Madam_Enigma

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Everything factored in, I wouldn't take TA over Dark Miasma. Dark can heal, the ToHit debuff is significant enough to still effect AVs(I don't care about "The Unresistable Flash"), and that Darkest Night is a larger -Damage, then times two with the Dark Servant.

However, since I still refuse to play Dark Miasma or Force Field on Masterminds, I'm happy with Merc/TA.

[Edit]: Oh, also: Night Widows can do Unresistable -ToHit, so I guess between TT:M and Mind Link, Night Widows are better buffers/debuffers than both? Yeah, I went there.

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Personally, after trying a /dark mastermind (char story reasons) I wont pick dark miasma over trick arrow on a mastermind. The heal is powerful sure, but the aoe for it is really freaking small. I noticed pets had a tendency to move away from me while I'm trying to heal them, thus not getting the heal.

I also noticed darkest night's aoe seems smaller for masterminds, and it can be rather annoying trying to group the enemies in the smallish debuff area. Not to mention the fact that I noticed my pets loved to ignore my orders and kill the darkest night anchor first. It's like playing on a horrid ish-4 PUG with a dark defender all over again.

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[/ QUOTE ] I've seen Dominators without single hold at lvl 40!! That is only possible if they just join large team farm because I refuse to believe they can solo without single hold (ok, maybe at the easiest level but still)

Uhm, at level 20 my dom can't solo without the holds. In fact, I rely heavily on my primary to be able to survive dishing out damage. And my aoe controls are down too often to use them only.

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but for now comparing the numbers in /TA against what I can achieve with other secondaries it just doesn't feel worth it.

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I think this is where you and so many others make the mistake. You compare numbers. Just looking at the raw numbers though doesn't give the entire story. It doesn't tell you how the powers work together. Sure you can look and say "Ah ha! Low debuff numbers, it wont be very good". And yet those 'low numbers' end up being quite effective. Not so useful for soloing elite bosses usually, but effective still.

Not to mention in large teams I find it's more useful then someone just spamming heals.

Ok, long as you don't make me get started on idiots who tell my trick arrow users to heal, buff, and rez.

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I get that you think PGA is a great power - I don't, even combined with the -recharge and -speed in the other powers, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. As it stands I MIGHT take it on an MM - but only if you could convince me to play a /TA MM, which is unlikely as the set stands. I would never take it on my controllers and I don't play defenders because I can't stand them. Give me a decent amount of -damage, even as much as 20% although 25-30 would actually make it usefull in my mind, and I would consider it decent. 15% is nothing.

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In a vacuum PGA may not seem like much. However it's not in a vacuum. It's in a power set which offers other complementary powers. The power of trick arrow is not in any one given debuff or power, but in how it can quickly leverage a wide assortment of them.

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2)ok - I admit I missed the -recharge in ice arrow but its STILL only 10%. Having to stack 3 powers just to get 40% recharge debuff on a single target is kinda sucky. I don't understand your point about AV's - I am addressing general set use, not AV's. Any argument that includes the phrase "helps with AV's" is a null argument for me as AV fights are a VERY small part of the game. I am not asking for a lot - 20% or so in each of the two individual controls (ice/entangling) might actually be enough to make me happy.

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I bring up AVs because frankly, an EB/AV/GM is the only thing that's gonna survive long enough to really be a concern. This is true on my Illusion/TA controller, it's true on my TA/A defender, and it's equally true on my Thug/TA mastermind. Bosses could be trouble, but I can put them on ice easily enough, then destroy them.

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3) Targeted AOE vs location AOE - you can use EITHER in a running battle and a location AOE is ALWAYS going to be easier to place as you can be sure exactly where it is going to end up - I can't count the number of times I have dropped glue arrow on a mob I thought was closest to me, in order to put the glue patch between myself and the enemies and had all the OTHER mobs run up to me before the patch went down while the mob I targeted stays in the back and stands still. If you think a targeted AOE is easier to use than a location AOE you and I have different definitions of easy.

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Try this exercise. Set up your binds and macros so that you use the numpad for ordering your henchmen and using personal attacks. Next set up so you use QWEASD for movement, and the keypad 1 through 0 for secondary powers. Put the mousepad on the right side of the keyboard as well. Now get in a heated firefight. Then tell me how quickly you can fire off a location based power vs a targeted aoe. And don't forget that in the middle of combat your character may end up spinning while your trying to place the targeted aoe.

