McBoo

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As a Fire/SS I have no problem with Offense, I can hit 240% damage buff on my own.. The one thing I do see is, as I stated, the lack of a redundant role on a team for a Tank.

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What follows is an amalgam of some of the ideas tossed around by various people in the tanker forums. It's kind of like stances and would help make multiple tankers on one team more useful.

I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.

Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.

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Hense the stated drawbacks that would balance out the equasion.

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The problem is that the drawbacks are not enough of a drawback to make going with a scrapper preferable which creates in imbalance. If I am running a team and I have a choice between inviting a scrapper or a tanker that can effectively be a scrapper if the need arises I will invite the tanker every time because it is a more strategically sound decision.

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I am not saying balance in a vacuum, I am saying balance without the influence of potential people complaining.

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Time and again changes have been made to this game and then tweaked for the better based in part on outcry from the player base. Bear in mind that any input is normally backed up by data mining before subsequent are made but the change started "in the trenches" so to speak.

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Yeah, sure dark one. Tanks aren't already the pet archetype! Make them more powerful.

Tankers get the Gauntlet inherent because many players deny the fact that Tanks were meant to Taunt. Taunt is a very important power in the pool for archetypal reasons. Since many Tanks decided that they did not need this key power, the DEVs were forced to make Tanks do their job as part of a team.
One of them was the punch-provoke. The other is Gauntlet.


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Gauntlet is punch-voke.

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Am I the only Tanker that thinks Gauntlet is fine as is?

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I'm fine with it.

Pipe Dream, though: I'd like to see a short range control splash from powers that is tied to the Gauntlet effect on single target attacks (e.g., KoB would throw multiple mobs into the air, radiating from the primary target). And with powers that feature debuffs, a splash from that. With both? Probably one-or-the-other or both in a weaker state.

It'd make the proliferated sets different enough for Tanks to be fairly amusing (going back to KoB...that screen shake just deserves an AoE knockup).

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Something like this has been mentioned in other threads and is a great idea! It doesn't really change gauntlet as it works now it simply adds another, more visible, form of aggro management and, IMO, gives tankers a more powerful feel.

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Agreed, ranged attacks are their own form of defense. Adding them to an archetype that already possesses superior defense is overkill and invalidates the other archetypes in the game.

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Nerf Hurl and Epic pools!!!

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A single ranged attack is useful for runners and the epic pools are not offered until level 41. Adding dominator-like sets to tanker secondaries would give them 2 to 3 ranged attacks by level 10.

Also Johnny would be in the tanker forums screaming that tanker ranged damage needs to be increased because dominators, corruptors and blasters can deliver more damage.

If the idea is to improve tanker offense let's do so in a meaningful way that does not try and turn them into another archetype in the process.

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As to "How long until X starts screaming?"....who cares? Balance points of an AT should not be dependent on the vocal response of a separate AT. Lets focus on Tanks first...being that this is the Tanker forum.

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It's a question of balance but not balancing in a vacuum. Allowing tankers to become part time scrappers makes them the melee archetype of choice in every case. You get the best of both worlds in every mission and task force. Sure scrappers are pure damage but they can't keep the aggro off the squishies and they aren't much help in an over-aggro situation. Not like a tanker with an offensive and defensive mode that can change as the situation demands.

Furthermore the whole argument of tanker offense is based on the fact that we are not really focusing on tankers in the first place. We're being forced to look at other archetypes and being told that is who we should be emulating. The argument for increasing tanker damage in any way shape or form has been based solely on the fact that scrappers and brutes have more damage potential than tankers.



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I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.

Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.
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Or....
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Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2 attacks.

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Incidentally, I know it's kinda weird for me of all people to be pointing to the topic drift, but I think it's worth underscoring that this thread, from Ultimo, is about the idea of adding ranged attacks to tankers, which I'm against because it diminishes the distinction between ATs, because it gives more survivability to an AT that doesn't need it, because it's tricky to implement and because I can't see what the game really gains from it.

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Agreed, ranged attacks are their own form of defense. Adding them to an archetype that already possesses superior defense is overkill and invalidates the other archetypes in the game.

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I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.

Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.
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Or....
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Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2 attacks.

