Muon_Neutrino

You need to work on your phrasing then, because I have a hard time seeing how else I was supposed to interpret that set of remarks, placed right under my quote, directly referencing things I said, and without any disclaimers about general audiences.

Yeah, I just didn't think it was too important given the assumption of soft capped characters. 1 interrupt slotted aid self is pretty reliable if you're softcapped, leaving the long animation and end cost as the main downsides.

I think I need to explain the way I build characters. I am trying to get both mechanical performance *and* conceptual appropriateness. When I make a build, I look at the powers available and make two mental lists: one which contains all the powers I think I should have for best performance, and one which contains all of the powers I want for fun or for concept. I then identify overlaps between those, and try to figure out how I can best fit them both in.

Therefore, I'm not going to drop a passive for confront, because that's just exchanging a power in one list for a power in the other. And I'm sorry, but unenhanceable, duration/use limited temp powers are no substitute for *real* powers. The attraction of /nin is that, with that build, I *can* fit in all of the powers I want from both lists. WIth the SR version, I can't. I'm just as loathe to sacrifice performance for concept as I am to sacrifice concept for performance.

And don't forget - the scrapper version of ninjitsu won't have caltrops, and I'm operating under the assumption that it will be replaced by some other gadget/trick style power I'll be wanting. So the SR version is down 3 thematic powers compared to the /nin version, even before you account for 'for fun' powers like confront.

You've just explained why min/maxing is necessary for top performance. You haven't explained why you need to be an elitist to min/max. And the commonly accepted definition of 'elitist' is rather derogatory, so I'd suggest you think carefully about your wording here.

As far as I can tell, in 'playing the opponent', you're essentially mimicking the bad arguments often advanced against stalker proliferations. I get that. What I don't get is why you think it's relevant. If you know they're bad arguments, why do you keep bringing them up? And I *agree* with you on the stalker issues, so I don't see why you feel compelled to belabor the point, especially since it has damn-all to do with the topic.

And as to the proliferation being 'unneeded', let's turn this around a bit. At this point, the default dev view seems to be that *everything* is going to be proliferated eventually, unless there's a reason not to - note that when something might actually be problematic enough to cause issues, they've been careful to say so - such as empathy, or sunstorm's notes on dark sets for blasters/controllers/doms.

So, since proliferation is the default, enough asking for reasons *to* proliferate /nin. Give me a good reason *not* to, one that has nothing to do with stalker balance issues. Also note that the devs don't seem to care about 'uniqueness' either, given that their earlier proliferation has already involved the last formerly 'unique' sets (ignoring set types that can't be proliferated because that AT is the only one who uses them) from defenders, scrappers, brutes, doms, and corrs.

And I know this post wasn't directed at me, but I want to comment on it:

It is true that the SR + weapons build is somewhat similar to a /nin build. That doesn't, however, mean is is *equivalent* to that /nin build, and I have yet to see a good reason why I *shouldn't* be able to use the set that actually *does* fit what I want. I don't *want* to have to put up with the rough edges, and I don't *want* to have to sacrifice several thematic and/or fun powers such as the 3 /nin gadgets and confront, and you haven't given any good reasons why I should be forced to. It isn't a question of 'why'. It's a question of 'why not'.

OK, I'll bite. If you *weren't* intending to accuse me of showing unfair bias towards scrappers, exactly what *were* you intending to say? (And to take care of the other common definition for 'favoritism', no, scrappers aren't my favorite AT. That'd be doms.)

Take a look at what you wrote:

Emphasis mine. That paragraph was placed directly below a quote of me, and the bold elements directly reference what I was saying. You were talking to me. If you don't want people to take things as personal attacks, then don't make personal attacks.

The reason to be hungry for ninjitsu is that it fits what I want to do with the character better than SR+weapons does. I can vaguely simulate it, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer having the real thing. And yes, I enjoy another AT more, and despite your choice of words, there's nothing wrong with that.

