Mieux

I can't speak for other Ir but i'm laughing.

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Relax there little fella.

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but I have to laugh at the general sentiment in this thread that this is somehow unfair.


[/ QUOTE ] Laughing is very relaxing little fella.

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Seriously though, play a stalker for awhile.

[/ QUOTE ] More importantly...fight stalkers. You don't truly know a powerset until you fight against it with various AT's. People who play stalkers only get their perspective ..restricted by their own inabilities.

As someone who focuses on fighting stalkers, I get a fuller picture of what they can do against a wide range of player ability. And it's not like I don't have a Stalker.

I didn't say Stalking was easy or difficult. Just as some people find it easy to get mass kills with little risk, some find it hard. How do the devs balance that?

What I am laughing at is how people feel it is unacceptable that even ONE power should stack thus.

...not like this mentality is limited to Stalkers mind you...but it its manifistation here is the funniest.

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not the usual scenario*** But they might end up limiting clear mind to not stack from the same caster anymore

[/ QUOTE ] I love it. Here is ONE power in the entire game that can allow a team a guaranteed way to see all Stalkers and people who play stalkers wanted it eliminated.

Nevermind that it doesn't stop you from still getting AS crits. And god forbid a team should have a way to totally prevent you from sneaking up on them. Nevermind that AT's that can do it are totally susceptible to being one-shotted...regardless of whether they can see you.

Stalkers have no problem with their entire AT forcing all the other toons to change their playstyle in PvP...but can't suffer one power set, causing them difficulty.

Retro, I realize you aren't saying they "should" do this, but I have to laugh at the general sentiment in this thread that this is somehow unfair.

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The point I was trying to make was ...

[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).

WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.

The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.

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Fine let me put this in simple english:

WoW: Me druid, I got your flag and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.

CoH/V: Me stalker, I got your butt and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.

Is my point clearer now? You accept what you can/can't do (as in WoW you can't hold/immob etc a druid) and change your strategy for it. Adapt your strategy for the situation.

You got a stalker you can't slow/immob then you hit him with overwhelming damage as fast as you can and hope it's enough.

[/ QUOTE ]No...your'e missing the pont. "Capturing the flag" is not a product of specific powers. There is nothing special about "capturing the flag." EVERY toon can capture the flag in WOW, even if they can't get away. EVERY toon cannot one-shot squishies in CoH.

The poster you responded is pointing that out: the combination of two special abilities. You don't recognize that. Your analogy fails for that reason.

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I was 1) referring to team enviornment (not 1v1) and 2) simply stating that if you can't do the norm (hold/immob/slow) then you've got to adjust and if nothing else use overwhelming force, period.

Now I'm sorry you feel the need to sit here and nit-pick my analogy instead of actually contributing to the thread but that's your choice.

[/ QUOTE ] 1) I'm not sure what teaming has to do with the discussion, but for the record, he was talking about his experiences in teams, not 1v1.

2) That's fine, but you were responding to someone's issue about the combination of two things, which in their opinions, was unfair/too much/imbalanced. You are completely ignoring the point of their post while stating a trueism: If you can't stop them, then you need to do something else. That's not the problem he was addressing. He doesn't have a problem with the fact that they can escape and he can't stop them. He has a problem with the fact that they can one-shot him AND he can't stop them, and nor can anyone on the team.

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Now I'm sorry you feel the need to sit here and nit-pick my analogy instead of actually contributing to the thread but that's your choice.

[/ QUOTE ] Because you're trivializing his argument with a false analogy. You aren't contributing to the discussion, you're undermining it. Exposing that is hardly nit-picking.

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The point I was trying to make was ...

[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).

WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.

The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.

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Fine let me put this in simple english:

WoW: Me druid, I got your flag and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.

CoH/V: Me stalker, I got your butt and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.

Is my point clearer now? You accept what you can/can't do (as in WoW you can't hold/immob etc a druid) and change your strategy for it. Adapt your strategy for the situation.

You got a stalker you can't slow/immob then you hit him with overwhelming damage as fast as you can and hope it's enough.

[/ QUOTE ]No...your'e missing the pont. "Capturing the flag" is not a product of specific powers. There is nothing special about "capturing the flag." EVERY toon can capture the flag in WOW, even if they can't get away. EVERY toon cannot one-shot squishies in CoH.

The poster you responded is pointing that out: the combination of two special abilities. You don't recognize that. Your analogy fails for that reason.

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The point I was trying to make was ...

[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).

WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.

The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.

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Anyway it just makes me think of Druids in WoW.

[/ QUOTE ] Just out of curiosity, can Druids one shot squishies and two shot scrapper types in WoW?

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If I placate you, all your buddies can still see me.

