Myrmydon

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heh, better watch the tone of that post, there, Tom. Repeat after me:

"The game is properly challenging on Heroic. We don't need to be nerfed to make Heroic a challenge."

Sorry Devs, just had to do that

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So has the new Dull Pain and similar powers 'fixed' Tankers somewhat? Is more hp better than Resist most forms of damage?

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On heroic, Tanks seem to be well-balanced versus the other sets in teams--in other words, a team with a tank in it does no better or worse than a team with other ATs.

However, we're still lacking a clearly-defined role in the game that is unique to our AT.

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Aye, though i'd point out that rolling continuous damage was more important than anything else. At no point was defense really even tested.

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Exactly. Since, on a competent team on Heroic, defense is not important, whether a tank is on the team instead of another AT makes no difference.

However, this also means that other DEFENSIVE AT/Powersets aren't important either. Shield Defenders also fall into the "no difference" category, while Kinetics should be more important.

Once again, on Heroic, Damage is king. This is probably why CoV seems a lot easier to experienced CoH players and harder to folks coming in from "Triad" type games like EQ.

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I just hope we never move to this "Triad" thing that everyone talks about.

Hmm, clicked it twice.

Myrmydon - Tanker

Tylanna - Blaster
Radial Splendor - Defender
Vahlkyr - Scrapper

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This is also interesting:
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Do you guys really listen to our suggestions for powersets, costume options, map, etc....? If so can we have a example?

Oddly, ED came as a suggestion for diminishing returns on the forums. Archery and Sonics were both mentioned.

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I would like to know the name of the person who suggested this...

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I believe it was Havoc that brought up the idea first.



Everyone might as well not even bother anymore at this point. They want us playing on the heroic standard and that is possible with every combintaion of character that I have seen to date. We ran some missions on test last Saturday to see if a Tanker would be missed in teams and we came to the conclusion that the ATs are fairly well-balanced for the Heroic range and that team composition mattered much less than the mission length and skill of the players in a team. I don't mind being weakened down to this level anymore, I just wish that my passives didn't seem to be such poor choices for my Tanker to take.

@Myrmydon

Double posts just ruin it, don't they.

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Unnecessary insults directed at people who've at the very least displayed a willingness to help FTW!

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Insults can be quite necessary, Obi-Not the one...

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Over the 4 day weekend, I left my computer running with Eviscerate on Autoattack. (Both my target and my character were set to not take damage so there was no worry about killing each other.)

I attacked a total of 38917 times.
I hit 29275 times.
I missed 9642 times.

That is a 75.22% overall to hit chance against an even level critter with no defense powers.

There is no "Accuracy Wrap Around" -- otherwise Blasters with Targetting Drone + Aim + Build Up would never, ever hit, which is not the case.

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Blasters with targetting drone cannot have build up.

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He's a game designer. We can't possibly expect him to know how the game works or, at the very least, check to make sure that what he says can actually happen...

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Personally, I love whatever Dev was responsible for THIS in CoV.

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Being from New Orleans, you could change Shoplifters to Looters and I would love it even more.

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I have a level 22 ice/ss tank and playing it is both frustrating and fun. On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I often end up running away from fights leaving my team mates to fend for themselves. I hope they throw ice tanks a bone in the next release....

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If you have to run away, you need better teammates, and as my ex-paratrooper tanker-playing son says, "a brain and a plan".

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Agreed.

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And Myr, pm that poem to Statesman.
Prof

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I would, Prof, but he wouldn't get it.

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It's the easy way out to whine about how things are and say "what's the use?" It's a far better thing to try and support your claim and impart that information to the proper people even if it's ultimately futile. A good, fair fight is a glorious thing to behold and to partake in.

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To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go.

To right the unrightable wrong
To be better far than you are
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star.

This is my quest, to follow that star,
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far
To be willing to give when there's no more to give
To be willing to die so that honor and justice may live

And I know if I'll only be true to this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm when I'm laid to my rest

And the world will be better for this
That one person scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with thier last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star.


Amen, Tom. Let's do this.

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I'll be looking at the point costs.

(It's just like wargames -- constantly twiddling with Army Point values!)

zeb

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It's Pokemon meets Table Football, Zeb. You don't have to gloss it over with a cool name. It's ok, really.