Now try it again as your doing a running battle because your trying to kite due to that huge rikti sword of doom. Or because that EB is trying to rip your head off.

TA already has 2 location AOEs. PGA and Glue Arrow as I hear use to be location based too. Devs changed them to targeted aoe because the set had too many location drops and thus had less mid battle utility.

Don't know bout you, but I can leverage a targeted aoe on a chaotic battle field much faster then a location drop aoe.

EDIT Oh and almost didn't notice this one.

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PGA: not sure why you call a 50% chance reliable - I guess there where earlier bugs that made it even worse than that and NOW you think it is reliable. I consider anything but 100% chance (well, 95% once you factor in capped accuracy) to be unreliable.

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Because regardless of the enemy's level it WILL sleep half the group at least. No to-hit check either, it just hits them and half or more fall asleep. That's pretty dang reliable. Compared to the cone sleep in plant domination for instance, I get this effect with no acc slotting... yet the cone sleep in plant dom I noticed kept missing most of the groups... usually it would miss the entire group despite slotting acc.

As for how I chain hold bosses? Hmm, let's look at my usual pre-set slotting for ice arrow.

1 acc, 3 hold, 2 recharge

So I get my acc to about 95% *higher if I'm hitting with acid arrow), my hold lasts almost twice as long, and recharges faster. Amazing isn't it. And if I want something held *now*? Well I'll be getting an aoe hold soon, and shortly after that another single target hold.

Do you claim the hold in /poison is useless too?

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Flash Arrow - only usefull if you are fighting AV's. Folks love to trot this out as if this where a huge part of the game - it isn't.

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If all you see Flash Arrow as is a to-hit debuff, your missing out on the majority of it's utility. While the debuff does have a good nitch, it's real power comes from the ability to prevent 2 close spawns from agroing while you fight a 3rd one almost right next to them.

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Poison gas arrow - totally skippable, a 15% damage debuff along with an unreliable sleep is almost useless without something to complement it.

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If all you had available was the damage debuff it would suck for damage mitigation, but wait! There's more! The sleep isn't 'unreliable' anymore. They fixed the problems with it. You fire PGA off first, and half the enemy group just got put to sleep, possibly more. Useless you say? And what about the alpha strike you just negated?

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Two single target controls (ice+entangling arrow): These are nice powers but with the low duration and high end cost that MM's pay and the fact that they generally have nothing to stack with them, so they are useless on anything higher than an LT, makes them questionable for an MM.

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Wha?! They last more then long enough. My thug/ta has managed to chain hold bosses with just ice arrow. With just a single ACC in entangle I've already stacked it enough to immobilize a couple AV's What do you mean low duration makes them of questionable value?

As for stacking with other powers you get... Patron pools give a mastermind another imobilize (or two) and a hold that can stack with them well. Plus don't forget EMP Arrow, an aoe hold. Interestingly enough, I don't see too many control sets that have more holds then a single target and an aoe hold Maybe a sleep (unreliable due to to-hit check)... But you said having a sleep power which is auto hit and is always going to affect half the enemies at least is unreliable.

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Glue Arrow - Only really good defensive power in the set, however it is hard to place because it is a targetting AOE rather than a location AOE, does almost no recharge debuff (20% again, isn't much) and frequently won't last through a fight.

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Three recharge SO's and this recharges exactly as fast as it wears off. Look, no more complaint about it not lasting through a fight. Slot some slows in it too and the recharge debuff is stronger. Happy times. The same is true of PGA and most of the other debuffs too.

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1) Poison gas arrow is a joke - either make it a reliable sleep power or give it more damage debuff. Defenders are the only ones who get a decent amount of damage debuff and even then I am not sure I would ever take this power as a defender.
2) Add some recharge reduction to entangling arrow - 10% isn't noticeable, even when stacked with glue arrows 20%. I think it would be better to increase it here rather than in glue arrow so that it doesn't get overpowering - this way to get a lot of -recharge you would have to put down glue arrow then entangle each mob individually.
3) Make glue arrow a location AE so you can set up glue 'traps' with it OR give it more range so you don't have to close to aggro distance to fire it off. This applies to ALL version of the set and is my pet peeve with the power.

