Miladys_Knight

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Not sure if I'd ever try it on a melee toon.

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I don't think I'd ever try that on a Defender. :P I can't help but wonder if that scatter is actually hurting your survivability more than it's helping. It's spreading things out so that DN, Fluffy, and DN are all less effective, while at the same time reducing your ability to stack tohit debuffs from TT and NF. Couple that with the fact you can knock things out of your own Tar Patch... Ungh. Just doesn't seem worth it to me.

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Actually, I'm Cold/Dark w/that build, but same general problems (Sleet instead of Tar Patch, etc) apply. And yeah, like I said, I'm really not fond of the effect. Then again, I only really even took OG as a Stupefy mule, and don't run it all the time. When I do, it's to stack w/Dark Pit--I never try to stun just minions w/OG by itself. I *would* run it all the time w/o the KB proc tho since there's no other reason not to (the HP drain is more than covered by Health and +regen).

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It works for me though because I'm playing an Emp/Dark/Dark and using it as an end free repel for lieuts and bosses (the minions get stunned) that the tank doesn't have control over (usually when they exceed the aggro cap). Most of the buffs I'm using have a long animation time I'm locked into and it's saved me a number of times when this happens and it procs. Also good when I get into close but not melee range to pop Auras during combat.

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I don't think they're rare... more like well done.

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Definately rare. Rare is a cool red center.

A rare done Cold Defender should be warm through the middle, lightly charred on the outside, browned around the sides and bright red in the middle. The Cold Defender should be soft to the touch, feeling like a raw Cold Defender but browned over the surface.

Cook this Defender as hot as possible for a very short period of time, probably about one to two minutes per side for a one inch thick Cold Defender (depending on your Fire Corruptor).

This is the Defender for the true carnivore who wants raw Defender, but gets it cooked (as little as possible) to be polite.

Edit - A potential excerpt from the Book "To Serve Man" (Twilight Zone, Season 3, Episode 89)

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This is my favorite Frankenslotting guide:

The Viva Las Vegas Intermediate Guide To IO's

You're basically slotting IO from different sets based on the primary benefit of the IOs, disregarding potential set bonuses. You do this because set bonuses are what tend to make two otherwise identical IO's more or less valuable. When you frankenslot, you can take the cheaper of the two because you don't care about the bonuses.

PS - It works GREAT!

EDIT - WTF...That's the guide in Fulmen's sig! lol Good on ya, Fulmens. Nice guide.

EDIT2 - I would recommend it at low levels, say 25-35. Past that point, money usually is less of an issue and you have more selection of IOs (because you can use 10-38 you have more to choose from and can usually find a cheaper deal!)

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You can easily begin Frankenslotting at level 15 though you will probably want to replace them in the 25-30 range in anycase.

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Just for kicks I slotted the Stupefy chance for KB into OG and it was one of the funniest things to watch. It was on my Spines/Dark so it looked like sometimes the quills would shoot out and knock things around.

Not practical but funny

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It's very practical for the defender version of OG which is why I have the proc there.

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You know, dealing damage and personal mitigation is the defender forté. Debuffing defence and resistance = increased damage. Debuffing accuracy and damage output = personal mitigation. Even Empathy, arguably the "worst" solo set, has a fast-recharging heal as well as a couple of massive regen and recovery buffs. Inspirations to cover any ****** in the armor and maybe sharpen up the sword a little, and voilà! Instant soloist.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Cold Domination: 6/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Dark Miasma: 9/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Empathy: 3/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Force Field: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Kinetics: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Radiation Emission: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Sonic Resonance: 4/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Storm Summoning: 8/9 powers benefit the mighty solo defender.
Trick Arrow: 9/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
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Taken as a whole, 60/81 powers benefit the solo defender, and only two primaries have less than half their powers available to the solo defender. I submit that the challenge is to build the defender that cannot benefit from his or her primary when solo, rather than building one that can. Force multiplier? Hell yeah. Most defenders are pretty offensive by default The ones that aren't, such as my emp/arch, have a second build for soloing that takes fewer of the team-only powers in favour of other, more useful ones.

Not to call anyone on their playing skill, but an anecdotal inability to survive solo doesn't indicate anything other than the need for more experience or a willingness to play in other styles. However, if one is unwilling to play an AT for whatever reason, that's fine! Hell, I won't play controllers, dominators, or stalkers, because I don't like the playstyle. However, that's not evidence that there is anything wrong with those ATs.

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Actually dealing damage is a blaster/scrapper forte' and mitigation for most defender sets ISN'T personal mitigation it's team mitigation with the barest amount possible spilling over to the defender (forcefields is a prime example).

You created a nice little chart there but what is missing from it is that 9/9 of the primary powers (with the possible exception of storm) benefit the team as much or more than they benefit the defender.

