Madam_Enigma

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I'm going to have to assume that you two can't read very well because you're reading stuff that isn't even remotely in my posts.

Apparently you're first off going off and claiming that I'm trying steer people away from defenders when no where at any point in time while on these boards have I ever done so. People however move to what is optimal and Corruptors are superior to Defenders in their current state

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Right there you have stated flat out that you believe corrupters will supplant defenders. A false claim. If this was a true fact, then no one would play defenders anyway. People keep 'proving' that controllers are superior to defenders because they now do roughly equal damage, use the buff sets at near the same capability, and get hard control. And yet, people play defenders. Gee, care to explain that?

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...and let's not toss [censored] around here, their playstyles are identical. They just reversed the primary and secondary and left defender damage numbers in the dirt and support sets completely inconsistent going from primary to secondary and back.

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Again, try again please. Corrupters are first and foremost intended to be damage dealers. And the ideal playstyle of them supports this. That's why they have a higher base damage, and get scourge. If your playing them identical to a defender, then your playing a very confused corrupter in my opinion. They are designed with the idea of maximizing personal offense, with team defense as a secondary priority.

Defenders are team oriented first and foremost. They are the best with buffs and debuffs out there, but not great in the damage department overall. A defender when played well attacks frequently true, but attacking takes secondary priority to team defense.

That is two diverging play styles.

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You also seem to think that your personal preference has any relevance on a topic about AT balance issues and that we would even care about whether you find support sets more "fun" than ranged damage sets. Fun is subjective, some people find mass murder fun, that certainly doesn't mean that mass murder is healthy for Society. Just like laws up hold order in society, numbers up hold order in game balancing. What's "Fun" has nothing to do with it.

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Nice one by the way. Equating someone pointing out that fun must be taken into account causes you to retaliate with "well, some people consider mass murder fun". Interesting argument. And I'll rebuttal it.

First off, bringing murder up as an argument does not help your cause. It hurts it rather. Second of all, that's why the co-op zones and missions of the last four years had been done. For developers to datamine for balance between heroes and villains teaming up. Do you honestly think that Going Rogue isn't going to have balance tweaks based on this info they've gathered? If so, I feel sorry for you.

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Anyone who has played both a defender and a corruptor to 50 knows that defender damage is completely out of whack and the support number advantage they supposed to have is utter garbage. You don't need to crunch numbers to know this, it's obvious from playing both ATs. Of course, you've admitted to having not actually played a corruptor to 50, so as I said before you really don't have a leg to stand on here.

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You keep playing the "You haven't played X archtype to 50" card. And I'm still not buying it. No, I haven't played a corrupter to 50 yet. I've been trying. And even at low levels I'm noticing a large difference in capabilities. I take two characters, one corrupter and one defender that are both the same level. They both have identical blast and debuff sets. And yet, the defender is both more fun and more survivable I find.

I just compared level one unslotted radiation infection for example. Here's what they are:

Defender stats for Radiation Infection
-31.25 tohit
-21.25 defense

Corrupter stats for Radiation Infection
-25 tohit
-25 defense

Doesn't seem like a big difference to you, right Turbo? And yet it is in actual game play. What is part of why I find defenders more fun then corrupters? The fact that they don't die frequently. As I'd previously mentioned, with no to-hit debuff slotting in radiation infection on a defender Atta was unable to kill me. In fact, once I stopped joining PUGs at level six my rad/rad defender practicably was immortal. Only reason that character got deleted at level 26 was because I had grown frustrated with teams back in issue four. My corrupter however still is dying at least six times per mission at least at level 12. Has been since level five. I get tired of dying constantly, and log out in favor of a more fun character. I'm slowly slogging through the levels because my rad/rad corrupter is part of an overall RP storyline me and a friend are doing in CoX. To me, it's not fun so I don't play it. Dying constantly isn't fun.

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Defenders aren't "fine as is", they need to be tuned to have better base damage and the support numbers need to be more consistent, no more of this bullcrap with over half of entire sets like Kinetics have identical numbers on defenders, controllers, and corruptors.

