Mr_Marvellous

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HEATs had been out for ages then...

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So if I am playing my PB I am technically on HEAT

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They definitely need to come after shoulder capes, in my opion.

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Oh, why do you think that?

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That's fairly obvious really. Shoulder capes aren't a "full" cape, they're more like a trainee cape. Thus, it would logically follow that you'd get access to them sooner than FULL capes.

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Well I was wondering if it was that or something else actually. I was actually thinking that over 21 months might be a little long to wait for them when some can get a cape on there very first character.

On the other hand, I can understand the 'not "full" capes' argument. I am still thinking, actually, it might be better as an accolade.

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I'm so impressed with myself for asking a question that has stayed (relatively) OT since the first page

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Haha, well done

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They definitely need to come after shoulder capes, in my opion.

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Oh, why do you think that?

I wasn't on much this weekend. I don't have the time that I once had unfortunately... and I needed to sleep after a rather strange Saturday evening.

Thanks to mereman, Knightly and the rest of the Flying Circus team we ended up at level 27. Looking forward to next week again as always

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Have you seen how many people walk around in a valkarie cossie? Why? Because it is new and shiny. Everybody loves getting fun stuff. Even if it is just one cossie part.

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^^ This - which is why if you were going to make them available from level 1, do it as a veteran reward. Remember when wings first came out? It was City of Seagulls! Now you rarely see them (unless on a Valkyrie)

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Actually, I wouldn't mind that at all. I think it would have to be bundled in to one of the early ones though (3 or 6 months) because the chances are you would have done a cape mission by then and if you hadn't then you are likely to be the type of player for whome having a cape at level 1 would be a major benefit.

You know what, I wouldn't even mind if capes were available on all characters after you had completed the cape mission on one character... perhaps through a special accolade?

That would be more of an achievement wouldn't it? Like getting access to the epics. You've achieved something once and so therefore you have access to this special item for your new characters.

I'm all for keeping the wonderful experiences that I had for the new players as well. I do question, however, how wonderful the cape mission is for those who start the game with the Valkari cape and what sense of achievement they would get out of it.

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Perhaps because capes are so central to super hero "lore" that getting one should be seen as an achievement. Or to put it another way, it's something to look forward to, to generate anticipation, and therefore feels like a "reward". If there is something that can generate that same kind of anticipation, and be something people will want as much, then sure, move capes to lvl 1 and replace them with something else.

I have a feeling though you'd struggle to find something that would fit the bill as well.

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Apart from the fact that many have said they are not feeling rewarded by obtaining a cape, especially when they have played through the game several times.

And where is the reward for those who are starting the game with the Valkari pack? They already have a cape available to them. Where are the new Mac users saying that they feel rewarded by having to wait to get more capes? Where is the reward in just obtaining more? Sure it's nice, but I doubt it will be much of a sense of achievement. Not like the old days.

With that in mind, wouldn't it be better to give heroes access to a special costume (including a special cape and aura) at level 20, based on Hero 1's costume perhaps?

Currently, I am not convinced that the cape is really generating enough anticipation, across the player base, to warrant it being kept as a level 20 reward (I'm not saying my suggestion would, just to be clear on that).

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But every option not in the game from level 1 limits me.

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Yes, they do, but the difference with capes, as has been stated before is that they are so endemic of the superhero genre. To argue that you can create characters not supported by the game is moot when the characters one would want to create are supported by the game.

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Today, my police officer made level 20 and the first thing she did was to get that cape. Why? Because she had earned the right to wear the cape. It means something.

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It means something to some but it certainly doesn't mean anything to everyone within the game world. And who is to say whether it means anything or not? Ultimately it's the devs and if they decide to introduce items that contradict this then we have every right to ask them to look at this again and change it for all. And we should, we should because it should be the responsibility of every player to get the devs to push the limits of this game. That way the game will grow and it is more likely to stay fresh.

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Today as well one newbie (fresh in the game) in my SG was very enthusiastic that he now could wear a cape for his hero. For him to it was proof that he had accomplished something. it also meant that he learned a piece of wonderful game lore.

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Because, to him it's new. I'm not disputing that. I wonder how he would have felt had the capes been available from level 1 and if his 'achievement' had been marked in a different way. Would it have been any less of an achievement?

