MrMotivator

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The herd school worked, but only because they had asked him to show them how to herd properly. If i tried to put my mate in a controlled environment and teach him different tactics and techniques, he'd take great offense and probably never speak to me again.

basically, there is no way to teach people unless they want to learn.. this is a game, after all

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As you say, people are playing a game and object/don't have fun if you start telling them what to do.

I ran some tanking lessons for someone I used to play with a lot. I was doing it in Perez Park as a blaster, showing where to stand and how to cluster up a nice group of 10-15 green or blue Hellions/Skulls. Of course this was also so I could let rip my Fireballs/Fire Breath at the neatly arranged group afterwards.

Unless people specifically ask, the best way for people to learn to play tanks is for there to be a fairly large number of decent tanks out there playing. Somehow I doubt that this will be the case ever again, especially in PuGs.

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the best tanks i play with in game are the few remaining people who i've been playing with since i first started. Now this is probably in some respect due to them having played for so long that they know the game inside out... however, i would also attribute it to the fact that we learned from some of the best. I get the feeling that most of the good tanks you meet today learned from tanks in i3/4.

Now, i know a lot of tanks pick up all the fundamentals quickly, and are fast learners... but there are a lot who don't. I have a mate who is now in his mid 40s with his tank, it's his first and highest toon... and if i'm really honest, i wouldn't like to be a squishy on a team with him because i have no faith in his aggro holding. He has an ok build... one of his sg mates respec'd it for him cause he'd totally gimped it... so he can definately take a decent amount of damage, but that doesnt mean he has a clue how to use his toon to best effect.

I did, briefly, help a friend who did a bit of a 'herd school' for a couple of his lower lvl mates. He used his fire/fire tank, i jumped on my empath and we each sk'd a tank. one was 24 and the other was 38, but neither had a clue how to herd. Basically what we did was jump into dreck, and he took a mob to demonstrate, then let them loose... at first they seemed a bit confused, but after a few mobs they were starting to get the idea and were trying to spot the best places to herd to. We were trying to teach them herding, but also about aggro handling and aggro caps in a relateivly safe environment. Most importantly though, we were trying to show them that tanking can be fun!

The herd school worked, but only because they had asked him to show them how to herd properly. If i tried to put my mate in a controlled environment and teach him different tactics and techniques, he'd take great offense and probably never speak to me again.

basically, there is no way to teach people unless they want to learn.. this is a game, after all

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The tank was new to the game so and rather then jump on him for mistakes he made to start with. I sent a couple of tells asking him if he was happy about what his resposability was as the team tank. he assured me that he knew what he was doing. (Bear in mind here that i had already checked his build and he had no taunt or taunt aura, no rooted, and his only travel power was fly, which as you can imagine, concerned me a little) but always one to try new things i gave him the benefit of the doubt.

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total derail... but i love it when tanks have flurry and dont use their shields, it wouldnt be the hollows without it!

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You keep staring at the 'need' point, but look ahead. If you take it, it will 'need' less other things. Less healing, less worry of a tanker, less team whipe. Sometimes you dont pick a power because you need it, but take it because the team will benefit from it greatly.


[/ QUOTE ]you're saying that with GA you 'need' less things; yet do you see hasten, pool power taunt, or taunt enhs slotted in my tank's attacks? no.. cause i dont need them to hold aggro effectively. a tank using GA on the other hand, does need them to hold aggro effectively...

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I did take stone and nrg armor now, to get my LotG sets. Those 2 together are quite nice, but once they hit beyond my defence (hello nems, freaks, warriors, valkiry etc) you have no single defence left, thus relying way more on healer, buffer, supporters.

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i'm not too sure why freaks are in that list tbh, but nvm... how do you think ice fares against nems? Ice is even more defence reliant that stone is!

from what you're saying, it seems to me that your reason for running perma-ga is that you feel the stone armours are too weak?

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If you hate GA so much, not reading my reasoning of GA and its benefits, whats the whole use of asking then?

Back to the story 'what is tanking', GA in your eyes is a lousy useless slow thing that is not able to keep agro in any form.