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I'll try adressing each of these in turn.

1.) Skipping PGA is not that good of a choice no matter what AT in my opinion. The damage debuff on it's own isn't enough, but when combined with -recharge and -speed it's potent. And the sleep will always go off half the time. I've seen it sleep 5 of 10 mobs six levels higher then me. Gave me enough of an advantage to get away. Sure the sleep didn't last long, but it did hit.

2.) Let's assume that AV fight where you can't hold or immobilize the enemy. What do you see TA bringing to the fight? I see three -recharge powers for one thing. You forgot about Ice Arrow. Even if it doesn't hold something, it still debuffs recharge. And they had to reduce TA's recharge debuffage. I can still (fondly) recall stacking enough -rech with just glue arrow to cause enemies to be completely unable to do anything.

3.) Again, this would be a bad change. Since it's a targeted aoe you can use it mid battle. Targeted locations, not so much in a running battle.

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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is. The "comparing apples to oranges" metaphor has always been fallacious and obtuse. The implication is that you can only compare things that are the same; even though apples and oranges are both fruits, both have seeds, both have skins, I still don't have a basis for a valid comparison. By that logic, I can't even compare one apple to another apple unless they're identical, because differences invalidate comparisons.

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How about I phrase this a little differently then. The OP's post to me read's like this.

"Dark debuffs to-hit by a large marine. TA doesn't, and it's suppose to be a debuff only set. So I'll make assumptions about Trick Arrow's animation speeds, cast times, and disregard everything the set does except it's to-hit debuff because I don't think they make as much of a difference. I'm right, I know I'm right, so all you tell me by how much I'm right."

That is what the OP came across to me as. So, comparing apples to oranges isn't a good metaphor for you? How about this one: He's comparing a bicycle. to an automobile. Both will get you to your destination. Both can do so very well, assuming you know what your doing. Both will handle far differently. Is it fair to compare a bike's capabilities to a automobile? No.

Sure the car will shelter you from the elements and travel faster, but the bike can go more places and cover more varied terrain. This allows the bike more options, and potentially speeds up transit too. If I'm riding a bike I may be able to head up onto the sidewalk and ignore a stoplight the car had to stop for. I'm also not polluting the environment. Both are equally valid choices for transport.

Taking this new analogy, TA would be the bike. Sometimes it's slower, but it can handle a much wider range of situations due to having the tools to handle any given situation. When you have a full toolbox, you see every problem with a different solution.

Dark Miasma though, it's really got to-hit debuffs and more to-hit debuffs. Even the majority of it's soft control is mainly for to-hit debuffing. When all you have is a hammer (to-hit debuffing) you see every problem as a nail.

Don't get me wrong, I love dark miasma. I just also realize it's not a tool for every situation. Even radiation control has things it doesn't do as well as trick arrow. Like what you ask? Like keeping the majority of debuffs active on your average PUG.

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uhhhh...

That's actually a waste of enhancement slotting, dude....

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Tell me about it. I clocked my average final to-hit checks at about95% against +3's before using a single SO. I was tracking my henchmen's statistics too, and my genin were having 95% tohit checks against foes +2 to me.

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Ultimately, it's the bubbles, man. I gotta find a couple of spare slots to get END reducers in them. Oddly, I have a FF defender that has no END issues even with bubbling an eight-stacked team. Anyone know if the END cost is the same for both AT's?

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Yes, and no. For one thing, a defender usually isn't buffing six pets and seven team mates. For another, defenders get endurance discounts based on party health

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But it's not for a noob IMO.

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Exactly. A noob refuses to learn, a newbie will learn though. The OP specifically asked for one that's good for learning the AT with. And the best way to learn a class is to be challenged and forced to learn.

Your first was a merc/poison. And you kept going because you refused to admit defeat. Now, in hind sight are you glad you started with a challenging combo? Or do you think you'd have learned as much about playing a mastermind if you'd gone with a easy combo which barely requires effort such as bots/force field? /poison is a great secondary to learn masterminds with because it forces you to learn what your doing. It's a case of learn or die frequently.

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Beyond being a non-resistable aoe debuff to hit, which puts it above dark. Flash Arrow costs less time and endurance over time to keep that debuff up and you can apply it to several groups at once, further mitigating damage overall for yourself or the team. Dark debuffs also don't allow you to avoid combat. It has another End draining toggle for that.

