Natsuki

Hmm, good point, lemme plug in the values into the formulas real quick.

Endurance Cost = Damage Scalar * 5.2 * AoE Modifier
Recharge Time = ((Damage Scalar * AoE Modifier) - 0.36) / 0.16

If we try.. AoE modifier = 2.5 for Scrapper Spines we get:
1.09 * 5.2 * 2.5 = 14.17
((1.09 * 2.5)-0.36)/0.16=14.7

So, that's not the right modifier.

1.09 * 5.2 * 2.25 = 12.75
((1.09*2.25)-0.36)/0.16=13

So, we get close to the correct Endurance Cost, but, the Recharge time is wrong still for Throw Spines. Also note, most AoE's use a 2.5 balancer.


Applying this to Fling Thorns for Doms.
0.9 * 5.2 * 2.5 = 11.7
((0.9 * 2.5)-0.36)/0.16=11.81

Which is definitely not the right modifier, and we'd have to increase the modifier to get it "correct".


Looking at Claws Shockwave.

Shockwave damage is 62.56, Recharge of 12.1 (15.125 with the "secondary effect" factored out), and Endurance of 10.52 (13.15 with the "secondary effect" factored out).

Damage Scalar is 1.0 on the mark, formulas are:
1.0 * 5.2 * 2.5 = 13
((1.0 * 2.5)-0.36)/0.16=13.375

So, even Shockwave is costing more than it should Recharge time wise. It's endurance is coming out to be correct.


So, Throw Spines is over-performing, with both Fling Thorns and Shockwave under-performing. That is, if they're intended to be balanced around hitting 2.5 enemies (The AoE modifier).


As far as the Scrapper Impale (Which is the same damage scalar as Focus!) I pm'd that along with Focus, and Vengeful Slice to Castle if it was intended for Impale to be 5.2 endurance and for Vengeful Slice to do the same damage as Focus and Impale despite being AoE AND a DoT (The DoT length is approximately the same duration as Burst from Assault Rifle, and yet Burst has a 9% damage bonus or so for being a DoT). He didn't reply back to me at all.

Oh, and Hurl/Hurl Boulder, have the same damage scalar as Impale, Focus, and Vengeful Slice. But, they cost MORE endurance than the Focus/Vengeful Slice. (Talking about with Focus factored out the endurance discount it's the same cost as Vengeful Slice)

Okay, um, sorry about swinging back and forth on this issue.

For Fling Thorns, it is doing too little Lethal Damage.

Got another issue to the list.


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Throw Spines
Range 30
End Cost 13
Recharge 12
Arc 90 degrees
68.19 lethal damage + 5 * 6.26 toxic damage at level 50
-40% Movementspeed for 15 seconds
-16% Recharge for 10 seconds

Fling Thorns
Range 30
End COst 13
Recharge 12
Arc 90 degrees
32.53 lethal damage + 5 * 3.61 toxic damage at level 50
-15% Defense for 8 seconds.


Scrapper modifier at 50 = -62.56
Dominator modifier at 50 = -36.15

Throw Spines is a 1.09 Lethal Scalar with five ticks of 0.1 Toxic Scalar.
Fling Thorns is 0.90 Lethal Scalar with five ticks of 0.1 Toxic Scalar.


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I posted this in one of Ultimus' threads.


The important part is that Throw Spines is Scalar 1.09 for 13 Endurance and 12 Recharge, while Fling Thorns is Scalar 0.90 for 13 Endurance and 12 Recharge. They both have the same toxic dot (which is a secondary effect).


So, I'm sorry earlier about disagreeing with that issue on the list, and then now changing my stance to agreeing with it.

So, Fling Thorns is competitive with Fire Breath, but, Fling Thorns isn't balanced correctly. Somehow, I get the feeling this is gonna be one of those "broken on purpose" (like, Psychic Shockwave).

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I guess this list is never going to finish!

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Probably not, but we're all here to support ya! (I hope)

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I think that all of the immobs should be brought up to where roots are since it doesn't benefit a dominator as much. Also, carrion should be showed in the pet window (which should automatically pop up when you summon your pet...) because sometimes I might want to stealth a group only to find that carrion pop up and aggro... Also, can you dismiss carrion? I've never tried. Its hard to click on them.

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Excellent point for a mechanical reason it should exist in the pet window.

Hehe, I guess I'm a bit of an exception to the rule. I'm actually building my Plant/Psy Dom to have Perma-Creepers, I absolutely love having those guys around that I summon it every time that it's active.