Taken as a whole most other ATs have a much better ratio of self benefit than 60/81 and most others can play just as well solo or teamed with what ever their SO only build is rather than going to the expense of explicitly spending twice the inf to outfit both a solo and teaming build with IOs.

I would also point out that you've put your finger right in the real difference between controllers using the same secondary that defenders are as a primary....

The solo controller (with a couple exceptions) is a team once they get their pets and they still benefit from all the useable on others only powers in their secondary by leveraging them through a pet(s).

One of the easiest fixes to defenders other than a more balanced and effective inherrent might be to add a pet to each of the Defender epics to allow the defender to make use of those team only primary powers while solo.

My wife is fond of saying, "I have 2 goals for my toons, beat stuff up and stay alive." Many players have that philosophy which translates into "dealing damage" and "personal mitigation" whether that be passive like defense/resistance toggles, or active like hard or soft controls.

She doesn't like defenders because, quite frankly, they are deficient in both categories particularly when solo, which is where she spends 90% of her play time.

The main problem is that most defender buffs that make them huge team contributors can't be used by the defender on themselves. Changing them to allow it would be vastly overpowered but this is the root of the problem. All Defenders are force multipliers on any team, but solo you are multiplying by one and gain little unless you are building a defender combination specifically to be an offender and using primary and secondary power sets that play a bit less to the team.

The Defender is the one and only remaining archtype who in all combinations are designed around teaming and haven't had a mechanism added to allow them to solo.

Ice/Ice blasters are very "controllery" to the point where you can easily spend so much of your time "controllering" that you can forget to kill the mobs.

Sonic/Ice is also a very controllery blaster.

I'd venture to say that /devices is safer than /ice but that additional safety comes at the cost of long set up times.

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2 ignored posters in a row in a thread on the same subject that got them ignored in the first place...

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hey, are you peeking at my monitor?!?

=P

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I never would have thought u use the ignore feature in the forums. I've found myself coming close, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I've managed to get myself to laugh at the people I want to ignore.

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I have only two people on the forums on permanent ignore. One I found to be a bithering nitwit who's very existance is so far into left field that I'm not even sure he's playing this game on this planet.

The other such is a belligerant jerk who is either gleefully clapping his hands over any and every nerf ever put into place or is pretty much telling folks who don't play exactly the same way he does that they are idiots that have no idea how to play. He definately and consistantly puts the schaden in schadenfreude.

The rest of the folks that could fall into the ignore category I leave off ignore for the simple fact that their low IQ prattle is amusing rather than toxic.

Because Tough Hide is set to ignore enhancements and buffs.

Tanker defenses/shields/auras are their primary. Tanker attacks (which gauntlet relies on) are mainly in their secondary.

Scrappers which have attacks in their secondary can critical with the secondary powers.

Controllers with controls in their secondary (trick arrow and rad come to mind) can achieve containment using their secondary and also get containment from targets that are mezzed/immob'd/contained by other team mates that have controls (and not simply other controllers).

Even the Stalker inherent (Assassination) relies greatly on the secondary to produce the effects (Hide).

Inherent Powers

Mids doesn't take into account all the tricks you can do with IOs and HOs.

3 slotting Active defense with Membrane HOs - the def buff part of the Membrane increases the amount of def debuff resistance granted.

Double stacking Active Defense through global +rech doubles the amount of def debuff resistance provided by the power if it s boosted by Membranes you get that benefit twice also.

Slotting battle agility for defense increases your def debuff resistances.

Slotting Grant Cover for defense increases your def debuff resistance.

Mids only takes into account the base values of the def debuff resistances in these powers.

Earth or Plant with Storm or TA. You've eliminated all the really good primaries and secondaries for TF with the exception of storm.

Given your, very much too narrow, criteria however, Earth/Storm will be your best bet.

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Off the top of my head all inhereints are linked to the primiary sets. Milady's suggestion is not geared toward the primary sets but toward secondary.

The real problem is defender's can't use thier primary on themselves except for a limited number of powers. If that is going to be the excuse to change negligence into an attack buff, it still defeats the primary purpose of defenders, which is to defend.

The inherient should be changed to provide the defender with a benefit related toward the primary sets not the secondary sets.

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The off the top of your head is incorrect.

Blaster defiance works on both the primary and secondary (defiance buffs)

Domination builds up by using both the primary and secondary and it's effects (on live) increase both the control duration and magnitude of the primary AND the damage ouput from the secondary.

Fury generation in Brutes is caused both by using the primary (attacking) and using the secondary (being attacked).

Controller containment applies to any damage that the controller does in the secondary as well as the primary. The main difference here is that very few controller secondaries (aside from storm) deal significant damage.

Current Vigilence endurance discounts for Defenders apply to both the primary and secondary powers.

Tanker gauntlet applies when the tanker makes an attack which is mainly from the secondary but also applies if the tank has a damage aura/power in the primary.