[/ QUOTE ] That's not correct. I tested this in Siren's. Had a Stalker Placate a mob...and he disappeared. Without a perception power, the hide will start about 5 seconds after the placate and is timed to expire with the placate effect.

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...Scrappers never even got the ability to Crit until I3

[/ QUOTE ] Really? I came in I2 and I remember critting...I thought they just upped the crit values in I2 for bosses and Lt's. In fact, I remember sending Statesman a PM recommending that if they wanted to give us a specific role (though I'm sure he had the idea before I PM'd him).

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f you're asking what I think you're asking, I'm confused by this question....how would the text from someone else's crit show up in his text window? Is there an option to turn this on?

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He was probably asking to see if the stalker was teamed with a Dominator. That whole thing where stalkers have a chance to crit against held/slept foes might have been a contributing factor if a dominator was present.

Just my guess.

[/ QUOTE ]Forgot about that, that would make more sense. Tho I do wish I could record the combat logs of others.

It seems quite plausible that the Hidden state does not disable the inherent crit chance of a power. If that's true, I'm sure data mining will show that it happens exactly 15% of the time. The reason it may have taken so long to show up is

1) there aren't a whole lot of Stalkers at that level

2) it requires that people review the logs.

3) the vast majority of hidden attacks are probably AS not the higher critting attacks.

4) for the people who have seen it and are aware of it, it might seem normal and there was no reason to /bug it or post about it

5) the people who experience it aren't automaticaly going to be one of the people who post period.

Still, double crits...which means 3X normal damage is pretty massive...expecially when its tacked on to the higher damaging attacks.

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I've never heard of a level 32 Scrapper power doing a triple Critical (or a quadruple critical for that matter).

[/ QUOTE ] You just gotta believe in yourself _SWA_...

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Were you playing solo?

[/ QUOTE ] if you're asking what I think you're asking, I'm confused by this question....how would the text from someone else's crit show up in his text window? Is there an option to turn this on?

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Holy Moly, Sorry for the rant

[/ QUOTE ] lol..hey man..it's bulletin board...no worries.

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I hope you respect the fact that this is the longest post I've ever made and that you address it.

[/ QUOTE ] I respect the effort and am appreciative of your concern. I'll shoot you a PM.

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I've fought you before in BB as The Whispering Blade and have one shotted you with 6 rages and build up.

[/ QUOTE ] Hey Voyeur. I was wondering how you did that. You were the only one to defeat me that day IIRC. You hit me for over 500 on the crit alone. I figured I had been wounded or maybe the global dmg resistance thing was severely in your favor. I had a blast chasing you guys around and goating you to chase me around. I recall there were like six of you guys swarming the water like sharks.

As for the rest of your post, you're missing the point of my questions. But thanks for the offer to help me level my Stalker. I will look you up to fight your Stalker once you get him up to lvl 33 or higher.

I've read through the player responses and of course none of them are surprising. Most, if not nearly all, fail to understand the motivation of the questions or the point of the examples e.g. the blaster phase shift situation is not statement about why Phase Shift was removed.

People want to turn this into a "whine" or a nerf call...none of which are true, but posters on these boards are overly protective of any advantage they do have or and aggressive againsts any posts that seeks to portrary it as unjustified. I can count on one hand the number of /Regen playing posters who said it was over-powered in I2. I recall being the only one to say /SR was way too good in I4 in PvE.

I'm interested in what the devs know to be true about stalker risk...not what they designed to be true. Unstoppable was designed to have a penalty that was supposed to balance it's use....but obviously what was expected to be true based on design, didn't turn out to be true in practice.

I'll pose as a rhetorical question to Castle that as the rep for Stalkers, allowing them to be overpowered would seem just as detrimental as allowing them to be underpowered. If the objective it so make sure that Stalkers are fun, the answer espoused by the devs as a team has been to increase the challenge...not remove it.

I shelfed my /SR for months before I4 because it had gotten boring. Missions were a joke. The slider came out and it was fun for about a week...and then I realized it was far too easy. At first, we saw the devs increase powers...then devs response to the problems in many cases was to reduce powers. In each case, I've enjoyed the game more when they increased the challenge. The best changes to the scrapper sets, IMO, were the ones that increased the challenge, not diminshed it. But it is important to target the reduction to the appropriate level/area of concern and not use a sledge hammer were a scalpel is required (that being said, I like ED for my Scrappers and Defenders). Obviously, there are people who would take Perma-Elude, I2 /Regen, and Perma-Unstoppable back in a heartbeat. I'm not one of them...and Cryptic seems to agree with me.