It would be one of those QoL changes to have a buff icon is all I'm thinking.

Lili, I'm not sure if you've had any experience with Carrion Creepers yet, I've finally gotten my Plant Dom to it, and I love 'em.


Anyway, I'd like to add to the list that Carrion Creepers lacks any notification of when the "master" pet (The invisible one) has worn off. There is no "buff icon" for Carrion Creepers on the players de/buff Bar, and neither the invisible pet nor the vines appear in the pet window.

Solution: Add Carrion Creepers icon to de/buff bar, or, add Carrion Creepers (But not the vines) to the pet window.



For now, my solution has been to fire Hasten right after I fire Carrion Creepers. When Hasten wears off I know that the "master" pet has faded. But, I can't use Hasten every time that I can use Carrion Creepers.

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Now if the complaint is that the endurance cost is way too high for what you get out of it (now here's where comparing to trollers would be appropriate as immob leads to containment, which we don't get so why does it cost so much?), then I'd be all for that.

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Hmm, this has never been mentioned explicitly, but definitely has some merit as an issue. Roots has it good in this case, 13 instead of 15.6, and double damage.

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Ya know, I never noticed that Roots only costs 13 endurance.

I knew Roots was doing double the damage that other AoE Immobilizes do. So, definitely this issue should stay but perhaps word that the other AoE Immobilizes for Dominators only (Not controllers) should be changed to 13 Endurance and double their current damage like Roots?

Also wanted to add that I think Fling Thorns is doing the proper amount of damage, if anything, it's the best cone attack Doms get. I wanted to check the numbers first before I actually posted.

Psy Scream
Cast 2.67
Damage 37.6 Psy
Recharge 12
End Cost 11.9
Range 60ft
Arc 30 Degrees

Fire Breath
Cast 2.67
Damage 64 Fire
Recharge 16
End Cost 15.2
Range 40ft
Arc 30 Degrees

Frost Breath
Cast 2.67
Damage 50.6 Cold
Recharge 16
End Cost 15.2
Range 40ft
Arc 30 Degrees

Fling Thorns
Cast 1.63
Damage 32.5 Lethal + 80% chance for 3.61*5 Toxic (Average 9.7 Toxic)
Recharge 12
End Cost 13
Range 30ft
Arc 90 Degrees


Fire Breath does more damage than Frost Breath due to Fire's "secondary" effect; both Fire and Frost Breath are 16s recharge compared to Psy Scream and Fling Thorns being 12s. So, it comes down to really comparing Fling Thorns to Psy Scream. On average, Fling Thorns is going to do 32.5 Lethal + 9.7 Toxic for a total of 42.2 damage compared to Psy Screams 37.6 Psy damage.

Personally, I'd say this is a non-issue. Fling Thorns is competitive DPS-wise to Fire Breath, with Frost Breath and Psy Scream being competitive with each other DPS-wise. That is to say that Fling Thorns and Fire Breath are the two highest DPS cones for Doms, and it's no wonder considering they both get damage as part of their secondary effect while Psy and Frost do not.

EDIT:
While I do see that Skewer's Lethal damage is the same as Mind Probe's Psi damage, and then Skewer gets Toxic Damage on top of that. Seeing that Fling Thorns is still competitive damage-wise to Fire Breath, I think it's within adequate range.

As far as the endurance cost difference. Psy Scream is a deep but narrow cone, while Fling Thorns is a shallow but wide cone. In my experience I find wide cones to be far more useful than narrow cones, since all cones can have their deepness increased. Editing in the depth and angle now.

Only thing I noticed as a problem is Mesmerize in i11 accepts Recharge Reduction enhancers, so that can be removed from the list.

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I'm not sure if this counts as an issue or not, but the set that thematically connects to Plant control has at least two major powers (Ripper and Thorn Barrage) that generate knockback.

Should Strangler give a stronger -kb effect than other STHs?

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Strangler has no -kb effect to it.

Entangle and Roots are the two that have -kb effect on them and it's granted at levels equal to Acrobatics. In addition, both Carrion Creepers and Fly Trap use Roots. So, there's four powers that do -kb effect for the Plant set.

The looks good to me.

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Have no idea if this is already in the list, but Propel shows different objects to different players. All of those brilliant jokes, wasted!

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The dev's have commented on this before. The server doesn't send the data for what object is used, nor how the objects move. (So, you could push a car to one side, and someone would see a trash can on the other side).

Reasoning being that it would bog down the servers to have all of that controlled server side when not everyone has the Particle Physics running.