The need of such resist and defence? (dont forget defence, its alot) My build i am able to keep close to the same agro, but i dont need a healer or buffer to watch my back nonstop, i dont have to look at my HP bar, i only have to look around for mobs, keeping them at me and never to worry about damage.

Why run so many armors and still can loose them all in 1 blink of a second (forgot rooted), where i can become a killer, a tanker, a nearly undestructable pile of rocks ready to face anything (.. .ok psi dmg excluded).

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yes, i was trying not to get on to 'what is tanking', but unfortunately it seems to be linked to most discussions on tanks, so there is no real escape.

with regards to defence... I'm sure you know the figures already, but GA gives you 3-5% more defence than normal armours to s/l and nrg/neg and 40% less to psi. GA does give a good boost to elem def, but the extra def to the rest is minimal compared to the res boost.

lastly, i dont hate GA.. it is a very good situational power, however the majority of the time it is simply not needed to function effectively. You wouldnt expect an invuln tank to drop unstoppable in the middle of a fight when his normal armours would more than suffice, so why is it expected that people should run GA when their normal armours would be sufficient?

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What I tend to focus on is that you are a Stone tank - You are there to take the damage better than anyone else; that’s your role in a team.

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and this, i guess, is where we fundamentally disagree. imo the primary role of a tank is not to "take the damage better than anyone else", it's to take, and keep aggro. i'd much rather team with a tank who dies taunting, than one who lets the aggro bounce off them but can survive anything you throw at it.

with my stone tank i tanked AVs, pylons, lvl 54 rikti and hami... whilst all the time keeping aggro just using mudpots and taunt, and giving out some decent AoE damage. why does anyone NEED the extra res that GA gives? is it honestly worth totally gimping yourself for a load of extra res you will rarely need?

There were two moments that made me want to build a 'stone' rather than 'granite' tank:
1) watching a stoney try to tank the psi clock king in GA, despite having minerals
2) watching a stoney get end drained by malta because he 'forgot' about rooted

i'm way too lazy to actually build one however, as i have too many toons to level up as it is. so when i10 came along and we got to choose a build to get lvld up to 50 for us on US test server.. i decided to try my planned build.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.153
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php

Mr Motivator: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armour
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armour -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(3), DefBuff(3), EndRdx(5)
Level 1: Scorch -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Heal(A), Heal(5), Heal(7), RechRdx(7), RechRdx(9), RechRdx(9)
Level 4: Combustion -- Dmg(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(19), Acc(19), RechRdx(23), RechRdx(23)
Level 6: Mud Pots -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(15), Acc(15), Acc(43), Taunt(45), Taunt(46)
Level 8: Rooted -- Heal(A), Heal(11), Heal(11)
Level 10: Recall Friend -- Range(A)
Level 12: Brimstone Armour -- ResDam(A), ResDam(13), ResDam(13), EndRdx(17)
Level 14: Teleport -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(27)
Level 16: Swift -- Run(A), Run(25), Run(25)
Level 18: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(46), Heal(46)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Crystal Armour -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(27), EndRdx(34), DefBuff(34)
Level 26: Tough -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(37), ResDam(37), ResDam(40)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Dmg(A), Dmg(29), Dmg(29), Acc(31), RechRdx(33), RechRdx(33)
Level 30: Weave -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(31), EndRdx(36)
Level 32: Granite Armour -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(33), DefBuff(34), ResDam(36), ResDam(36), ResDam(37)
Level 35: Taunt -- Taunt(A), Taunt(50)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- Dmg(A), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), Acc(39), Acc(40), RechRdx(40)
Level 41: Incinerate -- Dmg(A), Dmg(42), Dmg(42), Acc(42), Acc(43), RechRdx(43)
Level 44: Build Up -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(45), RechRdx(45)
Level 47: Minerals -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(48), DefBuff(48), EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Stone Skin -- ResDam(A), ResDam(50), ResDam(50)
------------
Level 1: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet

when i designed this build, i had never played a stone tank past lvl 4. I'll admit that there are a few changes i'd make to it now, having played it for a while.. mainly end redux in attacks. But slotting set IOs in the attacks would solve the end problem, and i'm sure a numina +regen +recov wouldnt go a miss either. I'd also like to fit in one of the epic holds somewhere

