain effectiveness to their other powers, scaling so that it is proportional somehow to remaining protection (slippery slope effect...still overcomeable by enough protection [read: BFs] but a definite danger).
3) Give Dom holds (and other mez, but specifically Dom) a "lingering aura"...the effect wears off normally, but undercuts mez protection by a very small amount for an additional duration after it has actually worn off (so for 0-100, the hold is full effect, and then for 101-200, the effect undercuts mez protection by 1 Mag (or even only a 1/2 Mag level)). Enough lingering aura wouldn't do anything by itself...but would allow the application of an actual mez of the same type to do its thing.

That's just three, and took all of 5 seconds to think up. Oh, and:
4) Increase Dominator TD chances across the board. Other classes are fairly balanced without high TD chances: Doms obviously are not. An increased TD for Doms (not massive, but a step-up process every so often until the "right nubmer" is found) would allow this and give them a niche function that suits their playstyle, is thematic to them, and is synergetic with what they do.

My argument is NOT to keep Holds or Dominators useless, or make mezzes trivial: it is that you need to do so with a balanced thing, not by a board sweep effect or in some way that tips the scales the other way and just causes nerfs, bad blood, and a whole ocean-full of problems all its own. Now is this really so hard to understand, or do you REALLY need to touch our collective hands to the red-hot fire and get burned first?

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Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...

The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}

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Well, you can think the 500,000 other people with angel type names for my name. It was about the last attempt to name my concept toon (an angel fighting evil on Earth) before giving up on it. Anglican was a mis-spelling of Angelican, but it worked so here I am.

Anyway, right now, you have SR scrappers, Ice tanks are the main ones affected. Then, there are some others with lessar dependance on defense.

The point is, should an AT have to both hit a very high defense, and ALSO have that power not work? Thats the way holds work right now. Not only can you not hit them, but you would have to hit 3 or 4 times for it to do anything, and even then, it would only work IF they didnt have a 50 influ inspiration. Further, they dont have to burn the BF until they are held. So, they dont even burn through their inspirations very fast, as the odds of hitting a high defense 3 straight times is pretty low (1 in 20, to the third power?).

It just seems to me to be like giving an SR scrapper ~50% resistance on top of his defense, or giving a tank 90% resistance AND 50% defense. Its double covered, and equals total immunity.

On the other hand, if this was changed then PVE mobs would.......well, still be unable to break the protection and still not hold the scrapper/tanks/brutes through their mez protection.

I dont like powers that dont work. Holds dont work for doms in PVP. This is one reason why. BFs are the other reason, and really need some type of change to allow a doms main power to actually do something. Its one reason I didnt liek toggle dropping, because I think a tanks toggles should work, but there has to be a way around them (unresistable damage from blasters, AS, etc).

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Which..is...my...point. There SHOULD be a way around them. But there should be a BALANCED way around them, not one that specifically handles SR while making any other, non-SR player unable to defend at all. Cry "tweak", don't cry "nerf-the-world-because-I-don't-like-them-especially-this-one-guy."

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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...

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-_-...

Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.

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OH NO the doms might actually get to use their primary powerset? egads we can't let that happen!

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-_-....why do I bother? My point is, fixing this for Doms, breaks this for Controllers (and Ice Blasters, and...). It's like buffing ALL the AVs when only a few needed it, like the original boss change (again, all got the same buff, but only certain ones TRULY needed it), it's like the over-done rollback of TD (yes, TD needed rollback...but not this far), it's like the stealth vs perception arms race, it's like....do I even need to continue? The more people tell the Devs we'd rather have things become viable by breaking everything else related to them, the more we yo-yo, the more we get frustrated on both sides, and the more people like you all will cry nerf. If you can't understand that, then really, don't post on the boards at all, you're only hurting the playerbase and yourself. And, yes, this post is meant to be read as me being very snippy, because so far I only see a few people who want THEIR game improvement, regardless of what it actually means. And, if you paid attention, you might realize that I've agreed with your reasoning, but NOT your solution.

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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...

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-_-...

Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.