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And this here? That is a personal opinion. Why do defenders need better base damage? Because they can't solo content intended to be done teamed anymore? That's bull and you know it. Defenders do respectable damage. Maybe not as much as a blaster, but still respectable. And the reason they don't do more damage is because of the safety they can generate for them self and the team. Controllers legitimately did too low of damage pre-level 32. Defenders however? They don't suffer that. They can solo fine, and contribute to a team very well. There's a reason teams of defenders steamroll things. Defenders are force multipliers. Due to this, they don't need high base damage.

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It's funny, a couple years ago people like you were whining that once side switching was added defenders would supplant all corrupters. In fact, I think you were one of the biggest in favor of the claim. Now your saying that corrupters are going to supplant all defenders.

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Just because people were screaming about Global Cooling and a New Ice Age coming 20 years ago doesn't mean that they can't complain about Global Warming and a DOOOOOOMSDAY scenario now!

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I don't know, it stinks to me of Y2K syndrome. You remember that right? How back in 1999 people were sure civilization would end because of a potential glitch in computer clocks. Then Jan 1st 2000 came about and the world was still intact. "Oh wait, the new millennium doesn't start until 2001. That's when the world will end," they claimed. And look, the world's still here. There were claims that America would self destruct if there was ever a black president. And the fact of the matter is it's taking the first black president to fix the problems in the country right now.

Maybe all the yearly cries of doom and gloom have jaded me, but I don't see it. There's many indications something world changing will happen in 2012. What will it be? I don't know. It's interesting that the Mayan calendar ends on a very specific date and time. Considering how accurate it's been so far, this tells me something world changing will happen. Personally, I think it's going to be a radical change in society, but not doomsday.

interesting link

Similarly, people are crying DOOM over Going Rogue in regards to corrupters replacing defenders. I'd seen other claims that corrupters would completely replace blasters, and that dominators would replace controllers (and vice versa). I think it will do none of that. I think it'll be a restructuring of the hero and villain communities, ending in more diversity.

And another thing to mention, we don't know what the level requirement to go to the new zone will be. As such, if you wanted to roll all corrupters and play them hero side, it's possible you'd have to level them as a villain to (and this is throwing out a random number) level 30 for instance before gaining access to the zone required to switch sides.

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I think you fail to realize the number of Corruptor builds that can solo an AV

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I think YOU fail to realize HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOLOING ARCHVILLAINS. Seriously, I don't care who or what can solo an archvillain. I don't care about optimizing my build to solo them. I don't care about fighting an AV with anything less then a team.

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then you probably shouldn't bring up anecdotes about your defender soloing EBs and compare it to corruptors.

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Ok, let me try getting this strait. I mention that I solo elite bosses just fine on my defenders, and you assume that means I care about soloing archvillains? Please, that's bunk. Your trying to argue that everyone must love corrupters and stop playing defenders once going rogue comes out just because Corrupter!>Defender and it doesn't work that way. Both archtypes have a different playstyle. Both do their jobs fine. They don't step on each other's toes to the degree you'd like us to believe. I don't find the playstyle of corrupters fun. Deal with it.

It's funny, a couple years ago people like you were whining that once side switching was added defenders would supplant all corrupters. In fact, I think you were one of the biggest in favor of the claim. Now your saying that corrupters are going to supplant all defenders. So, make up your freaking mind. And once you make up your mind, stop trying to convice me that I don't know how much damage blasts can do at higher levels.

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Oh, and I'll also point out your inacurate statement and why it's inaccruate.

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It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.

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That is only true if your on a large team that's steamrolling things. In fact, I've actually tried going from level 1 to level 12 in five hours. It didn't happen with normal game play. Not for me at least.


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Everything goes better with patronizing, don't you find? Let me just skim over two misspellings of the same word in the same sentence, and point out that if all my times are doubled- 10 hours to level 12, 300 to level 50- you're still spending 3% of your time in the sub-12 game.

A Corruptor hits its stride later. Yes. You may not want to wait. We get that. But saying that you "have played" Corruptors implies you know how they perform through more than the first 3% of the game, don't you think? Imagine someone was making a pronouncement about how Tanks perform based only on the 1-12 game. How would you react? Really, now, how would you?

Enjoy. Your. Period. Separated. Sentences.