Firstly, any comments on the build are more than welcome. they are very unlikely to happen, because the toon is merely a test toon, with no respecs on the US test server.... however i'd like to know where you think i've gone right/wrong...

having played the toon, i'm also at somewhat of a loss as to why people run perma-GA tbh.. It seemed no squisher than any other tank i've played, and happily tanked AVs, pylons, lvl 54 rikti and even hami.. so i was just wondering what anyone who plays perma-ga has as their reasoning for it? most people i've spoken to before seem to feel that their tank is squishy without GA, is that common concensus or are there other reasons?

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"Herding" by which I mean gathering several groups together has got to DIE!

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it already has... herding several 8man spawn size mobs, you'd hit the aggro cap almost straight away and most of your herd will stand there looking like you never even came near them.

as max said though... herding does still rock in small teams

couple of points:

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Energy/Negative:
Plasma Shield gives 30 per cent, and 47 per cent when 3-slotted. Not imba, but better than Ice and Invulnerability.


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that is the highest nrg/neg resist available to tanks outside their tier 9's.

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Defense:This is where u lack.
only easy-to-get defense is weave(from fighting pool) and Combat Jumping from Leaping.They give 6.8 per cent defense,
9.8 when 3-slotted weave(3-slotting CJ's low bonus not recommended of course)


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having looked at this post, i decided to try a build in mids' hero builder.... using the reactive armour, multi-strike and touch of death sets, and a little creative gimping (not very much, a couple of powers dont have quite optimal slottings tho). i now have a fire/fire build with the above mentioned resistances... plus! 33% def (melee), 30%def (AoE) and 18% def(ranged).

not bad for five minutes worth of a build.. could do with some refinement tho cause its very roughly done, but those numebrs should be achieveable without any gimpage

i've had a tank in granite get KB'd a few times. normally only vs occasional av's or things that explode though

i just wish you could rename the pets.. such a stupidly long name

i agree with what sinergy has to say there

on a personal note though, i'd take rage instead of handclap. if you're planning on using granite a lot, rage is useful. it gives you a good accuracy buff, allowing you to focus your attack slotting more on recharge and damage. and it gives you a damage buff itself too.

hmm, maybe its changed since i lvld my ws then. it used to be the case that it'd vanish mid animation and instead of the body rising you'd just get the purple rez circle animation on the floor.

happy birthday btw

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Well, if the dead body would indeed despawn during the animation and - as a logical result - not be there anymore when it's finished you actually had a point.

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thats what it does...

i have never had extract fail on me when the body has still been visible at the end fo the animation. As soon as the body starts to fade out, it no longer exists as far as the game is concerned.

you extract a corpse, halfway thru the corpse starts to fade, animation finishes but no pet appears.

tbh, when you know the bug exists.. which is something you notice quite quickly, it's not hard to just make sure that you're firing off extract on a recently dead baddie

this has always been the case.

basically, the pet is created at the end of the animation rather than at the start. Because the animation is so long, if the body has started to vanish when the pet tries to be created, the pet creation fails. this does, however, also allow for an interesting use of the bug if you're creative...

oops, yeah, i forgot about hoarfrost

hitpoints? dunno off the top of my head.. 3k ish

i can happily say that neither my ice nor invuln tanks have a problem with rikti.

yes, invuln tanks res is biased to s/l... but the rikti melee attacks do a lot of s/l.. and really, you should be building your invuln tank more towards def than res these days anyway imo

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When it comes down to it, you're a Tank - don't be a Statesman and only taunt or engage those mobs that you think you can probably handle without any trouble. It's your job to take on the toughest mobs as well as the weak, so that the squishier members of your team don't have to and if you don't think you can handle it, just close your eyes when you jump in to take the alpha.


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all so true.. i'm also impressed that someone else remembers that interview.. thought it was just me.

when it comes down to it though, a tank is only as good as their team. with a good defender/troller you can take on anything.. but you should be willing to jump in to the gates of hell itself spamming taunt to protect your team, even if you know it means certain death.