I'm not making any judgments on the general balance of Stalkers, despite what others might think. I'll point out things that seem unbalanced from where I sit, but I keep asking myself, "Self, what is this set suppoe to be able to do and not do?" I don't know what the "balanced" Stalker is suppose to look like in reality...I can see what is written on paper and like the huge endurance drain from old toggle IH, I see that savvy players have already figured out how to beat it.

I think a lot of those who play Stalker victims in this game would benefit from the devs giving us a much clearer picture of what kind of effect stalkers are supposed to have. How good are they suppose to be? Are solo toons expected to have to keep moving constantly or find teams in PvP Zones? Do you really expect Scrappers to take both Assault and Tactics if they want to solo? Is all of this part of your design or expectation? etc...etc...

But the question is not about how can I avoid Stalkers, it's about what the level of challenge and risk a Stalker is expected to experience..comparatively. Not the potential risk..the actual risk. How does the substantive risk compare to the substantive reward from the devs perspective?

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Here's a perfect example of the nature of the answers that I am looking for. You said, in regards to changing Build Up
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Right now, I don't see a need to change the Stalkers multiple, but datamining may show me that it needs to be improved.


[/ QUOTE ] What would tell you that it needs to be improved? What would tell you that it's too good?

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Also - Assault does have an effect on Placate. I've had Placate do "No Effect" before in PvP combat. It's not 100% resistance, but it DOES give you a chance to be unaffected.

[/ QUOTE ] I'll have to test for that...thanks.

We've all seen a lot of back and forth in the PvP boards about Stalkers. We've seen complaints in the Stalker threads about needing improvement...I've noticed you seem very receptive to the idea that Stalkers might not be good enough. There's no point in debating about overpowered vs underpowered because it is largely a subjective discussion and offers little clarity.

One thing I think that has to be put on the table is that it would seem improbable for the devs to 100% nail the "balance" of the Stalker AT in PvP right out the gate nor would I expect them too. I realize there was internal testing and beta testing, but I do not believe the devs would contend that the data was conclusive or complete under those circumstances.

However, I am intereted in the devs providing the player base with a statement about how they perceive the risk vs reward for stalkers in PvP.

1) When the Arena first came out, Positron said he wasn't overly concerned with the 1v1 battles because it was too much of a rock/papers/scissors affair. How do we reconcile the dev philosophy that 1v1 can't be balanced and yet make sense of a toon that is designed for 1v1 combat? How does one side-step 1v1 balance on one hand and then appropriately balance an entire AT for it on another?

2) The Arena is a situation where neither toon can leave the battle. Players, blasters in particular, were using Phase Shift to effectively gank and escape and the devs put a stop to it. Clearly ganking was not to be tolerated. What is interesting is that the Stalker AT is predicated on ganking. Its speciality is the 1v1 battle with the escape. Why take that ability away from blasters in consensual battles but promote and endorse it in another AT in non-consensual battles?

3) I am unaware of any AT power that doesn't have some counter in another AT without resorting to power pools. Defender buffs are unresistable, but yet people can buff themseves beyond those debuffs a la Fort, Build-Up, etc. Blasters have some unresistable damage, but the majority of it is resistable. Every status power has some opposing power that resists it. Fear, Holds, Sleep, even Slows, have their counters within the players very powers themselves. Even Taunt in PvP is not 100%. And yet, nothing resists Placate. Yes, I understand you can knock someone out of it...provding you somehow manage to trigger an attack that launched before Placate takes affect and hits after (you can't honestly say this is an expected skill). Or, you can launch a PBAoE and hope to hit, provided you have one. But this isn't resistance to the statusing power like every other status power has. Are there plans to offer the other sets resistance to Placate e.g. Give Clear Mind, Integration, Practiced Brawler, Ind Will, etc?

(Btw, Assault offers no usable protection against Placate. Don't know if it is a bug, but I stood there and let one placate me...and I was not able to target them at all...and certainly not within the time for them to launch an AS after running around for a few seconds...and no...Assault wasn't detoggled).

3) It seems that the AT's in CoH have their foils in CoV. And vice versa. Who is the foil for a Stalker? Who can consistently solo defeat Stalkers who do not want to be defeated to the same extent that they can defeat any solo AT that doesn't want to be defeated? ...I'm reading that Stalkers can one-shot tanks in BB and Siren's with enough Rages. No solo AT can achieve the invisilibty of Stalkers, so should Stalkers be the only set that doesn't have to constantly be looking over its shoulder for fear of some hero?