TA has more debuff options. All of the abilities animate quickly. There are no toggles to eat end and most TA players don't even need stamina. I take it on my Bots/TA so that I can run leadership toggles. Try running all of your dark buffs and debuffs without stamina. It doesn't even have the variety and potential for debuffing and control, but has healing and buffing. This would be balanced but dark has to pay a massive end cost for it's benefits.

So I'm confused. Why isn't your arguement "Fix dark, TA gimps it in every way".

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My thug/ta took stamina mostly because I know an active secondary like TA or Poison can eat into your end during long battles. Especially if spamming things like entangling arrow and ice arrow. And for EB/AV/GM battles I put entangle on auto to stack it enough to (hopefully) immobilize.

No clue, but recharge buffs no longer affect henchmen.

Hope our advice helps out. But yea, DR is a great power. It's also a huge end hog so demands 3 endurance reductions. With a 73% end cost mod from slotting it's still just a hair under 20 points of endurance. Still, the power can safely be saved usually for when your health gets low.

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I've got some questions about slotting the mid range pets. For all of these, assume that sets don't exist.

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I'll answer the ones I can.

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For Ninjas, is there any secondary effect worth slotting?

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Jounin, well you could slot for slow, but that's not really that useful. Honestly, I personally think these guys really only need damage and accuracy.

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For Thugs, is Maneuvers worth a slot or two?

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Slot thug enforcers 1 acc/3 dam/2 def buff and you'll never regret it.

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For Bots, is it better to ignore the damage aspect in favor of the +def and heal?

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This from what I gather is a personal choice issue. Slotting them for damage over defense or heal means they help you kill things faster. Slotting more for defense keeps your other bots up longer. As such either 1 acc/3 dam/2 def or 1 acc/2 dam/3 def could easily work.

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Does and End reducer affect the pet's end use, the cost to summon, or both? Are any needed in any pets?

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Unless this was changed slotting end redux into a pet summon power does NOT lower the summoning cost. Rather it's like having each pet summoned by that power slotted with an enudurance reduction enhancement. As for weather any pets need it? That depends on the pet. Oni need it after level 32 due to having a ton of spammable attacks. Other, not so sure about.

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*I read somewhere that pets won't heal until there has been enough damage to use the whole heal. By that I mean, if the heal will do 100 points, they won't use it on a target that is only down 95. For this reason, it was suggested not to enhance the heals, since that would make the healing pet wait longer before using it. Is that Correct?

Thanks

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Not a problem. As for this last rumor, I have no idea. Ninja and thugs don't have heals. Nor have I gotten my necro/dark high enough to get pet owned healing powers. Gave up on bots rather early too cause watching them slooooooowly fire at the enemy was boring.

It was changed to an aoe, but still targets one pet. All pets get the buff now though, instead of doing one at a time.

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My highest MM is a bots/ff and I can steamroll anything.
Anything.

However, yes boredom can be a factor as you really become kinda extraneous after around level 30 or so. Mostly you're there to bubble pets and toss an occasional heal other around, but the rest of the time you can read or do emotes or post on the forums :-)

My second highest is a Necro/Storm which is much busier and more challenging but I find suits me perfectly :-)

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That's why if I ever get around to rerolling my original thug MM test server char I'll take the personal attacks. The char was a thug/ff. Intensely fun, but /ff didn't give me much to do beyond buffing pets once every few minutes.

Come to think of it, FF is the one defender primary I could never really enjoy.

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Dwarf mire does only last 10seconds but it is nice. Generally it's just like you stated: tp in, mire, shift to human, mire, shift to nova while taking a hop backwards and destroy all. You can go just human/nova but dwarf's higher resists will soak up the alpha that may kill you in human form.

I do like dwarf though for the heal, extra resistance and of course mire. I'd say stick it out for a bit till you can get Eclipse then you can decide whether or not you want to drop dwarf. When you get Eclipse you can tp into the group, hit eclipse then the aformentioned combo.

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I'd also like to point out that the dwarf heal IS an attack. It's a clone of the dark melee power... Which I personally like slotting 1 acc/3 dam/2 heal. With the dwarf version I slot it 1 acc/3 heal but that's cause my dwarf form is my "oh crud I'd better turtle up" power... and in such cases there may not be a handy corpse or six to heal off of.