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This would only affect stalkers, brutes, scrappers and tanks. As an invul tank, I have had PVE mobs taken down unyielding once ever (from level 12 to 50). It wasnt due to defense, it was having a mag 12 or so to holds. Same for scrappers, they have mag resistance already. Further, everyone has the instant "no holds" pill for a mere 50 infamy/influence.

Basically, these type ATs are double dipping. They cant be mezzed because they cant be hit, plus they have mez protection. It should be one or the other, not both. If I have to hit you 4 times for it to work, is it fair for me to also only hit you with that attack 1 out of 20 attempts (5%)? This makes it not just really tough to break, it is now impossible.
If that is the desired result, why not just make the AT immune and be done. I think this is something the devs have just not considered.

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Well then, that's why you're Anglican and i'm Episcopal (sorry, really bad joke...moving on)...

The point I'm making is that untyped = bad. There are sets and builds that will be unnecissarily burdended by this change, to specifically handle a specific issue had with some. And gee, WHERE or where (other than...everywhere) have we seen this solution happen to something and just wreck things? The point isn't so much that idea itself is terrible, it's that it is too far in the right direction. Too much of a good thing is STILL too much, and therefore a bad thing. I'd agree...certain specific powers and power combos should be scaled back in regards to this...but scaled back does not mean "annihilated." {edit} much less "annihilated across the board"{/edit}

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Ok, if my Ill/TA is in Siren's Call, has SI on and fires a Flash Arrow, the SI stealth would be at 501.5(due to the cap) and the Target of the FA would be at -450 Perception, giving my Ill/TA an EFECTIVE stealth of 951.5?
Or ami I just C R A 2 Y




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Yes, that would work (assuming your target was getting NO +perception...buff, especially being capped or overcappedcould counteract this...Flash Arrow would be less effective)...but yes, you are C R A 2 Y [/color]

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you can always get buffed to get more mez protection or ranged defense from a shield...

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-_-...

Yes, but then, to prevent mez, you NEED to have a mez protection power buddy, or a Force Fields friend to buff you with whichever-Bubble. I'm all for teaming up and taking down foes, but requiring people to team AND get insps to protect from Mez is another layer of aggravation most people don't need in PvP...and, as anyone will tell you, NEEDING a specific power/set-of-two-or-three-powers/AT to keep Controllers (or Doms, or Ice Blasters, or...) from mezzing eveyone instantly no questions asked is a MAJOR no-no. Then, of course, there's the PvE imbalance: you thought mezzing enemies were bad BEFORE...well, yeah. I'm just pointing out that the road to Hades is paved with good intentions. Some solutions cause more problems, and that would DEFINITELY be one the devs would regret. An excuse for a "fix" is STILL an excuse.

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ooh i really like that idea of control attacks not being "typed" for defense to defend better against them

they'd still be "ranged" attacks though, so the positional defense would still work, but you'd still hit more often against the regular types of defense

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And on the NEXT episode of "Good idea, Bad idea"...I agree, BFs need to be handled more appropriately (the top tier really shouldn't allow someone to say "wow, those 3 Cons/Doms can't hold me for 90 seconds!"), but this is a prime example of a BAD idea. Untyped other than ranged means that any given powerset has perhaps MAYBE one power to defend against it at ALL. (Exception: Super Senses, I believe) Psi is an example of a not-very-well-defended against type, but untyped throws defense (AND RESISTS!) out the window. Let's look for a somewhat more reasonable solution.

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I played Hero side, and I tried an Inv/Axe build, and an NRG/NRG Blaster.

The Axe Tanker did poorly. The night I went on, it seems the villains were all testing the high-level Elec Brutes and Thug MMs. With the rampant Energy damage from Electric Melee flying around, combined with Inv's low Energy Resistance means I didn't last too terribly long. Axe is all lethal damage, and since everyone and their brother has S/L resists, Axe does pretty lame damage.

The Energy^2 Blaster did much better: Energy damage was a godsend, as I could actually do damage. I spent a lot of time flying around Sniper Blasting people... Anyone who TP Foe'd me was met with Nova. BOOM!
I now know what Gang War is designed to do. Swarm a Player with so much crap their computer stalls, ensuring an immobile, inactive target.


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Re: highlighted text...
ROFL! BEST EVER.