The SR version of the build already had aid self, which is, numerically, actually somewhat superior to sha (it of course pays for that with a long animation and a higher end cost, but it's at least as good overall), so I wouldn't be gaining a heal by switching. In fact, I don't actually expect the /nin version of the character to actually be significantly stronger than the SR version - even once they're both softcapped, the /nin version gets extra tricks and is a slightly looser build, but the SR version gets quickness, native KB resist, the scaling resistances, and immunity to debuffs. Mechanically, there's very little reason to favor one build over the other. I don't want /nin for min/max performance reasons. I want it for all of the little fun bits like smoke flash and room to take confront.

And I find it amusing that somehow people who try to min/max are now automatically elitists. Rather a broad brush there, I think.

And for the last time, what the heck does this have to do with scrappers? Again, how does other people's close-mindedness somehow excuse you for doing the same thing? I'm sorry you can't think of a conceptual reason why someone might want a /nin scrapper, but I fail to see why that should hold me back.

There's a difference between favoritism and simply wanting to play an AT I enjoy playing. Favoritism would be gloating over the fact that scrappers get shield and stalkers don't. Favoritism would be advocating that stalkers shouldn't get ice/ice just because scrappers don't have them yet. Favoritism would be laughing at stalkers if they got another subpar set in proliferation. Sound familiar?

I just want a /nin scrapper because I think I would enjoy playing one more than I would a /nin stalker or a /SR/weapons scrapper. That's not favoritism, that's simply going where I think I would have the most fun.

The difference? Favoritism seeks to put other players and ATs down. I'm not doing that. If you think stalkers need balance fixes? Fine by me. Want better sets proliferated to them? Awesome, I'm all for it. Accusing me of some sort of bias simply because I enjoy playing one AT more than another is stupid.

And in regards to scrappers getting /nin and everyone else getting nothing, don't be silly. If they do more proliferation, they'll do it for everyone, just like they did in the past. The point of my example was to say that scrappers getting ninjitsu wouldn't somehow take something away from stalkers, not to suggest that scrappers should get nin and nobody else should get anything. Why the heck would I suggest that, when just a few posts back I advocated proliferating everything to everyone?

Again, don't be silly. I'm not assuming you play nothing but stalkers. I'm talking about the apparent need you feel to 'defend' stalkers by putting down scrappers. It's that ridiculous philosophy I'm objecting to here. AT equality is fine with me (though not for you, I'd have to guess).

Couldn't care less about pats on the back, but as for the other part, if you can't come up with a *good* reason why not, then yeah. Spite don't count.

And stalkers having a bad rap has exactly *what* to do with scrappers getting ninjitsu? The thing that doesn't make a damn bit of sense about all of this is that scrappers getting ninjitsu does absolutely *nothing* to harm stalkers or their players. It's not like only one of the ATs can have the set at a time! If we all woke up tomorrow and found that scrappers had gained /nin overnight, stalkers would still be *exactly* the same as they are today. Again, archetypes are not a competition.

I don't expect to get ninjitsu next either, as energy aura *is* the fairly obvious low hanging fruit. But that doesn't make me want it any less. And the fact that (thank god) you aren't in charge of proliferation choices doesn't make it any less stupid to **** on the fun of other players out of some misguided sense of AT loyalty.

So, the solution to other people's poor behavior is to mimic them? That's a really productive attitude. I have never thought that 'because everyone else is' to be a good reason for doing *anything*, ever. In this case, it's downright laughable.

I'm glad you're not in charge then, I'd hate to see the sort of game that'd result from that mindset.

Thanks.

I'm agreeing with you and that's the response I get?

What the hell is it about this issue that everyone only seems to be opposed to the proliferation out of spite? Sheesh.

Memo to the general population: this is (nominally) a cooperative game. Being opposed to improvements for other ATs does nothing to advance your own pet cause.

If the word comes down that scrappers will never get ninjitsu (like stalkers and shield), that's probably what I'd do. In fact, I've got about 12 different versions of that powerset combo that I built up in mids before I decided I'd rather have ninjitsu. However, when ninjitsu fits the concept so much better than SR-with-weapon-mastery, I'd rather have the appropriate set. Given that I'm assuming caltrops would be replaced by another gadget type power, going SR instead of ninjitsu cuts out 3 of the 6 gadgets I want, and all in all I'm much more satisfied with the builds I've come up with that use ninjitsu.