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Damage numbers are just a game mechanic, they don't reflect concept or power levels.

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Ah but they do. They are our feedback as players as to the power level trying to be conveyed.

That is why "weaker" attacks generally deal less damage and more powerful ones deal higher damage.

That is why more powerful enemies deal higher damage then grunts.

Damage is also how enemies are defeated. Ability to defeat enemies and the effort and time it takes you greatly influence how powerful a character is perceived. How am I to feel powerful about a Tanker who takes much more time to defeat a Boss or EB than a Scrapper or Brute who take less time, when all three ATs can stand up to said Boss's/EB's attacks?

Damage may not precisely equal power level in this game, but the two are far from strangers.



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As I've stated before this is indicative of an issue that needs to be addressed with the game system as a whole rather than with an individual archetype. Holds and debuffs should be on equal footing with damage when it comes to defeating foes rather than just adjuncts that make dealing damage easier.

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The only way I think this argument would ever be resolved would be to introduce stances as a Tank only inherent (I think Stars came up with the idea once, though borrowed from WOW).

Defensive: Everything is as we have it now.

Offensive: Scale the damage modifier to just below scrapper levels, lower Res and Def cap to balance the increased Offensive ability. Adds Critical hits that scale a bit below a Scrapper.

Switching can be done on the fly, but shares a similar long animation to a self teleport and detoggles you.

This would let you pick your role based on the needs of the team. It would also boost the solo capability of tank.

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Why play a Scrapper when Tankers can turn into Scrappers?

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QFT

As has been proven over and over in this game, players will take the path of least resistance. There's also the scrapper and brute backlash to consider. How long before scrappers and brutes start asking for their own version of stances that allows them to switch to a heavy defense mode from time to time? Or simply seeing scrapper and brute damage raised yet again to balance against the new offensive stance of the tanker which puts us right back here.

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I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.

Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.
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Or....
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Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2 attacks.

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Something interesting....

Thunderbird 1 - Class 2 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and durability. (INV/SS tanker)

Spider-Man - Class 10 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and agility. (MA/SR scrapper)

I guess some scrappers can hit harder than some tankers in the Marvel Universe.

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Just different concepts. In City of Heroes, the players dictate their own power levels, not the in-game numbers. A normal human vigilante is equal to a cosmic-powered demigod, as far as game mechanics go.

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Understood, I was just pointing out that using the canon as an example of how things "should be" in the game isn't all that reliable. By Marvel standards a controller type exists that is "stronger" than Johnny's example of an ideal tanker.

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[LIST][*]In teams, a second tank is redundant and usually undesirable, taken only because the first tank sucks, because nothing else was available while forming the team, or it was a buddy.

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I've never found this to truly be the case. Yes, a team might not Want the second tanker, but frequently the second tanker IS valuable. There are many many rooms with several groups easily aggrod but not close enough to keep taunted easily. The second tank is very useful there.

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And there are ways other than simply increasing damage to improve multiple tanker utility on teams. What follows is an amalgam of some of the ideas that have been tossed around thus far.

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I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.

Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.

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Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.

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I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.



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Which ideal though?

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One of the ones that aren't about being a mediocre damage rodeo clown.


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So it's kind of a Henry Ford sort of thing. Tankers can have any buff they want as long as it's damage?

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Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.

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I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.



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Which ideal though?

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hmm, I usually find those Russian Chairs just Oh so comfortable for those terrible long TFs with inadequate teams.

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Speaking of inadequate teams, I once soloed a 3 man Positron TF with a WP/EM tanker. It was slow and painful but I wanted to see if it could be done.

Just tossing this back up on the boards so that it doesn't get swallowed up.

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Why not take a page out of Champions' book and give tankers' Tier 1 and Tier 2 attacks an endurance building effect to help with endurance management?

Or.....

Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2.

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Something interesting....

Thunderbird 1 - Class 2 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and durability. (INV/SS tanker)

Spider-Man - Class 10 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and agility. (MA/SR scrapper)

I guess some scrappers can hit harder than some tankers in the Marvel Universe.

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No, I'm genuinely sorry.

If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.

Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.



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"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"

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We hates nasty Tankerses....