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Remember folks, gang war has a secondary effect: it debuffs enemy framerate! This is, perhaps, the best debuff EVAH. It is, sadly, not slottable

Just replying to the last post to say:

STIIIIIIIIL canNOT zone into RV.

ANYother zone (including missions, bases, etc.), hero side AND villain side: roger-doger, zoning as normal, even with graphics at "we're lagging like a Beta event, Captain!"

However, even with all graphics set to "Warp 10, Captain! (aka "oooooooooooooooooo, featureless masses with warping dimensions" and "frame-rate is capped, but I can't see @#%$!"), fluff off, and every combination otherwise (optimal or sub-optimal): zoning bar goes to 1/5th, stops, computer freezes (graphics crash).

This is the same thing that happened in Beta...except that by setting graphics way down, I could still zone/dostuff. If having an Aegia is the only way to access the new content, color me extremely dissapointed. You guys KNOW Aegia is far from the only graphics card out there: make it work for other cards too!

And I have an NVidia, for those curious...

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How would an energy blaster knock you out of the sky if you were flying?

Knockback just sends you backflipping while in flight. You have stun protection, so they can't drop you with Total Focus easily.

Superjump has a slight disadvantage, but you only spend a few seconds in the air with SJ to be vulnerable.

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Because every Blaster and their grandmother has Air Superiority (slotted for Accuracy too!). I should know )_)...(_(...so Mr. Energy Blaster (although I'd expect Elecs to do it more, since they are 100% Eng while Energy Blasters tend to be 60/40 or 80/20...nm, I take that back, the rest is S/L, so yeah, they'll do it just as much...) will just Fly (likely following you), use Air Superiority, watch you fall, and finish you off...I, for one, intend NOT to use this cheese, because my established modus operandi works better anyway.

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I still dont get it. How is this different from anything else? No set has -Fly resistance that I am aware of so wouldnt this trick work on any Flyer? Knockback protection will not protect you from -Fly that I am aware of.

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-_-...missing the point. It's not that you're more VULNERABLE to Air Superiority, it's that the use of it will become that much more common. Right, wrong, left, right, up, down, or otherwise, it's just being pointed out that this becomes a superior tactic because other tactics suddenly become resisted, in addition to most of their normal damage. It's not any different, it just means it will be more common.

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How would an energy blaster knock you out of the sky if you were flying?

Knockback just sends you backflipping while in flight. You have stun protection, so they can't drop you with Total Focus easily.

Superjump has a slight disadvantage, but you only spend a few seconds in the air with SJ to be vulnerable.

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Because every Blaster and their grandmother has Air Superiority (slotted for Accuracy too!). I should know )_)...(_(...so Mr. Energy Blaster (although I'd expect Elecs to do it more, since they are 100% Eng while Energy Blasters tend to be 60/40 or 80/20...nm, I take that back, the rest is S/L, so yeah, they'll do it just as much...) will just Fly (likely following you), use Air Superiority, watch you fall, and finish you off...I, for one, intend NOT to use this cheese, because my established modus operandi works better anyway.

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From the latest patch notes...

• Recluse's Victory: Players can control Heavy units again. A character can only control one Heavy unit at a time.
• Recluse's Victory: Alternative “sally port” exits have been placed in both hero and villain bases, to help alleviate front door camping. Each base has two new doors near the temporal portal on the ground floor. These are connected to 5 doors inside the zone, which will be randomly chosen each time a door is used. The outside doors are not guarded, so players use them their own risk.
In the hero base they appear as manholes, in the villain base they appear as sewer entrances.
• Recluse's Victory: Fixed more bugs that caused captured Turrets to disappear or spawn in the wrong location.


I think the sally points will definitely prevent base camping. Though I expect people to complain about the random part...

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Wait. Wait. Waitwaitwait, wait-wait....wait. OK. I just wrapped my brain around the devs implementing player ideas AND fixing bugs...AND while before the patch releases, not to mention to actually fix zone problems! Woo.

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Well, see, every time I have had a 1 on 1 with my Brute/Tanker/Scrapper vs. another tanker/scrapper (brutes generally being easy to kill) it has always ended in a stalemate, unless I try to drop their toggles for a victory, the fight generally doesn't go anywhere.