Bump so Iakona's numbers aren't eaten! Hehe.

(Are these posted on Paragonwiki yet?)

Yah, I agree as well. Incinerate could really use that better DPE it should have.

I would have preferred Fire Sword and Greater Fire Sword in the Dominator set to be honest.


And, actually, yes I do think Incinerate needs to be changed.. I rarely use it on my /Fire Dominator, and now I know why. Incinerate does not feel right for being Incinerate.. If it was Cremate instead, I wouldn't have an objection.

I highly doubt that the devs are going to change Tanker and Brute Incinerate to cost the right amount. And as such it should be the Dominator version that gets changed.

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...You can have multiple purple sets, just not more than one of the same set...

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holy ble3p! this is insanity.

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Yes, it's THAT type of unique...


Only one of each enhancer in a set can be slotted. Not that you can only have a single purple set.


So, yes, it IS possible for +70% Recharge down to Cap Au Diable and Bloody Bay.


EDIT:
Doh, I forgot about the rule of fives though...

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As much as Psi did when the Devs finally fixed the End discrepancy with Psi Dart, yeah.

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Should they also fix ice sword to match the tanker set, to be consistent?

<Shrug>

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Dominator Ice Sword costs more Endurance than Tanker Ice Sword because Dominator Ice Sword does more damage and has a longer recharge. If you then look at Blaster Ice Sword, it has a longer recharge and more damage along with higher endurance cost compared to Dominator Ice Sword.


Dominator Incinerate costs more Endurance than Brute/Tanker Incinerate, has a SHORTER Recharge, and has LOWER Damage.



That's where the problem lies in.


Perhaps I should have broken it down into Damage Scale to better show my point..

Incinerate for Tankers and Brutes does not follow the rule of DS*5.2 = End Cost. When Dominator Incinerate IS following DS*5.2 = End Cost. While all versions of Ice Sword are properly following DS*5.2 = End Cost.


It always been my thinking that the reason Incinerate has such a low end cost was because of that 4.6 duration DoT. If the dev's are going to be unwilling to give us that Endurance Discount, then give us Cremate instead. On average, Cremate will do the same damage as Incinerate, sometimes less sometimes more depending on the luck of the roll but at least Fire wouldn't be ham-stringed by a long DoT that is not costing the "right" amount compared to other versions.


The thing that really boggles my mind about this.. Is how the heck did they justify Psychic Shockwave breaking the AoE rules so thoroughly, when they didn't even allow Fire to have a proper Incinerate?

I knew there was something wrong with Incinerate for Fiery Assault for a long time, but I just couldn't place my finger on what it is... I finally figured it out though.


Brute Incinerate:
104.3 Fire Damage
10s Rech
6.86 End Cost

Dominator Incinerate:
75.1 Fire Damage
8s Rech
8.53 End Cost

Brute Cremate
26.7 Smash + 41.7 Fire (68.4 total) + 0-4 ticks of 4.17 Fire
8s Rech
8.53 End Cost



As can be seen here, the Dominator Version of Incinerate is costing more endurance than it should be. I love Incinerate on my Brute, mainly because of its disgustingly effective DPE. However, the Dominator Version of Incinerate doesn't have that Endurance Discount.

Now, it is my understanding that the current AT modifiers, both Brutes and Dominators have the same unenhanced damage for equal DS attacks. As such, either Dominators need to have their Incinerate replaced with the exact version as the Brutes Incinerate, or it should have Incinerate replaced with Cremate.


I understand that sets need to be balanced within themselves, however, when a power is duplicated across an AT, if it has something 'special' about it it should keep that specialness. I'd rate this discrepancy as equal to the discrepancy in Total Focus being only a mag 3 Stun for Dominators.

Holy crap..

I11 finally sunk into my skull today...


With the advent of Purple Sets, it is now possible for Perma-Dom in Bloody Bay... Any primary can achieve it. For Secondary, Fire, Ice, and Thorns are able to achieve it much easier.


Basically.. depending on primary ya need your ST Hold, either of the Immobilizes, and the AoE Soft Control with Purples (Replace Immobilize with Sleep for Mind Control). That gives ya +30% there.

From the secondary, one of the ST Ranges, the ST Melee, the Ranged Cone, and the PBAoE all slotted with Purples. That gives ya +40% for a total of +70%.

Voila, perma-dom in Bloody Bay. (Depending on how the build is done, Perma-Dom can be accessible in the Cap Au Diable SF as well!)

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Nice FAQ but since you link is no longer valid any chance of explaining what TempDamage means?