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Don't think of Howling Twilight as a rez, think of it as an AoE debuff that happens to raise defeated teammates.

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I think of it as an aoe mag 1 stun that happens to rez team mates... and use it as such. In fact, it's frequently down when people die cause I'll have just used it in combat. But then people don't die often when I'm playing a dark miasma char.

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....Remind me nevar to forum pvpeee with luminara!!!!

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Heh, if I could figure out how to record a vid of me playing... I'd boot up my thug/ta (or maybe my TA/A defender) and demonstrate how effective TA can be without healing... And how much of an impact the -recovery has on a fight.

In fact, if I do use EMP arrow, the battle usually is over before the 15 second debuff ends. Come to think of it, my defender at level 35 tends to only need 5 powers, sometimes 6.

Those powers in importance and usage are
Glue Arrow or EMP arrow
acid arrow
disruption arrow
oil slick arrow
magic charm (the origin specific attack) OR blazing arrow

Things which ignore slow may need to be immobilized in the resulting fire.

That will drop 16 minions, and almost kill any LT that's even level or +1. An LT may require an aimed shot or two. Bosses might require a couple more attacks beyond that.

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I'm not as familiar with Ninja but I wouldnt waste a third slot on Train Ninjas, never put more than 2 end redux(I only use one). Lastly your Oni has end redux, not really needed, and both your oni and jounin aren't really slotted for damage, but someone with more knowledge on slotting Ninjas would be able to help you more there.

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Not true. WHile the genin and jounin don't need end redux slotting, the oni does need a single endurance redux enhancement. After the level 32 upgrade is applied the oni WILL run out of endurance in a single fight without it. With a single end redux he has infinite endurance though.

Some thoughts on your build.

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Level 1: Call Genin -- Acc(A), Acc(3), Dmg(3), Dmg(5), EndRdx(5), EndRdx(7)

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I find that 1 Accuracy and 3 damage is all you really need in this one. Genin only ever have endurance issues if they get hit with end drain. And as I recall slotting end redux doesn't reduce the cost of the summon, but the costs of their powers. If you do six slot it, do so for set bonuses.

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Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- Immob(A), Immob(7)

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A single acc in this, and call it good. Out of the box the duration to recharge ratio is good enough to stack it with ease. I've immobilized AV's with it due to stacking. And that's without slotting for immobilize.

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Level 2: Aimed Shot -- EndRdx(A), Acc(9), Dmg(9), RechRdx(11), RechRdx(11), RechRdx(13)

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If you take this one, I'd suggest 1 ACC, 3 damage, maybe 1 end redux. That's assuming no sets mind you. Recharge is already pretty fast. 3 recharge redux is probably not just overkill... but wasted enhancements.

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Level 4: Glue Arrow -- EndRdx(A), Slow(13)

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Here is where I would say six slot it. Go for 3 recharge and 3 slow. End redux isn't really needed since your only firing this only once every 30 seconds. Slot it up asap.

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Level 6: Train Ninjas -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(15), EndRdx(15)

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I use to say one slot end redux in this one. Now I'd say put 2 in there and call it good. You can drop the 3rd end redux slot. Likely better places for that enhancement slot.

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Level 8: Hover -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(17)

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Your going for flight right? The def buff isn't very big. Since you don't get much return for the def buff enhancements I'd say slot these as flight speeds instead.

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Level 10: Swift -- Run(A)

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I'd suggest switching this to flight speed as well. This wont give much of a boost, but it'll make using hover in missions more tolerable.

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Level 12: Call Jounin -- ToHitDeb(A), ToHitDeb(17), DefDeb(19), DefDeb(19), Acc(21)

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GAH! There's a huge problem with this slotting. Know what it is? Your hardest hitters are not slotted for damage. Drop the to-hit debuffs and def debuffs and put some damage enhancements in there! You don't have these guys for their minor debuffs. You have them for their katana attacks.

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Level 14: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(21)

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Looks good so far

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Level 16: Maneuvers -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(23), DefBuff(23)
Level 18: Assault -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(25)
Level 20: Tactics -- ToHit(A), ToHit(25), EndRdx(27)

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Not sure about these. Sure maneuvers will help keep the ninja alive, but the other two wont really help as much as your hoping IMO. Tactics could be useful for pvp though. Drop one of the end redux from assault though.