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no comic book Tankers

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That's just semantics.

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Says the man who was only recently arguing the importance of a picture of a Clockwork Boss over that of a picture of a Psychic Clockwork Boss.

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If you are looking for something that is super survivable and are willing to sacrifice damage to get it I would say go Stone/Ice. You'll never do alot of damage but you will be an aggro magnet and with the right slotting you'll be damn near unkillable even without Granite up.

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Well, yeah. The absolute hardest-to-kill monsters in the game are Stone/Ice and Stone/Dark. I'm hard-pressed to pick which is tops, it kind of depends on the enemies at the moment. But neither is a damage dealer in any real sense, and they're thin in the AoE department too. Making one is a conscious choice to be an anvil, not a hammer.

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True, the Stone/Ice combo is more about tanking and melee control than damage. If the OP is interested in farming than he or she will more than likely be teamed and Stone/Ice does a great job of locking down large mobs for the slaughter. Invy/Stone does a great job at tanking as well, I'm just offering up another option is all.

Failsight's review of both Invulnerability and Willpower are pretty much on the money.

I was happy through 50 levels of Invy/Stone. It's a solid combo with great survivability, reliable aggro control, good damage and a very powerful feel. Very "fire and forget" with some SMASH thrown in for good measure.

If you are looking for something that is super survivable and are willing to sacrifice damage to get it I would say go Stone/Ice. You'll never do alot of damage but you will be an aggro magnet and with the right slotting you'll be damn near unkillable even without Granite up.

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I'm sorry to see you let them break you.
Perhaps you're not the Tanker you thought you were.

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Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. You're entitled to your opinion - and making more half-arsed comments about my alleged 'lack of Tanker-ingness' as some kind of reverse psychological baiting if it makes you feel better - but at the end of the day, I'm not losing sleep over it.

I'm playing - and enjoying - the world they created. Do I want to have it differently? Of course. But until I make my own, I'll just be grateful they made this game.

But roll on J_B.

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Well said sir!

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Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker damage buff:


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Let's not refer to anything we talk about here as a 'tanker damage buff'.

That makes it sound as if people are seeking a blanket increse to Tanker damage or damage mod change, and I don't think anyone here is advocating that.

'Tanker offense change' seems more accurate to me, because that also includes ideas like stacking -res debuffs on attacks people have suggested and such.



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It's also important to note that merely increasing tanker damage output does nothing to make them stand out from the other melee archetypes which I believe was one of the points to this exercise.

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Although the tanker does not dies often he soloes slower than scrappers due to lower endurance efficiency. Tankers pay ~50% more end for their attacks than scrappers making them not only kill slower but also use much more endurance. This is not counting the tanker is forced to use his toggles for longer burning even more end if they want to "leverage" their survivability.

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Why not take a page out of Champions' book and give tankers' Tier 1 and Tier 2 attacks an endurance building effect to help with endurance management?

Or.....

Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2.

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just hoping its not the ONLY thing in issue 16..the last 3 issues are meh and very small

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Honestly, they can make just a full issue about this and I'll be very happy. But there will likely be some content added, be it arcs or TFs.

After all, power customization does not lock down mission writers from doing their thing.

As for issues not having anything, note that Issue 13 and 14 were supposed to be just one issue it was due to player feature request they forced to split it.

Issue 15 is turning to be more than just 2 TFs, it's also turning to be Dominator's Revamp. For many that may not sound like a big deal, specially if you don't play doms, but it's a huge revamp going on there.

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I am waiting for Electric Control before I play another Dominator. With Power Customization I won't have to worry about it being that awful red color either!

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That picture looks about right to me. You could easily substitute my Tanker for Statesman in it, or pretty much anyone else's.

Except Johnny's. He says they suck.

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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?



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It's not all that different from the way you slot Cobra Strike to do the same thing.

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EDIT *Ahem*
On who comic Tankers fight:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...avyhitters.jpg


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For the record, Statesman is an Incarnate and therefore overpowered by player standards.

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At your own link, Incarnate is an origin, not at AT. When is the last time Technology or Natural had a bearing on your role or abilities?



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And that origin is not available to players therefore it makes a poor case for single target, heavy damage tankers.