What I don't understand is why everyone is so quick to dismiss ninjitsu on scrappers as 'not thematic'. The combo of evasiveness and tricks seems a broad enough one to encompass many concepts, not all of whom are assassins. I think people are getting too hung up on the whole 'ninja = assassin' motif.

And I'd certainly support stalkers getting more proliferations and any balance tweaks they need. The fact that I don't care for the playstyle doesn't mean I wish the AT or its players ill. I am personally for proliferating every single powerset to every applicable AT.

I think stalkers should have gotten shields (I can hide if I'm a glowing ball of energy, but not if I carry a shield?). I would be fine with stalkers getting fire armor/melee. I would be fine with them getting ice armor/melee. I would even be fine with them getting stone (in fact, I think it'd be *hilarious*). I would proliferate ice sets to brutes. I would proliferate illusion to doms. I would proliferate kin and rad to MMs. I would even proliferate pain and emp to the opposite sides (the thematic argument is a joke now that GR is here). I would proliferate absolutely everything, because I believe that it's up to the *players* to decide if a powerset and AT combo thematically matches the character they have in mind. If sets have to be adjusted for balance, so be it, but proliferate the darn things already.

Yes, dark armor and stone melee can stun all the minions. And chilling embrace slows enemy attacks to 75% of their usual rate. If you think minions don't make up at least 25% of the attacks you usually take, I'd love to see the missions you play.

And? None of the primaries have confuses either, or -res, or -special, or... Just because an effect is missing doesn't mean it can't be added. If you want to try to prove ice/ and /ice shouldn't be proliferated, you need to prove that on their own merits, not by appealing to precedent.

And if any of us were talking about building a brute that doesn't rely on *any* incoming attacks for fury, you might have a point. However, since we're talking about an ice armor set that still requires you to take alphas and still subjects you to 75% of the usual attacks afterward, this is meaningless.

In case you missed it, that's a *percentage* drain. In other words, a slotted power sink will sap ~80% of an enemy's endurance, regardless of the size of their endurance bar - and all PvE end drain that I'm aware of works the same way.

Since you don't seem to know how sapping works, and you seem to be under the impression that chilling embrace = no incoming attacks, I don't think we're the ones that need to do research. Before you parrot the 'zomg slows will kill fury' standard line, it'd probably pay to look into what you're arguing.

Mine is slightly different...

My honest opinion? No, he'd be *worse* as a dom. On a controller, you have a buff/debuff secondary that can partially cover for the primary's anemic control, and controllers might actually be able to put the attacks in the primary to use. A dom, on the other hand, has much less backup mitigation - basically, only whatever secondary effects his attacks and ancillary might have - and so needs his primary to actually do its job. And a dom already has attacks in his secondary, so doesn't need propel (ever) or lift (barring a pairing with /elec or /earth, with their lack of a 3rd blast).

There's another topic a bit further down the page where I left some more thoughts on this combo:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=250214

The upshot is, if you do decide you want to play grav, play a grav controller with a carefully chosen synergistic secondary (kin would not be my choice). Storm and TA might be good, traps or dark would be awesome if only controllers had them...

Caltrops is certainly a very good power. However, at least when comparing ninjitsu to the set it's most often linked to, SR, I think ninjitsu comes off pretty favorably even without caltrops *and* blinding powder.

Assuming scrapper ninjitsu has a cloak of darkness clone in place of hide, the difference in defense between fully slotted nin and SR is only 2.9%. Slotted scrapper sha would be about 20.5 hp/s healing (remember scrappers have higher base HP), so at any incoming damage levels below 20.5/.029 ~ 706 damage per second, ninjitsu takes less net damage than SR does. From some old work of Arcanaville's, an average +3 minion is about 30 DPS, so 700 DPS is more than 20 +3 minion's worth.