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Milestones are important, don't erode them further.


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When you say 'further' I am actually not sure how they have been eroded in the past and I wouldn't mind a quick rundown if at all possible.

The thing about eroding milestones though is this; putting capes at level 1 doesn't automatically erode the milestone of reaching 20. You still get a lot of stuff. You get a second costume slot and a great power. It's also where the arcs start becoming more interesting.

Removing capes from the milestone process also doesn't mean that they can't be replaced by something else. The eroding milestone argument never seams to take that in to consideration.

Very happy cake day to you

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See, when you justify game mechanics IICly, we get into a whole load of trickyness.

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That's why I tend to dismiss conceptual counter arguments

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Isn't it fair to say though, that conceptually you can make what seem to be limiting game mechanics fit however you like, without the need to change those mechanics?

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Of course it is, but the argument for changing this has not largely been a conceptual one. To use a conceptual argument to try and counter a quality of life issue, such as this, doesn't address the problem.

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See, when you justify game mechanics IICly, we get into a whole load of trickyness.

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That's why I tend to dismiss conceptual counter arguments

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Just had a strange thing happen I wanted to use my Ouroboros Portal while in Granville,and got the message you cannot enter,I am a lvl 41 MM anyone else had this problem.

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Maybe they're re-decorating...

Sorry, that was no help at all was it

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The capes milestone makes sense. You start of like a loser who has enough power to beat up some local thugs. You are still learning the trade of being a superhero. There is a reason why the trainers are called trainers.

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Only if you buy in to that [conceptual] argument. You could just as easily say that the 'trainer' is just like a driving instructor, making sure you are ready for the next step; something you have to complete several goals to prove.

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Yup, it appears to be a leak from the magic pack, especially since the rest of the outfit and the other variants (i.e. lace, top with skin) aren't showing up.

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Magic leaks huh? Well the welsh will be happy

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That was TERRIBLE!!

*Holds Scarlet's coat*

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hehe could've been worse... I could've made a joke about pipe fitting or something... tho that might have been plubming the depths

Alright alright I'm going!

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I'm glad you didn't sink to that level. Of course, I'm sure someone else will plunge in with some later as well.

The only suit I was going to do was a tux for Mr M. I'd heard about the DB problem so I think I might have to stick to the not-so-dandy-highywayman look I have at the moment

As for tomorrow morning, I might not be up much before we start. It's an adrenalin thing.

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I'm quite aware of the reason from the pov of game mechanics; that wasn't what I asked. I realise your dismissal of thematic questions, and I daresay this would fall under that category.

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Yes, I suppose it largely does because I can justify it in terms that doesn't conflict with the game its self.

For example:

I have a hero at level 1. He has all of his powers available to him but he knows the foes he is fighting are not difficult to beat so he uses the least amount of energy to deal with them by using the weakest attacks he can. He does this just in case there is something more dangerous around the corner. Similarly, being new to Paragon he might not know the city that well and so might be more cautious and could rest more to get his bearings. He also doesn't want to fly/jump/speed/tp around too much in case he misses something about the city that he's not seen before.

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Again, not what I asked.

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Sorry, my head's all over the place today. Maybe we'll see some extra wings or things in other packs (natural perhaps... although what is natural about having wings )

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probably more than I initially gave Jay credit for

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Actually, reading your list I was thinking to myself "Oh, I remember that now.. and that one". I suppose they haven't sunk in because I've only really been reading updates.

Maybe we won't get as many 'extra' costume bits anymore, you know the little tweaks to the costumes that happened once a while. Looks like we might get something with each issue though.

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I strongly disagree. If a hero isn't a "trainee" before lvl 20, why are things like travel powers not available until lvl 14?

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Well, there always has been a game mechanic behind that though. It was to force first time players to run around, thus learning there agro distances. That's what we've been told when this has come up before at least.

The same is true for having only one attack power. It is a clear game mechanic and that is the same in many games.

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As someone said earlier, I think it's really only become a problem since the seeming double standards of introducing capes as part of bought booster packs and allowing them to be worn before the cape mission has been completed. No one complained about "stifling creativity" before then.

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I think it's always been a problem. There were several suggestion threads "back in the day"™ that I remember. I think this new situation though has just compounded the issue.

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Incidentally, and slightly OT...