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Dunno how many times I've pointed this out on these forums, but the devs have said that the PvP game is not balanced for 1 on 1 fights, so if you find the 1 on 1 PvP experience unbalanced, that's because it is.

Lobbying for toggle dropping because otherwise 1 on 1 PvP is unbalanced (2 tanks getting nowhere, for instance) will have no traction, nor should it.

If you are having trouble in a 1 on 1 PvP fight, get help. Toggle dropping is not required, and was only included for Arena battles because Issue 5 and ED had not yet arrived.

Toggle dropping is an old arena kludge that was left in too long, and will probably entirely disappear in an issue or two..

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I see a half truth here. Yes, the ORIGINAL IMPLEMENTATION of Toggle Dropping was an Arena Kludge...and was so high in the percentages BECAUSE (like you said), I5 and ED hadn't hit. But I don't see it going away. It is still a feature that adds an extra, if small, dynamic to PvP, and while the original was ridiculously too high and the current far too low, there IS a middle ground somewhere...we may not see it for an Issue (or three...), but I think it will come.

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I hope that Ghost Widows PPP is just like hers i would be able to cut threw alot of heros that it would acttually kinda tone the balance between heros and villains

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Don't we WISH. That level of Magnitude is just plain crazy. Now, a Mag4 (or heck, 5) would be great....but getting an AV's TRUE signature attack....eesh, you have any idea how much gripe there'd be?

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First time on test last night! Went into RV and I was not able to jump through the legs of the statue holding the globe. It was like the cape was there but invisible waiting for villains to take control so it can show up.

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Yeah, Recluse's skirt is definitely a geometry feature that is always there, even during neutral/hero zone control. This makes it easy on the coding, since they can keep the zone geometry and not have to revert it based on control. Graphics can be an easy visual switch...geometry would require everyone to reload the zone, more like than not. And we ALL know how much complaining THAT would cause! I say keep it the way it is: it's better than the alternatvie.

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I haven't logged my blaster onto test yet, but it seems that the heavies on the hero side may be more powerful than the arachnos ones (big surprise considering how much more powerful longbow is than arachnos in the other zones). They seem to cycle high damage attacks faster, whereas the arachnos decides to toss in some web stuff instead of big orange numbers. Also do the hero heavies spawn those seeker drones in addition to the mech? So you have a heavy and a seeker or two floating around? Or is there a chance that when you hit one of the heavy station you just get the seekers? idk, I guess I could load my blaster and find out, but I'm sure lots of people know.

Frosticus

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The Vill heavies are actually much more powerful imo, the problem is that people are not using them right. They suck at range while it seems the hero heavies are better at range, if you have a vill heavy send that big [censored] into melee range and watch it 1-2 shot heroes, its rather amusing

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what is the best way to get them to go into melee they seem to want to just throw webs on everything

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I haven't actually used a heavy, but I have played a Mastermind, and from my understanding, they use controls identical to the MM pet controls. Use the "goto" command to tell your beastie to move right next to an (or into a clutser of) enemie(s), and then use the attack command. If it's IN melee range, it should prefer its melee attacks. If you're not a mastermind, you should just be able to use "petcom_all goto" (make it a macro or bind, for ease /macro GoT "petcom_all goto" or /bind chosen_key petcom_all goto), and a targeter like the Teleport targeter will appear: click where you want your heavy to go. If you ARE a MM...you better know how already, but PM with your situation and I'll tell you how YOU can specifcally "/petcom_all att agg" once it's in melee range will get it fired up, but make sure you have the desired hero targeted, it will attack that hero, and then repeat the cycle: move, attack, move, attack. Hope that helps!

{edit} If someone has experience with this or knows AI issues that make this fail and something else work (or just lets something else work ), pipe up and let us know!{/edit}

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I found a nice Stalker (Stalkerbot1 I think?) that wanted to test it as well and he proceeded to let me wail on him for a bit.
I had FA(2 slots for ToHit)/Buildup(1 slot for ToHit)/Invince(3 slots for ToHit) and 2 Accs in all of my attacks - pretty accuracy heavy build. Without his Elude I was hitting pretty consistently. When he popped it on I was completely floored. I believe my numbers were at about 18% with buildup - and around 12% without. I added one Large Acc Insp and got it up to about 22%.
#5486727 - Tue May 09 2006 01:37 PM

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Absolutely true. Seen it often during many hours in RV. Best strategy to exploit: elude AT loads up on heavies then uses them with impugnity since none can ever hit their master -- except with the occasional buildup/aim, and that is easily overcome by an aid self or two.