I'd go on but from the above you can see that it's not set in stone and that you are mis-remembering.

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Woah, that's a big thread. Anything ever come of it?

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Yeah, I learned about the forum ignore function, added two people to my ignore list, and got a warning from a moderator for calling a troll a troll, which is apparently trolling. Also I think I may have gotten a few more gray hairs.

I may end up still doing this project after I sufficiently cool off. The response to the proposal from the marketeers was "Great idea but it won't do any good." Surprisingly (at the time), a bunch of people jumped in to mock my ideas and imply that everything I would present as fact is actually opinion. They further implied that I had some sinister reason to want to educate people other than the fact that I don't want to have to repeat myself a million times. *shrug*

The end result was me throwing up my hands and saying, "[censored] this and [censored] you" and leaving my own thread. So yeah, maybe one day because I still think it's a valid idea, but I don't know if I could take the heat that'd come down from the trolls if I did it.

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That about sums it up.

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I play almost exclusively redside. I can easily buy everything I want and everything I want is available.

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I play almost exclusively blueside. I can easily buy everything I want and everything I want is available. There just isn't enough content Red side to keep me interested and though the out side zones are rather small there is too much "junk" in the way to allow me to use my favorite form of travel (Super Speed) without also having to take a second travel power. Slotting up hurdle isn't enough in most places. Sure I can rely on the Raptor Pack unless I'm playing a toon that doesn't allow it for concept reasons but I still find it annoying enough that it's just one more reason I avoid Red side.

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Actually the separate markets make a lot of sense.
On the Black Market I could buy some stuff that would be out of my price range on the CH, just because there are more people and so they can better control the prices.
I like having my markets separate.

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You've got that exactly backwards. Lower inventories and turn over make it vastly easier for a single person to control a large portion of the market. This is the case on the red side.

Blue side there is more availability, hence more competition, hence a much harder time for a single person or even a cartel to corner the market.

They wouldn't actually "need" to do that. There are precedents like non-targetted PBAoEs building domination and the like. Adding more complexity means that it's more likely to get back burnered or put off an issue or 2 if they decide to pick it up.

Additionally most of the defender primaries have a non-targettted buff that they could use to bring longer term buffs back up. Ice for instance has Snow Storm. The sets that don't have those type powers do seem to have toggles. Perhaps they could set it up so that toggles in the primary set provide the buff the entire time they are active to compensate for that but really I don't see it as needed.

Since Empathy all ready gets the most benefit from current Vigilence I don't really see a problem or a need to make it more complicated to start with. But Castle is the powers guy and that would be what beta testing would be for.

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Nice idea, Milady's Knight.
The Recharge bonus is interesting. It would benefit some sets more than others, particularly Empathy, which has a lot of long recharge buffs.

Force Fields, in contrast, has none, well, Repulsion Bomb would be up more I guess.

The downside is, there would be a benefit from "rocking the aura" to keep up the recharge bonus for Recovery Aura and Regen Aura to come back up as soon as poss.

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That's why it's a 2 fold buff. Sets like empathy will get more use out of the +rech portion of it where sets like FF will get much more use out of the endurance reduction. It is much more balanced with my proposal than current Vigilence is.

As far as Aura rocking goes that is still done today but if you look at the cast +rech time of Healing Aura you can see that Aura rocking alone will not provide full Vigilence bonuses, a behavior that would eventually be self regulating.

By the time you have enough influence to afford a build that can stack healing Aura 5 times in 10 seconds you should also have gained enough experience to realize that this would be the poorest playstyle choice to attain that level of personal vigilence buff.

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Miladys_Knight , I like your concept. It is a solid suggestion and bettering the endurance cost as well as the recharge promotes more activity. But what happens when that increased activity backfires and draws more aggro than you can handle? Even still I would say your idea is better than what we have. Well done good sir, well done indeed.

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Well solo all the aggro is yours anyway. Teamed you are likely to have melee or controllers and you can build up your Vigilence buffs by.... buffing first. While someone else on the team opens.

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I think you may have to high of hopes for Going Rogue. I really doubt it will allow you to make a full transition to the other side but will instead place you in an alternate version with limiations ... but what do I know? I haven't seen anything to say one way or the other, I'm just keep my expectations low.


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I agree... I don't think anyone should get their hopes up too much at this point until more details are released.

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If the expansion Going Rogue allows me to switch the "real" Paragon City from the Isles and vice versa the developers have a sale. If not and its an alternate "reality" I won't be buying.

If the dev intention of the market is to allow the free flow of goods from one player to another rather than allow for profiteering (which seems to be the case since they have added merits and tickets rather than increasing drop rates) then keep the markets separate is going in the opposite direction from that goal.