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Ok, I know it's hard for some people to grasp this very simple concept. Damage archtypes I've played to late game. In fact, I've got a mastermind and a scrapper who are level 50. I've got a level 32 warshade who's parked due to altitus. I also have a level 35 TA/A defender who's similarly parked while I level my crab. In fact, I've got almost 3 full servers of characters who are in the late twenties to mid thirties. Is that fully grasped? This should tell you something about me. I fully understand how effective a blast set can be in the mid to late game. My blasters are all fast approaching 30.

I don't play 'support' characters for the uber high damage. Is that understood yet? Because I've tried explaining it over and over. I play them because I find the support powers to be fun. With that in mind, why should I level a corrupter when I want a ranged damage dealer? I can level a blaster and get the blasts just as quickly, and do more damage to boot.

In the same vein, why should I level a corrupter to get the support powers when I can level a defender and get them faster, and have more fun doing so? Is that statement understandable to you? I'll quote myself and put the most important part in bold text.

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In the same vein, why should I level a corrupter to get the support powers when I can level a defender and get them faster, and have more fun doing so?

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Is that completely understood to you and Turbo now? I find defenders more fun then corrupters! I know, oh my god! Someone who can have fun without uber 'leet' "I can solo archvillains" characters. At level 12 I find a defender more fun then a corrupter, thus I end up playing the defender rather then the corrupter. What makes the defender more fun? Having more of the support powers that I find fun. Again, if I wanted to play a ranged damage dealer I'd just log into one of my blasters.

I have a few fun concept corrupters that I keep slogging away at to level. And yet, I tend to not play them because to me their not fun. It's the same reason I've yet to get a stalker past level 18. Stalkers to me are less fun then scrappers, thus I play a scrapper instead. Brutes also to me are less fun then scrappers or tankers. Thus while I got some brutes I love, I rarely play them. I've yet to get one of my brutes past level 10. To me, their just not fun.

You may have fun other ways. Don't assume my idea of fun matches yours though.

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I think you fail to realize the number of Corruptor builds that can solo an AV

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I think YOU fail to realize HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOLOING ARCHVILLAINS. Seriously, I don't care who or what can solo an archvillain. I don't care about optimizing my build to solo them. I don't care about fighting an AV with anything less then a team.

Oh yeah, hate Rularuu watchers. They can hit an eluding scrapper with over 100% defense.

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Bats/Tarps all the way, though my Thugs/Pain is a close second.

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When did we get bat summoning?

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Fire/TA

owait

darn

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You have those reversed :P

Oh, I do focus fire on it, but it's better to focus fire on an aoe happy mob that can't act then one which can still throw it's grenades or burn patches and kill half your pets at once.

I found Acro didn't really help prevent mez. It's only applicable to holds, and gets overwhelmed by any mobs trying to hold you anyway. At least that's my experience.

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Are you at the level where you face Longbow Flamethrowers with Ignite? or the Spec Ops with AoE? ( or pretty much any AoE crazy group) I find it really helps and you wont need to use Provoke or TP Foe for that.

Taking PG on my Mercs/Dark enabled me to completly ignore AoE mobs, which sometimes insta kill your pets if your not fast enough on the GOTO's. All I do is Shadowfall within range of the spawn and PG the Flamethrower, then let your pets deal with the other 3-5 normal mobs.

With enough slotting PG is perma hold and if you take the Patron hold with slotting, you can hold bosses.

P.S. Both mine are 6 slotted with Lockdowns, I can consistently hold EB's.

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Yeah, pralytic poison was my main's solution to AoE happy mobs. Didn't help against scrapyarders though.

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That's why the devs made Kins. Heaven forbid people be able to be able to manage their blue bars or the speed of their characters.

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I know... And heaven forbid kins accept that some people actually have recharge, speed, and endurance under control Apparently there's at least a sizable forum population of kins that think every buff is needed 24/7 even if it does more harm then good. A mindset I don't understand.

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Would this then mean that elude would add no defense bonus?

I think elude has been bringing me above this level.

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Once you hit the 45% cap it doesn't matter how much defense you have over that amount the chance to hit still remains the same. Running Elude if you are already capped just means that you have a larger cushion in the event you fight enemies that debuff your defense and drop you under 45%

If you are soft capped without Elude you are basically running around as though you have perma Elude minus the +spd and +recov.