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The more I play in RV with my EM/SR Stalker and my DM/EA Brute the more apparent how bad it is. I was chased and hit consistantly with Elude on this morning by both a Katana/Regen and some sort of Ill Controller and was unable to lose them and escape. THey could see me at quite a distance and they NEVER failed to hit me.


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Totally false. Never seen anything even remotely like this happen after many hours in RV.

***

Glad to see i7 downloading on live. Might stop this thread from getting increasingly far-fetched and self-serving.

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Haven't we been over this before? You know, the whole reality thing? Differing experiences doesn't make yours automatically valid and someone else's automatically false. For example, if I were to tell you that in ONE DAY, my Blaster had 16 even-con minion targets in range of Nova, used Aim, Build Up, popped Nova...and didn't hit anyone with "streak breaker" in effect...then I obviously must be lying, simply because this has never happened to YOU (even once, I'd bet). Yeah, the odds are something like 6.5536e20 to one (that's 655.36 QUINTILLION, or 655,360 QUADRILLION to uno for you non-sciency types)...guess I should buy a lotto ticket. Reality doesn't wait for your mandates, man...cope with it. Accept that your experiences differ from others, and that in the course of testing, you (or they) may be an anomoly.

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How many of you have faced a blaster now with the new toggle drops?

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Negatory. I have also not had the chance to test AS a Blaster...since zoning is still crashing on Test. Waiting for the fix, will report when that changes...

Couldn't think where else to post this...considered "bugs", but this seemed the most appropriate spot, since it involves GETTING to Grandville: Various zones with elevators or doors that use intermediary space are currently "stucking" people, but not in a way that /stuck can fix. The reason: you apprear in the space you normally can't access: inside the elevator or behind the door. I assume this would happen in any similar portion Grandville. I hope this is being looked at...cause I've had a problem with it just about in every zone other than Mercy.

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Aren't we the stars of our own comic book universe? Should we, as the star, be weak against others?

Aw, just my thoughts on the matter. Sorry for sounding so grumpy.

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"...when everyone is super, no one will be" - Syndrome, "The Incredibles"

If I'm the star of my own hero universe, then I'm going to win. If you're the star of your own hero universe, you're going to win. So if you and I meet up, we're always going to draw, or find parameters where we both win.

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I didn't say anything about winning constantly...you just assumed that was what I was talking about.

Heroes do fall, but they do valiantly. They fight a knock-down, drag-out rumble with villains and they sometimes lose. Notice the key word there...sometimes, not "all the time".

Villains...would any of them be any good if they lost all the time? Of course not. If they lose, they always vow to come back and get revenge, which they do.

The point I was trying to make is that the numbers of victories and defeats for each type of hero and villain are slanted to one side or the other. With my hero, I'm going to give you everything I've got and if I lose, then I lose. Getting taken out consistently time after time with my tank from two assassin strikes is not what I call fun. Playing a stalker and getting two-shotted time and time again by a couple of blasters after I come out of Hide isn't no fun either.

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Also consider how hero/villain fights work in the comic books. Two people of similar AT tend to have fairly even chances. But then you see the people who aren't evenly matched in power type (NOT power LEVEL), and the exploit comes in. That's where teams come it.

On a similar note: people have mentioned being essentially forced to take Leadership for PvP. I, myself, am a tremendous advocate that people of ALL ATs should pick up Leadership (especially after ED -_-...), and see how much of a difference makes, not just in PvE, but PvP. However, I also see that forcing someone to take a power to be effective for a purpose or effectiveness seems weird, and is frowned on, "build locking", as it were. I'm all for the recent "resistances" they're throwing into the togs (Taunt, Placate, etc.), but wonder what this means for PvP: will players be truly sub-par without them, instead of alternately effective? This is a balance that should be carefully approached...the way Taunt effectiveness seems to be.