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That wasn't constructive.

Statesman, I'm gonna apologize for this knucklehead in advance. Also, if you've looked over the test we are setting up, your invited to join us on those dates. Get with Da5id, Tom, or Circeus on it.

*The views of the poster do not reflect the views of the entire community, especially the pompous [censored] part.*

Prof

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Actually, joining us would be good for States. Then maybe he can actually see a Tanker in action and learn something.


Oh and Proft, wipe your nose and chin. That brownish color looks terrible on you, not to mention the....oder...

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I really like Foo's AV concept.

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I got the entire Praetorian arc to do with my tanker yet. If you want we can line 'em up one right after the other.

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Both my Rad Defender and Scrapper are available for this and are in the AV range.

Add in all of the non-Invuls in my signature as well. Although, if they never change Invul, we will need to test with it as well, maybe later.

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I beat Ultraamann so bad I made him cry!

What was that?


Did you say something Ultraa?


What?



Nothin' eh.



That's what I thought!




for anyone who is new: Ultraamann was banned and can not respond back to me saying I beat his [censored]. This is my poor attempt at homour. I actually love Ultraa and he'd probly wipe the floor with me

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*sighs*

Canadians...

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Adam7 (lvl 50 blaster) has soloed in warburg the following people:
Bert the viking
antaean
myr
ace
xpp
you
his dog
mage & arc (same time)
the entire sg The Elements (that one was tough... i needed to pop some blues and greens)
most of the legendaries (until ingot MoG'd... who says its not useful)


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Yes, kidding is good. You probably wouldn't like where I would put that crack pipe of yours if I catch you with it...

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Support doesn't occur in a continuous scale or gradient. It occurs in discrete steps. The difference between scrapper and tanker survival is smaller than the difference between one of these steps.


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Sorry if I am not stating it clearly enough for you, Aqshy. Da5id's example is really the best way to look at it. I know that a Tanker can take more damage than a Scrapper, however, the difference in how much doesn't matter when you add in support.

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I didn't want to go there.

The thing is, that seems to be what States' expects to be the role of the. If you are doing more, then the AT may need to be taken down some more.

How much is enough, and what should you expect. Apparently the contribution that Statesman's Tank made was sufficient to meet expectations.

If that is the case, then the question becomes, is it worth playing a character that contributes that much (little)?

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He "tanked" 1/3 of a spawn for 7. He took up a little more than twice his share. On a team with any sort of non-melee AT i'd expect any scrapper to at LEAST do this much. I think it's pretty clear that states' grand vision for tanks is nothing more than scrankers who draw a little more aggro than the vastly more offensively effective scrappers.

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Exactly how does a Scrapper with less defense than a tank do do at LEAST as much defensively? That makes no sense. Since other than Regen and Dark they are using the same numbers but lower than Tanks no Scrapper is going to be able to deal with damage better.

Statements like this are why nothing comes of these threads. There is no basis for them. They are little better than the obvious flames.

The Devs respond to facts not opinions.

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Look at his team composition with an emp and a kin supporting him, my scrapper does it all the time. With just an emp my controller can handle all the aggro he gets from his holds. With just an emp my regen scrapper becomes ultra regen/SR tanker/capped damage with unlimited endurance and healing there's very little that can stop me I have tanked avs and herded with my scrapper with just an emp buffing and healing me.

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My BS/Invul does the same thing with that kind team support. She becomes a wrecking machine of destruction that not even AVs can wishstand, even in duo situations post-ED. Dealing high damage is one of the best types of overall defense in the game. (as Casshan so eloquently put it ) If they are dead, they don't deal damage to you (or your team) anymore. The main problem with this situation is that, if Tankers need the same support that a Scrapper does to deal with aggro, then WHY BOTHER WITH THE TANKER WHEN YOU CAN BRING ANOTHER ARCHTYPE INSTEAD? (highlighted for those that just don't seem to get it.)

The question here is a Tanker's role in a post ED environment. Do we have a distinct function or can we just be replaced by another AT and forgotten? If Statesman's "example" is the future of Tanking, then I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but we are sadly moving toward the latter.