The table is far from self explanatory.

My understanding is that Level is the character's level (rather than the enhancements), I have no idea why there are 2 other numbers instead of just one though.

That explanation should be added then the whole thing moved to the Guides section.

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The link was more of me saying thats where I got it from, then go there to see an explanation for it. Like a Works Cited page of sorts.


As far as what TempDamage means:
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Does the damage of the procs vary with Archetype?

No, the damage does not. The damage is based on the "TempDamage" table which is independent of the Archetype.
This means that viewing the Proc as a damage buff it will be a greater bonus (by percentage) in a lower damage attack or for a lower damage archetype.

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To go along with that, most temporary powers including the veteran powers, use the TempDamage modifier instead of the Ranged or Melee Modifiers that AT's have. This is why Sands of Mu is 'more effective' (relatively speaking) for a Controller than it is for a Dark Melee Scrapper (Or Brute).

So, why did I not go into all of that? I felt it was a bit unnecessary for a mini-FAQ. You can find out more about how the whole scalar stuff works in Iakona's Power Data Standardization/Brawl Index Replacement

EDIT: Sorry, missed the second part of your question. There are two values in it because Procs do 0.67 scalar damage. So you take 0.67 multiply it into the TempDamage value and you get the "real" ProcDamage. Which was mentioned here:
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How much damage do the procs do?

Well, thanks to _Brev_ from this post. we have the following table! All of the procs do Damage Scale 0.67 of TempDamage Modifier.

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Damn I am a mess in replying tonight!


Now, as far as having this mini-FAQ moved to the guides section, I'd prefer it to remain stickied here. I find people come to the inventions forum to, ya know, ask about procs. Hence it being stickied here in plain view

I'm not really surprised by those results at all, it doesn't make the procs any less useful to me though.

Scrappers are the highest damage AT in the game, and due to procs ignoring AT modifiers (They use the temp scalar) they are far more useful to AT's with lower modifiers (i.e. all villains which is all I play so).

Not to mention, I rarely (Actually, never) slot procs into toggles due to the 10s timer. Click powers, for the most part, will get far more "chances" for the proc to fire off compared to toggles due to a combination of Set IO's, Hasten, and Rech Red bonuses.


Seeing as Desmodos is a Dark Melee scrapper, s/he should slot up Shadow Punch, Smite, and whatever other single target attack s/he uses for an attack chain (Boxing, or Air Sup commonly) with a Touch of Death proc and see just how much damage s/he gets from those. It is likely to be significantly higher than what Desmodos got from slotting the toggles with procs (There is a Brute "Buzzsaw" build that uses Dark Melee just like this, has both Touch of Death and Mako's Bite procs in SP, Smite, and Boxing along with a bunch of Rech Red bonuses resulting in a fairly high DPS set for Brutes, along with the highest rate of procs, both successes and failures).

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yikes. now i'm not so sure. the difference between 10% and 15% would be hard to tell. i was gonna try to jump on test w/herostats, but devs got the whole town on lockdown. maybe when beta opens up.

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Well, if you slot up your Cloak of Fear with Accuracy enhancers so that the fears land, then it'll be the same as a normal power anyways then. It just takes more Acc than normal.

I don't have a char that could test out how it works in Cloak of Fear. It could be it works like that I'm not really certain.

For click powers, the attack definitely has to land for the proc to have a chance to fire off.


Oh, and thanks Glad you liked it.

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Can you slot more than one of the same proc in a different attack? i.e., could an ice blaster put the energy damage proc from Positron's Blast in Frost, and Ice Storm, and Blizzard?

I am confused, because somewhere I saw a limit that you could only use 1 proc of a given effect in your build?

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There is one proc, iirc, that is flagged "Unique". Any proc that is NOT flagged as "unique" can be slotted in as many different powers as you have and would like to.

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Dominator Power Boost is more powerful than the blaster version. It's +110% for blasters, +155% for doms, or something close to that. Either that's an oversite or the devs figured they'd scale the power level up and slow the recharge down a bit.


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Thats not issue. Thats the Archetype Modifiers kicking in.

Doms get +149% from Power Boost, and Controllers get +186% from Power Boost. Oh, and its 119% for Blasters

Just like Blaster Ice Bolt does more damage than Dominator Ice Bolt.

Then again, that could be grounds for Doms Power Boost at least becoming 90 seconds to be in-between Controller and Blaster PB's

EDIT:
Thing is though.. I would gladly take +119% at 60 sec recharge over 149% at 120 sec recharge.