Again, my question is not about is this too much or not enough, but how you and the devs perceive the balance and most importantly, how the off-setting weaknesses are actually substantive. What do I mean by that? Geko stated that one of the reasons that they turned IH back into a click is that they could not balance it as a toggle. They had meant for it to have a great healing benefit, and thought the huge endurance drain would compensate. But players proved they could avoid this penalty by six slotting QR and Stamina. So the penalty, though substantial...was not substantive. The same thing was said about Perma-Unstoppable. People were compensating for the crash, so there was not substantive penalty. It existed on paper, but was easily compensated for in-game. People talk about toons with damaging auras are proof against Hide...but I recall you explicity saying you were able to crit a Fire Brute...through BA and defeat him.

I think it would help a lot of the players if you explain how the devs perceive the AT is balanced in PvP and how that actually plays out in PvP...not how it plays out theoritically.

For all the Pro-Stalkers posters out there. I like Stalkers. I like the element that the AT brings to CoH. The joy in defeating them is almost as enjoyable as beating blasters. I also have defeated Stalkers with my Scrappers 1v1, so I'm not even protending that Stalkers are invincible. My lvl 33 has defeated a lvl 40 Stalker in Warburg...several times. But each and every defeat of a stalker was only a result:

1) they simply chose not to use enough Rages to one shot me.

2) They stuck around for the fight.

and usually,

3) I was playing a /regen

In absolutely none of those situations could I have defeated the Stalker if they had decided to check out early. And ...I was defeated far more times by Stalkers that stuck around than I defeated. So it wasn't like I sailed to victory. I'm not asking for any changes. I'm asking for an understanding from the devs for how this AT fits within the context of PvP from a substantive Risk vs Reward model.

I don't believe for a second that it is an easy task to balance this type of AT for PvP, so I'm certainly not recusing the devs even one bit, I am trying to understand it from their perspective.

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The single-target Taunt is not supposed to work in PvP. If it is, it will be fixed in the next build.

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Sweet! Stalkers will no longer be able to hide behind their simple-minded brothers.

Fought a DM/Inv Brute in Siren's Call and after every attack the log showed a "you have been taunted" message.

Fought an EM/EA Brute solo in BB, who allegedly slotted his attacks with Taunt, and I did not get taunted once in several battles with.

Prior to that, I fougth a DM/DA in BB and I was getting taunted.

Do or are Brutes supposed to have a single-target Taunt on their attacks in PvP?

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Why then are lucks much stronger than resistance insps?

[/ QUOTE ] I believe Statesman, or maybe it was Geko, answered this specifically. He said the values were based on how many it took to reach the cap for each respective power. I think it was 14 small lucks to reach the cap for defense, so they wanted to require 14 small +res. The over sight is that most mobs are floored after a handful and any extras do you no good. Not true with +RES insp.

oh well.

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I also absolutely don't understand why in game mechanics +def is considered numerically to be worth double +res for balance purposes, yet the bonuses from the relevant inspirations are totally wrong.

[/ QUOTE ] The answer to this questions reveals very fundamental aspects of this game. It also explains why +DEF has such challenges in actual game play and why the devs seem to struggle with it.

If I understand your question, it's basically:

Why is 10% +DEF equal to 20% +RES?

Because of this golden rule: three minions = one hero.

10% +DEF against a base to hit of 50% is statistically equal to 20% +RES. 10% +DEF reduces an even level minions incoming damage by 20%. But the comparision has few other pivot points. Because attacks have secondary effects, +DEF provides us with a sort immunity. Can't be debuffed by an attack if it doesn't it. So on this level, one might argue that +DEF is better than statisically equivalent +RES. This argument, while true, is arguably overshadowed by in-game relaties. One is the alpha strike and survivability. +RES gives you more time to react and be healed.

There are also many pro and con arguments depending on how you implement the system. The fact that nearly all attacks have some S/L componenet makes Temp Inv provide a wide range of coverage where Foc Fight leaves /SR with some gapping holes on defense.

There are others, but I'll let others chime in if they so choose.

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CE's PBAoE slow is a much more powerful effect overall

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps. It's kind of hard to compare on a wholistic level since CE doesn't work on mobs out of range. I also find the +speed very valuable for running from fights and chasing down cry-babies in the arena (always play with no travel powers). But certainly for melee, CE is better.

The problem with the posters of having a PBAoE -recharge -slow is that it is fundamentally different (just talking to myself here). "bullet-time" doesn't debuff your enemies, it buffs you. So Quickness is a better mechanic for simulating BT as opposed to a CE type of effect. But they can't really give us BT or it might easily be too good. And the real obstacle, as you point out, is as we talked about way back when, you can't speed up the Activation.

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Except it's not bullet time, it's softball time.

[/ QUOTE ] lmao.

No, it's not "bullet" time, but when the poster asked about making enemies -slow and -recharge, it occured to me, that's exactly what they were trying to simulate...in manner of speaking.

Real 'bullet-time' was also about +DEF as you could see bullets and dodge them. Quickness doesn't simulate the increased avoidance.