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A reply to Tom:

May I request also that if/when you run your tests, you get some of the not-so-great tanks as well.

The all-star line up going to test this might set the bar a bit too high for lower lights, like myself

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Be my guest, Casshan. I plan to run my non-tanks in this testing set-up.

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I also figure that with the influence disappearing from the game at a frightening rate, the days of slotting SOs at 27 are going to be a memory pretty soon, too.

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Not at all. Rushing to get Prestige is futile in the current system anyway, so no need. We will get it a base when we get it. My level 50 sugar mamas will take care of any future young uns for me.

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This is very well put, Scorus, and I think that it's a good start. I apologize for letting my biases get in the way of a good discussion earlier. While I am glad that Statesman posted, it did distract us for a bit from the original aim of this topic.

One thing that would be useful is some kind of numbers, especially since the DEVs love numbers.

Since we and they know that Invincibility is bugged, it would proabably be a bad idea to run a series of tests right now with an INV tank. (Lest we fall into the same situation as Statesman has of being criticized for using a bugged powerset.)

As I've said earlier, it would be a good idea to assemble a large test team willing to spend a weekend doing this with Herostats running:

Pick a good, solid difficult mission containing a wide variety of damage types and assemble a team of six or seven players spread across the ATs to add our tank to. Farm the mission. Run the mission first with the non-bugged tank types (and if someone wishes, an INV with Invincibility totally unslotted for DEF, which we won't be able to use for numbers, but would give a bit of a "feel" for the reduced power.)

For best results, the tank should be 32 or higher, neither sk'd nor exemplared and the team should be of exactly the same composition each time. The mission should be run once as a control, since on the subsequent runs, people will know where the mobs are and that will speed up the fights.

Keep track of xp/min, defeats and other notes that would be relevant to the question at hand.

Once the test has been done on the tanks and the data recovered, the tank slot would then be replaced with one of each of the other 6 ATs of the same level played by someone as familiar with the AT as the tanks in question are of their own.

Once all six of those have been run, the numbers can be compared to that of the tanks and conclusions drawn.

Now, this is a lot of work, and in a perfect world, the DEVs would be doing this and not a bunch of volunteers. However, I think that this would be our best shot at having the AT looked at, short of waiting six months for the datamining to accomplish the same thing.

Added note--It probably would be best to actually /demorecord each of the tests. That way we could actually *send* them the tests after we've analyzed them.

[And before someone presents the argument that they get paid to do this, and we don't, let me remind you that on various occasions (scrappers beating +8s), their testing has been shown to be flawed. If there is a problem, the only hope we have to bring attention to it and a reaction to it is to provide evidence to back up our assertions.]


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Good idea, Tom. I would be more than happy to join you on the test server to set this up. I have 6 characters that are in or above the level range you describe, all ED Compliant. I say make the actual test date a weekend day so that most of us can make it. Set it up and I will be glad to work with you on this.

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The primary problem is unlike Defenders or Blasters or anybody else, Tankers can't pick they're foes based on the type of damage they can defend. My Radiation Defenders and Controllers can take on all types of mobs, as can my Dark Defender. Blasters can kill all types of Mobs

Controllers can controll all types from Hellions to DE

however...

Invulnerable tanks have to pick who they Tank against
(as shown in Statesman's post)
Fire and Stone less so
and Ice Tankers are still being one shot

Every role is better served at this point by a scrapper. If I sit my Illusion/Rad behind a Scrapper we clear mish faster than if I support a Tanker. Simple Math

I sat playing heal-bot behind an Ice Tanker for a couple of days, but the numbers match my anecdote

That is, if each Tanker needs a Defender or Controller to TANK, then Scrappers are ALWAYS going to be better Tankers, unless you are going against such high level mobs that you shouldn't be doing! (According to Almighty Statesman)


this is the Shame of I5/I6


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DarK_Tempest, Statesman's example is a terrible one for Tankers to use as a reference, hence the red warning I posted at the beginning of my first post. Please, don't use that because that is not a good example for new players.

You are, unfortunately, right about the fact that Scrappers can replace Tankers in a team and be more of a benefit. I wish you were wrong about this, but my experiances (like yours ) say otherwise.