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Level 22: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(27), EndMod(29)

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Again, looks good.

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Level 24: Acid Arrow -- DefDeb(A), EndRdx(29)

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Drop the end redux in favor of an accuracy. This has a to hit check after all. Come to think of it, this should be well slotted by now.

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Level 26: Oni -- Dmg(A), EndRdx(31), EndRdx(31), Acc(31)

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Again, too much end redux slotting. At this point you should have 3 damage enhancements in him most likely. My final slotting was 1 acc, 3 damage, 1 end redux, and 1 hold I believe. He only needs 1 end redux to prevent running out of endurance post 32.

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Level 28: Fly -- Empty(A)

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May as well drop a flight speed into this. Your only likely to run it while traveling from point A to point B.

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Level 30: Aid Other -- Empty(A)

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For pete's sake. If your gonna have aid other, drop a healing enhancement in it.

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Level 32: Kuji In Zen -- EndRdx(A)

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Good choice for initial slot. May want to put 2 more end redux in there overall.

Oh yes, and another thought... May want to consider dropping the leadership pool in favor of more from your secondary.

Flash arrow is an unresistable auto hit to-hit debuff. Slotted with 3 to-hit debuffs it's about 5% I think. I personally would take this over Aimed Shot.

Poison Gas arrow debuffs the enemy's damage as well as has a good chance to put enemies to sleep, thus negating the alpha strike. Combine this with flash arrow and you come out a bit ahead from losing maneuvers IMO.

Disruption arrow debuffs resistance in a sizable area. This is potentially as useful or more useful then assault.

Ice arrow will hold an enemy, very useful for taking troublesome minions and LT's out of the fight. Far more useful in PvE then leadership. Especially solo. Would you rather your guys hit slightly more often (they should already be hitting 95% of the time) or would you rather that the enemy which loves setting burn patches is frozen in a block of ice and NOT setting up a burn patch?

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patron arcs are there to weed out the tofu blueside rerollers!

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And yet there's talk of removing the lockout on patron pools... thus allowing picking a different patron pool when respecing.

Some addictions are fun... Such as the severity of my altitus. I just had to spend one of my 4 free character slots on Guardian since I had 12 characters there and needed a 13th one for char storyline reasons.

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Somewhere mid-read in the OP this is all my brain was taking in:

I really like oranges, and since they're also fruit, I want to really, equally like apples. The thing is that apples simply aren't as good as oranges. I mean, look at the two. Oranges and apples both have skins, but orange peals are way thicker. They're both juicy, but oranges are way juicier. I can make a glass of juice with only a few oranges and little effort, but it takes a whole bunch of apples and a lot of processing to make a good glass of apple juice. They both have seeds, but apple seeds are in the core which you totally can't easily eat but you can eat the meat of the orange where the orange seeds are. They're supposed to be roughly equal fruits but oranges are clearly superior in every way. And let's not even get into the fact that some apples are green while others are red, but oranges are just orange. WTG God/Mother Nature/Natural Selection!

I love Dark. I have for a long time, long before most people seemed to even figure out what it could really do. I fondly remember the days of people asking WTH a Dark/ Defender even was. It's been a while since I personally played around seriously with TA at all (Devs, please give us Archery/TA Corruptors!!!), but I really do not recall ever having any complaints about it playing it or with team mates other than it still suffers from the same condition Dark used to suffer from. Most people just don't seem to get what TA is/does.

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Your telling me. I made my TA/A defender in issue 5 when even the devs admitted they'd accidentally gimped it. At the time I got booted from soo many teams while playing a TA defender due to lacking a heal. Most of the time the teams didn't even give me a chance. And yet when teams did I managed to amaze them with TA's capabilities even WITH the set being gimped at the time.

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What I was saying is that -def isn't as helpful as -res is. So being able to remove softcap helps yes, but being able to down a target faster is better. So if 1 res = 1 def why not just remove the def and give more res? Disruption does help but when it's recharge is merely 30 seconds shorter than tar patch and does half as much. Why not make disruption a pseudo pet considering it's "dropped" just like tar patch and increase it's -res 10%.

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Interesting fact, acid arrow is not just a defense debuff. It's also a resistance debuff. That means you DO deal more damage, and hit more often too.