If Going Rogue puts you in an alternate "reality" complete with it's own self contained economy it will just further dilute the markets on both red and blue side since the total CoX population will be spread across 3 non-linked areas rather than 2.

This would seem to be poor economic planning on the game level on the devs part if so.

Slotting for increased resistance in True Grit is of minimal value. It suffers from both lower starting values and lower enhancement values (schedule A at 33% for Heal vs schedule B at 20% for Resistance.)

Slotting heal enhancements in One with the Sheild has minimal value as well. If you have True Grit slotted for ED capped health increases and all the +max hit point accolades on your scrapper then when you click the unenhanced version of OwtS you are only 100 hit points from the scrapper HP cap. That 100 hit points is quite easy to pick up from +hit point set bonuses making any heal slotting in OwtS pretty much a waste.

(Remember that's post-accolades. Pre-accolades it can be of benefit to slot it for heal provided you want to spend a respec on taking them out later after you have gotten the accolades)

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Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.


edit for disclaimer: I don't think Corruptors or Defenders really have problems, but the excuse provided - a ranged damage secondary - is pathetically weak and if that's the justification given then Defenders certainly shouldn't be the first looked at.

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Actually there's nothing wrong with Corruptors and Defenders should be addressed first. If you don't believe me I put this suggestion to you.

Swap inherents and see who's hosed. I'd drop Vigilence for Scourge in less than half a heart beat with out even blinking.

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Read the entire post you quote. Particularly the italicized part.

And you'll never manage to convince me that Defenders should get a damage increase before Corruptors.

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I did read all of it and I play them both. The only 50 villian I have is a corruptor. I have the opposite point of view from you. You can't convince me that Corruptors should be looked at first. The 2 ATs are nearly identical. The main differences being red/blue flavor and a a decent inherent that works solo red side compared to a crappy inherent that has variable levels of performance and provides no benefits solo on blue.

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Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.


edit for disclaimer: I don't think Corruptors or Defenders really have problems, but the excuse provided - a ranged damage secondary - is pathetically weak and if that's the justification given then Defenders certainly shouldn't be the first looked at.

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Actually there's nothing wrong with Corruptors and Defenders should be addressed first. If you don't believe me I put this suggestion to you.

Swap inherents and see who's hosed. I'd drop Vigilence for Scourge in less than half a heart beat with out even blinking.

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I do not disagree that Vigilance is a comparatively weak inherent and should be reviewed for alternatives, though I do not find it a "gross imbalance" but rather a minor one. I do question several of the premises leading to the suggestion that defenders need a damage boost.

1st. That the secondary is devoted solely to damage.

Except for Archery, the debuff aspect from the secondary is very substantial and contributes to the performance of the set (which again, to a large degree is NOT "devoted solely to damage")

2nd. That controllers and tankers bring more damage to a team than a defender.

This is situationally based, depending on the powerset combinations being compared and should not be taken as sufficient justification for an AT-wide damage boost.

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Vigilence nee Negligence is an extremely weak inherent. It provides wildly differing levels of benefit.

Solo it provides none. On small teams especially of experienced players it provides little. On large teams it provides the level it should provide but generally only if there is a mix of experience and ATs on the team.

It provides maximum benefit to poor defender playstyles (read that as reactive h34l0rs) and minmal benefit to active playstyles.

It provides maximum benefits to defenders who focus on repairing damage and minimal benefit to defenders who operate by preventing damage to begin with.

It varies so much that it is nearly impossible to properly slot end reduction enhancers except for solo defenders who all ready know that their benefit from Vigilence will be "0"

I'll mention again what I have before.

The devs are happy with the DPA of defenders the chances of getting a damage boost are slim. (Especially when you consider the things that RO does publicly.) The main problem on defenders is the variable (and much too low IME) DPE.

What I have proposed in the past is a vigilence buff system rather than the current mechanic.

Any time a defender activates a power from their primary or secondary they get a vigilence buff that lasts 10 (perhaps 15 since many defender buffs take 2-3 seconds to cast) seconds that has the effect of reducing the defender's end costs by 5% AND reduces the recharge of their powers by 5%.

The defender can stack a maximum of 5 of these buffs at any one time capping the benefit from vigilence at a 25% reduction to end costs and recharge.

This accomplishes several things.

1) Vigilence provides exactly the same benefit to each and every Primary/Secondary combination.
2) Vigilence fuctions properly no matter what size team you are on and works solo.
3) Vigilence functions properly regardless of the experience of the team.
4) Defender DPA remains unchanged.
5) BUT Defender DPS is slightly increased by allowing the defender to cycle their hard hitting single target attacks a little more often.
6) AND defender DPE is increased and remains consistant across all defender power set combinations.
7) This style Vigilence would also provide higher reward for good, proactive defender play, rather than providing higher rewards for, poor, reactive play.

And arch/dev or arch/ice for safety while soloing.