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Would this then mean that elude would add no defense bonus?

I think elude has been bringing me above this level.

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i use elude for the endurance regen and it helps to be above 45% defense against purple mobs.

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It doesn't really matter if they are purple or not because defense works the same for anything with in 5 levels.

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And if it's above 5 levels, well you shouldn't be fighting it since your barely hurting it.

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Way up top, but if you think that Stone/Ice tanks have craptastic damage, you need to play tanks more (as long as we're accusing one another of not playing X enough ). Ice Melee has fantastic AoE damage now (just don't stay in Granite all day!). No, it's not going to outdamage a Fire blaster.

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As I understand it, ice melee is the lowest damage tanker secondary. And most every single earth armor tanker I see... runs around in Granite all the time once they have it.

Ok Fulmens, let me try explaining this one more time. I'll use small words so everyone can understand me this time.

I. Enjoy. The. Buff. Sets. More. Then. The. Blasts.

Is that clear now? Ok, what does that mean? It means that to me the debuffs are the more important and fun powers. Oh, and I'll also point out your inacurate statement and why it's inaccruate.

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It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.

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That is only true if your on a large team that's steamrolling things. In fact, I've actually tried going from level 1 to level 12 in five hours. It didn't happen with normal game play. Not for me at least.

Oh, and another thing that makes corrupters for me less fun then defenders. By level 12 my old rad/rad defender felt unstoppable. Heck, when I tried soloing Atta I couldn't beat him. However after one hour he'd still not come close to taking me out either.

My rad/rad corrupter? Anything and everything is able to laugh at the to-hit debuff and smack me around. They've been able to since level 5. I spend more time running back to the mission then actually doing the mission most times.

And for all those wanting pets like insects and such... Remember that the devs stated a while back mastermind henchmen have to be humanoid. That means two arms, two legs, one head, walk upright.

Looking at the build in mids... Eyeah... I can see endurance being a huge problem in medium to long fights. End drain is coming out to be .98/1.72% endurance per second. In order to alleviate the endurance issues, the fighting pool toggles would have to be shut off, thus negating the melee/aoe defense and 20 points of smash/lethal resistance.

How well does such a build hold up during EB fights then?