To be truly on topic: this taunt change seems good, overall, but like others I think is currently a bit low. Also, the "picking a power/slotting just for PvP" is part of the previously mentioned wall for casual players who PvE but aren't die-hard PvP. It's been mentioned that Perma-taunt is a perma-mez...but so is perma-debuff and perma-buff. These seem similar to me, since Taunt is NOT a hold, stun, or fear, but can be seen more like KB and Immobilize: it makes it harder for the target to do what they want, but not impossible while under the effect (okay, perm-KB is a tad different...). I think Perma-tuant SHOULD be possible...UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. Making a Tanker able to perma-taunt the target he/she is completely focusing on makes sense...a single Tank perma-taunting a team of enemies while targeting only one of them, especially if they're resistant, (unless they're all right on top of each other) does not.

Hope that's all not too confusing...

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If the "taunt ping-pong" isn't acceptable as a tactic to use in PvE, then why isn't getting multiple Assassin Strikes within a few seconds? After all, we really don't have any defense against three or four stalkers coordinating their AS to hit at the same time. Why can't tanks use group tactics with other tanks?


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How is this different from multiple blasters hitting you all at once? you have a little more reaction time, true. However the principle is always going to be true. Many will win over 1 or few. 1 on 1, can a stalker beat a tank? maybe, but the battle coudl also end in a stale mate. Or the tanker could be the stalker if he doesn't run all without tactics. Heck, a tanker one shotted my stalker before. (Rage + KB)

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Also the blasters aren't all hitting you with 400+ points of unresitable damage.

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Each individual Blaster? No. All together? Yep. Plus what is usually considered, and I quote: "a butt-load of resistable stuff too"...generally considered enough to take down the hardiest har-har.

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If you read what I said closely, I said you're flat out wrong.

You are.

But keep posting. You say something wrong long enough, it's still wrong.

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(*Looks around*) (*checks reality to make sure that normal filters and laws apply*) Yeeeaaaaaah, somebody needs their reality check. You SAID he's wrong...but that doesn't make YOU right. Just a thought for the guy who seems to be unable to grasp use of English, definitions of words, and context.

@Dianeces : Yeah, the WB Nukes have a drastic effect on even the hardest AVs and Monsters (speaking from both Hero and Villain experience), so I'd assume that a team that decided to drop an entire trio (or more than one, or save trios to chain the effects) could weaken the Sigs enough that they could be dropped. I haven't tested that (STILL can't zone in...cursed graphics crap-out), but I'd think it's a safe bet.

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Also, can a Tank defeat a Brute? Tanker damage is weak, and they don't have the benefit of Fury.

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Tanker base damage is more than brute base damage, and their defense a helluva lot better. My tanker has never lost to a brute in single combat. Brutes are not a challenge, anymore. Like you said, Scrappers have a decent chance, As do Blasters... but Brutes?

Brutes in their current PVP incarnation are quite pathetic compared to the other melee archetypes. Fury *needs* to be fixed. Badly.

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Well put. A Brute fighting a Tanker is usually a long drawn out fight, but due to the way Fury functions in PvP the Tanker will usually come out on top.

If a Brute could get their Fury building, though, that would be a very enjoyable fight.

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And you're not wrong, either. I've seen what happens when a Brute with a Fury bar (say, from fighting at a hotspot) suddenly engages a tanker. Usually, the Tanker thinks he's fine (especially since the Brute is likley a tad low on HP at the time)...until he suddenly realizes that the Brute just walloped him for something akin to 8 times the damage he normally does! Now as soon as they fix Fury, those 1v1s will be much more interesting...

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well placate is broken now (or nerfed, who knows)

and scrappers > stalkers 95/100 times

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What's broken about it?

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Good question.

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I hope it didn't appear that I was saying the heavies needed to be nerfed. No, I think they got that part right.

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I don't know. I mean, a heavy hit my tanker for 1700 points in one shot today. I definitely felt the pain of playing a defense-oriented set when heavies were around.

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I believe that hevies, even though they are pets, will be treated as critters for the purpose of "accuracy scaling"...but this is non-confirmed, and should be looked into.