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Well it does currently look like all of the expansions are having costume bits added. The Magic one seams to (as one of the bits has been leaked). I'm not sure there would be that much of a take-up of them if they didn't actually. What would the Tech pack have included apart from costume options? three character emotes and a special power would be very little for £5.99.

Was anything added in the last few patches?

Well I might do mine when I get home tonight (at about 3 in the morning) but I don't think I shall use a cape with WF. A new costume might be nice though. It's not like I don't have the tokens, lol.

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...Citadel (yeah i know i hate that TF but with our team i am sure we will cut thru mobs at a high pace).

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Same here, had a nightmare doing it. But the XP is always good and I have a funky new move now :-)

We've not done cape/costume missions. Is there anyone who needs those too? Shouldn't take too long.

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As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.

I like this milestone a lot. It makes sense to have it. I agree that it absolutely not make sense to have heroes wearing their Valkyrie cape before level 20 though.

And yes this might be stifling to some people creativity but so do the other limits both as milestone or engine wise as I described above.

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As you see it, perhaps, but not as the game its self describes it. We've had this argument before, you can't justify this on thematic grounds. It doesn't hold up on either side. That is why no conceptual argument can be valid in terms of decisions that aren't purely based on gamelore.

What do you like about the milestone? Why does it make sense to have it? I can't see why myself when heros can have access to other capes at level 1. Where is the milestone now and if that milestone has eroded then what is its function?

The 'other limits' you described above (as I countered above) do not have the same link to the superhero sub-genre as the cape. As for then engine, there is no reason in the game engine for not doing this.


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Sorry Marvelous, I wasn't saying your comment was wrong, just interesting. I'm in full agreement with you on capes being linked to heroes.

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No need to apologise. You raise some very valid and interesting points

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Jay said it was done. It's just waiting for marketing to release it.

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Actually I wonder if the valentines day patch was bundled up in that. Not long to go now.

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Very few heroes actually wear capes.

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Yes, I know that. What I am saying is that the concept of a hero wearing a cape has become engraned in to the zeitgeist. It doesn't matter that most don't. What matters is peoples own perception of there character as a hero; some of which can't be realised without the use of a cape.

The reason for that is because of the perception of a hero being someone wearing a cape. That's what I mean by "the very thing that defines what a superhero".

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Well considering the "Witch Leather" top has been found, it looks like this might of been the Magic Booster. Which for one have been looking forward too.

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Yes, cause it would make sense if the magic booster pack was made available for Halloween... oh, what, hang on...

Yes, cause it would make sense if the magic booster pack was made available for valentines day... erm...

...because...

*searches desperately for a reason*

...because.. it's.. a magic time of year.

*phew*

Actually, wasn't the wedding pack available for valentines day. They may have made that the start of the schedule for releasing stuff. I hope it is ready for release. I've not made a magic hero in ages. This would be a great excuse.

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But what if i wanted to play a roman legionaire lost between worlds? To get the roman cossie You need to have done ITF. A thing that is only possible after reaching level 35. It just cant be done.


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There is a big difference between your Roman concept or the ones for Medusa or getting a tommy gun with your character (or even customisable weapons) and the cape.

Like it or not, the cape is an icon of 'superhero lore'. It is so ingrained in to the concept that if you asked someone to make there own superhero then in all probability they would draw someone with a cape on. It is part of the zeitgeist.

Yes, the game world should have limits, extra items at certain levels, milestones and achievements. When it comes to capes, however, the reason they have been placed as a milestone (and the concept behind that) is now redundant. So, all you have with a cape mission is something that annoys more than it encourages, especially for those who have been here the longest. Yet these are items that define the very genre of 'superhero' that this game so thoroughly embraces. They should be available from level one because a cape is the very thing that defines what a superhero is, to the extent that they have been nicknamed 'capes'!

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Presumably you'd still need to pick 2 powers from the pools for the teir 4 power?

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Well, nothing has been said about teir 4 as yet so we would have to assume so I think. Although, I seam to remember that devs are very bad at setting flags in this game so there might be a bug in there somewhere.

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Castle says 2 picks before tier 4 still.

Source

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That makes sense. Makes it easier if you just want a travel power but you can't get the best powers in the set (supposedly... maybe we should call them the top powers in the set) without spending more on it.