In other words, even when surrounded by the aggro cap of +3 minions, ninjitsu with 4 powers is taking less net damage than SR with 6. If scrapper SR is considered even close to acceptable, I think ninjitsu would be ok even if caltrops was replaced by a power that offers less overall mitigation. And only having to fuss with 2 powers (smoke flash is fine), one of which would be a dead easy swap (hide -> CoD clone), isn't *too* much work for a proliferation. It's certainly a *lot* less work than creating a new set.

edit: If the scrapper stealth has hide's default 1.875% def to all instead of cloak of darkness' 3.75% to all, that halves the DPS number to ~350, which is still something like 12 +3 minions. I'll take that.

I don't want to play a sneaky assassin type who attacks from stealth - that's not the only concept ninjitsu fits. Ninjitsu can, in many ways, also be thought of as the melee equivalent of devices/traps - it has actual toggle-based self protection as required from a melee armorset, but a third of the set is made up of gadget type powers. For the concept I have in mind, combining ninjitsu and weapon mastery to have caltrops, webnade, exploding shuriken, smoke flash, blinding powder, and whatever they replace caltrops with (assuming, as I do, that it'd be some sort of gadget to keep theme) is absolutely perfect.

I *could* make a nin/weapons stalker as well, but since I don't care for the stalker mechanics and the character concept isn't that of an assassin type, I don't want to. I don't want to take AS and placate and be saddled with powers and playstyle issues I don't care about in order to get the powerset my concept requires, and I don't want to skip AS and placate and get all of the disadvantages of a stalker with none of the advantages. Also, I don't want to take the character who's supposed to be a hero and start in the rogue isles or praetoria. And I think I'll decide for myself if I like my character's concept, thank you very much.

I actually agree with you that there are probably balance issues with stalkers that ought to be addressed. But I find it rather childish that because the devs for whatever reason don't agree with you, you want to take out your anger on scrappers. That hardly seems like a constructive solution to the problem.

You are wrong. Why? Dark armor. Two mez auras that don't just *slow* attacks, they *stop* them completely. Stone melee. Two area knockdowns, one with a easily permable stun attached. A dark/stone brute is laying out a perma mag *4* AoE stun - he isn't getting attacked, *ever*, after the alpha strike. If brutes are allowed to have these, they're allowed to have ice/ice.

The sum total of ice armor's recharge slow? A whopping 32% in chilling embrace. This reduces enemy attack rates to ~75% of their normal values - and ONLY after the enemy has actually used all of his attacks once. In other words, you jump in and take the full alpha and beta strikes to spike your fury at the start of the fight, and then the enemy still gets off 75% of the attacks he normally would over the rest of the fight. Ice melee's only AoE slow (the only kind that would meaningfully affect total incoming damage from a spawn) is a truly astounding 16% in frost. And, don't forget, you're still attacking and building fury that way. Especially with the recent changes to fury generation and decay, the notion that ice powersets would meaningfully hinder fury generation is silly.

The DB editor hasn't worked properly in years...

I see this a lot, and every time, I have to wonder, *why*? What's the point in wishing *against* more options? It's not like the ability to make a /nin scrapper would suddenly somehow make /nin stalkers any worse. There is literally *no* downside to the players from making this option available, so why *not* do it? Archetype choices are *not* a competition, so there is no need to restrict things to 'win' players for an AT.

And just saying 'play a stalker' misses the point. I don't want to play the set on a stalker, because I don't want to play a stalker. (And to head off the next argument, not because of any perceived balance issues, but more because I'm not interested in the signature stalker mechanics.)

If there's an issue with stalkers, wouldn't it make more sense (and be fairer) to advocate balance changes for stalkers than to complain about scrappers?

Just FYI, elec/'s AoE immob does *not* prevent knockdown (although the single target one does). That AoE immob also drains 10% end and applies all of its damage at once instead of spread out in ticks, so it meshes better with static field and slotted for endmod it's a worthwhile part of your sapping arsenal - static field -> jolting chain -> chain fences = they're asleep, then they're knocked down, then they've had some extra end drained and immobilized, and they're usually asleep again before they get up. It, along with plant's roots, are the only AoE immobs I'd recommend picking up on a dom.

AKA: it gets better