EDIT

Was working looking over the build again, and thought I might also look at an alternitive. Since my second build is strait wolf spider, here's what I came up with. It's probably not as good as it could be, but then I'm not an expert at twinking with IO's.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Crab Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Crab Spider Training
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Single Shot -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 1: Wolf Spider Armor -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(5), ResDam-I(5)
Level 2: Burst -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(7), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), DefBuff-I(9), DefBuff-I(9)
Level 6: Wide Area Web Grenade -- TotHntr-Dam%(A), Immob-I(11), Immob-I(11)
Level 8: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(13), Acc-I(13)
Level 10: Heavy Burst -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(15), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(37), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(37)
Level 12: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(17), EndRdx-I(17), EndRdx-I(19)
Level 14: Venom Grenade -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(21), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(40), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(43)
Level 16: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 18: Frag Grenade -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(23), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(43), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(45)
Level 20: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 22: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), RgnTis-Regen+(23), Heal-I(25)
Level 24: Tactical Training: Leadership -- ToHit-I(A), ToHit-I(25), EndRdx-I(27), EndRdx-I(27)
Level 26: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(29), EndMod-I(29)
Level 28: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), EndRdx-I(31), EndRdx-I(31)
Level 32: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), EndRdx-I(36), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Call Reinforcements -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(39), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(39), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), BldM'dt-Acc(40), BldM'dt-Dmg(40)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- TotHntr-Dam%(A), Immob-I(42), Immob-I(42)
Level 44: Disruptor Blast -- Ragnrk-Knock%(A), Dmg-I(46), Dmg-I(46)
Level 47: Summon Blaster -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Mace Blast -- Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(50), Dmg-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A), Empty(45), Empty(45)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
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[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]6.56% Defense(Fire)[*]6.56% Defense(Cold)[*]9.38% Defense(Energy)[*]9.38% Defense(Negative)[*]11.3% Defense(Ranged)[*]10.3% Defense(AoE)[*]14% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]8% FlySpeed[*]8% JumpHeight[*]8% JumpSpeed[*]MezResist(Sleep) 4.95%[*]MezResist(Stun) 1.65%[*]5.5% (0.1 End/sec) Recovery[*]5.63% Resistance(Energy)[*]5.63% Resistance(Toxic)[*]8% RunSpeed[*]3% XPDebtProtection[/list]------------
[u]Set Bonuses:[u]
[u]Thunderstrike[u]
(Single Shot)<ul type="square">[*] 2% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[*] 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 4% RunSpeed, 4% FlySpeed, 4% JumpSpeed, 4% JumpHeight[*] 2.5% Defense(Ranged), 1.25% Defense(Energy), 1.25% Defense(Negative)[/list][u]Thunderstrike[u]
(Burst)<ul type="square">[*] 2% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[*] 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 4% RunSpeed, 4% FlySpeed, 4% JumpSpeed, 4% JumpHeight[*] 2.5% Defense(Ranged), 1.25% Defense(Energy), 1.25% Defense(Negative)[/list][u]Detonation[u]
(Heavy Burst)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%[*] 1.88% Resistance(Energy)[*] 1% XPDebtProtection[*] 1.88% Defense(AoE), 0.94% Defense(Fire), 0.94% Defense(Cold)[*] 1.88% Resistance(Toxic)[/list][u]Detonation[u]
(Venom Grenade)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%[*] 1.88% Resistance(Energy)[*] 1% XPDebtProtection[*] 1.88% Defense(AoE), 0.94% Defense(Fire), 0.94% Defense(Cold)[*] 1.88% Resistance(Toxic)[/list][u]Detonation[u]
(Frag Grenade)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%[*] 1.88% Resistance(Energy)[*] 1% XPDebtProtection[*] 1.88% Defense(AoE), 0.94% Defense(Fire), 0.94% Defense(Cold)[*] 1.88% Resistance(Toxic)[/list][u]Blood Mandate[u]
(Call Reinforcements)<ul type="square">[*] 1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[*] 1.88% Defense(Fire,Cold), 0.94% Defense(AoE)[*] MezResist(Stun) 1.65%[*] 3.75% Defense(AoE), 1.88% Defense(Fire), 1.88% Defense(Cold)[*] 3.75% Defense(Ranged), 1.88% Defense(Energy), 1.88% Defense(Negative)[/list]

Keep in mind any pool powers outside of clicks with a set duration have no effect on the forms. Not even stamina.

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Yeah I'm hoping the devs are actually making a new and different powerset to play. Not one that barely just involves wielding two smaller fire arms simultaneously instead of a one bigger one.

But I have my hopes up, considering how long the "akimbo pistols" spent time "on paper".

I was actually thinking of making DP/Dark corruptor, bit like the comic and 360 game The Darkness, but with going rogue I have a feeling my new villain will be a blaster.

I always liked the idea of blaster, the problem was just that they were on the wrong side.

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Well, I'd imagine it would include the 3 attacks masterminds get with thugs, and a full auto clone too since the enforcers get burst and full auto as dual wielders.

Thug/ta masterminds are also aoe beasts. Once oil slick is slotted up that combo does some seriously nasty damage. Oil slick alone once triple damage slotted is capable of melting +1 minions if you drop disruption arrow too. And if it's stacked with the arsonist's burn patch (better be immobilizing the enemy), well I've seen it melt a +2 rikti boss or ten.

But yeah, fire/kin would do some seriously high damage.

A huntsman I imagine could also be done as pure wolf spider, taking the mace mastery epic pool.

I've gotten aggro when the tanker I put it on runs in first unless he's also running some sort of taunt aura. And I'll be holding off doing anything since I'm the only one without good resistances.

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Higher levels do not get resistance unless they are AVs, then?

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Resistance? No, but your powers will be less effective to begin with. That's partly why you do less damage fighting a +2 enemy then you would fighting a +0 enemy.

And brutes who insist on maxing their fury bar constantly... Well their at the damage cap already.

Actually, I think it does. All debuffs aside from -perception cause aggro. I believe it generates aggro on the person who generated the power.