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I am kinda amazed so many say /fire is the way for dealing damage. My currently Granite came to a point that he is able to kill things quite fast now, using perma rage and fire epic. I wonder how i do versus a fire/fire and going 4 group spawns in a row (BU vs rage).

I'm fully focused on +recharge bonus, currently at 47,5% and the magic 65% (as stated by nofuture) penalty is within reach.

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wanna race my ice/fire through a mish?

SS is, imo, definately the second best damage dealer.. its just a [censored] u gotta wait till lvl 38 for footstomp. Fire gets fsc at 28, which deals more damage than footstomp. AND it gets combustion at lvl 4, AND can then also get fireball if it really wants to...

yeah.. i went from an ice/fire to an inv/nrg and dear god is it dull!

personally, i think it's the secondary. The tank can take any damage you throw at it, and i love unstoppable dearly... but energy melee is booooring. to be honest, i need a pet fireblaster to enjoy the tank at all.. i'm too used to being able to deal damage.

soloing with it is a joke, and on big teams all you do is herd them up and take the alpha.. then stand there being bored whilst the team holds and slaughters them.

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inv/em... basically at lvl22 you should only be using whirling hands for gauntlet/stun and bonesmasher on the odd boss.

[/ QUOTE ]And air superiority, and spamming barrage for gauntlet if you don't have taunt.

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eewww flight pool... heathen

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Does anyone but my try and build tanks without Stamina, I have two tanks an Inv/EM at level 22 and a Stone/War mace at level 20. This far I haven't really felt any need for Stamina as long as I'm willing to slot End Red and gobble a few blue every now and again. I don't think I ever seen any other tank without it, so I'm wondering is Stamina necessary for a tank at higher level?

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inv/em... basically at lvl22 you should only be using whirling hands for gauntlet/stun and bonesmasher on the odd boss. you won't actually get any good attacks until lvl 35.

in a team with inv/em you can happily survive without stamina. your function, imo, is to keep stuff hitting you rather than the other team members.. so i basically just cycle WH, taunt and ET (on bosses). Solo, however is a different ball game. Even with stamina if i try to solo, i end up having to drop unstoppable every now and then cause i'm about to run out of end. Having said that... soloing an inv/em is one of the dullest experiences i've had in the game. you can herd a whole map and they cant even scratch you... but dear god it takes an eternity to kill them!

yeah.. if you ever want to solo a tank for more than half a minute and actually kill anything, stamina is pretty much a must have. ice can get away with it, cause of energy absorbtion and hibernate.. but having to use hib to regain your end is really annoying.. do-able, but annoying.

i'd like staff in the base!

New option, like the base decoration tabs, but for 'staff'. You then pick the npc skin you want, and place them. They dont do anything other than saying things like "Hi there <hero name>, nice going with <villain group> the other day!" etc... when you walk past. You could have various npcs to use; random pedestrians, lab technicians, butler/barman, wizard/mage, longbow dude, doctor etc.. some could walk round the room, and some could stand still so you could place them at workstations or as guards at the entry to the base

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iirc, the only pure energy attacks in the game are anti-matter's silver robot things (and they do -def attacks.. yipee!!) All other energy attacks have both an s/l and an energy component. the number of similar lvl enemies which could do 3k's worth of energy/elemental damage is very small, i.e. none afaik (maybe some random av/gm.. but none that i recall meeting)


[/ QUOTE ]All electric/radiation blasts are pure energy. All dark blasts (except torrent, which isn't much of a damage power anyways), as well as some dark melee attacks, are pure negative energy. All flamethrowers, fire breats, etc. are pure elemntal.

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i actually meant that the praetorians exclusively use pure energy attacks.. from my recollection they only use irradiate when in melee, and an energy blast in melee or ranged. don't know if that's correct or not, but i never recall seeing them melee other than irradiate

apologies if that seemed misleading. all other energy using enemies (freaks, clocks etc..) have pure energy blasts, but use melee attacks when in melee range.. which if you're an inv/ice tank, they should be for 90% of the time imo.