Madam_Enigma

As I gather it, it checks once for each enemy hit for aoe damage powers. I could be wrong though..

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Define too fast.

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Hmmmm.....When the AE expansion was first introduced I didn't pay much attention too it frankly. Then I got a blind invite on one of my master minds at level 12. I figured what the heck try it out and see what its like. Keep in mind I had essentially ignored it until this point so I didn't realize the primary point to AE was for farming. We entered the mission and I proceeded to go from level 12 to 18 in under ten minutes. I'm not sure of a decent definition of "too fast" but a level every 1.5 minutes on average certainly felt that way to me. I actually felt like I had cheated or something.

Since the efforts of the devs to "reform" it I have seen no significant changes to this. The broadcasts in Atlas may be a little less blatant but the direct tells I have, rarely, gotten are very clear about it.(The reason they are rare is because I have a no farming comment in my search entry.)

I tried it out just this evening again after getting an invite. Thought maybe it will work out ok. Fat chance. This time it was a very thinly veiled farm. Basically a remake of the old Drek farm. My search comment is now "No Farming, Power Leveling, or AE".

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Not all AE arcs are PL farms. I have one called Rise of the Poisoned Fist, posted with my in game global of @Poison Bloom. It's story centric and focuses on a plot being done by my main villain.

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Hey Joe...

Just wanted to say that as far as I understand, for Black Dwarf Mire to be able to allow To-Hit-Debuff IO sets, it would actually have to emulate all the other powers that allow To-Hit-Debuff IO sets, meaning that it'd have to actually debuff the To-Hit property of enemies. This of course would sharply contrast with the rest of the debuffing aspects of Warshades, not to mention making Black Dwarf a better tank-form than it already is and ought to be.

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The bolded part is true, and would even make sense if the OP had requested ToHit [u]De[u]buff sets.

Since they requested ToHit Buff sets, and the power provides +ToHit, it seems to be a rather irrelevant point.

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I imagine the devs thought getting the build up proc in black dwarf mire would be a bit much. I mean, a chance to proc on up to 10 enemies at once, when you've already likely just capped effective ACC to begin with, as well as capped damage to boot?

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It is a modified clone of Soul Drain, not follow-up.

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I hear it described as a follow-up clone alot, lately. I think that's largely because when Castle initially made the changes, someone said it had been given the "follow-up treatment" and it seemed to catch on.

So I guess that makes Black Dwarf Mire the love child of Follow-Up and Soul Drain?

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That sounds... disturbing. And I think the 'followup treatment' comments are due to the damage being boosted.

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Define too fast. For one of my 50s, I leveled off of just TFs and teaming with good players in, according to the game, 40 hours of played time, give or take goofing around time. Before the last batch of XP smoothing. Before AE. Before i9. I've read one person say "56 hours is too fast imho" among others that say 200 hours is too fast.

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Define 'too fast'? Ok, then try this definition: If your contacts all refuse to talk to you because you've out leveled them you quite possibly leveled too fast IMO. And I do find that some of my characters DO level too fast. I keep getting a brand new contact, and they are already out leveled. Relying on flashback to do arcs because you leveled past all the port oaks contacts while still running your missions in mercy for example is quite possibly leveling too fast. It was even more true before flashback got added.

About 'bad players promoting bad players', farming/PLing encourages the bad players because they don't have to do anything to level.

First of all Turbo, you don't have to get that complicated to find the base values. Seriously. Just go into character creation and look at the real numbers there for powers. It will tell you the base damage for any given level with a power. I used electric blast as an example, and compared level 50 damage. Just for kicks since I already compared damage between that set for defenders and corrupters, I'm going to check it's damage potential related to blasters, corrupters, and defenders.

Corrupter's Thunderous Blast
41.71 smashing damage on target
83.42 energy damage on target
75.00%% chance for 41.71 energy damage on target
50.00%% chance for 41.71 energy damage on target
41.71 energy damage on target 2.5% chance per every
percentage point targets health is below 50%

So a potential max damage upon use of 250.26 damage

Defender Thunderous Blast
36.15 smashing damage on target
72.29 energy damage on target
75.00%% chance for 36.15 energy damage on target
50.00%% chance for 36.15 energy damage on target

Maximum possible damage of 180.74

Blaster thunderous blast
62.56 smashing damage on target
125.12 energy damage on target
75.00%% chance for 62.56 energy damage on target
50.00%% chance for 62.56 energy damage on target

maximum potential damage is 312.8

Keep in mind that this is without buffs, debuffs, or slotting. With rad emmision (which you admit is balanced across the AT's) the numbers would look like this for potential max damage without outside buffs/debuffs coming into play:

Corrupter 360.3744 (this assumes the enemy has no resistance to smashing or energy so gets the full 20% resistance debuff, and assumes AM is applied for the +20% damage buff
Defender 293.7025 (this is assuming the enemy has no resistance to smashing or energy damage so the full 30% resistance debuff applies, and also assuming AM for the +25% damage)
Blaster 312.8

I find this interesting. This implies that a defender can potentially do nearly blaster levels of damage, so the claims that they don't do enough damage are proven bunk. It also shows that corrupters, a 'high damage' archetype actually can do that high damage. In fact, they can do better damage then blasters. Which is even more interesting considering they are designed to be a damage dealer, yet people assume their just reversed primary/secondary defenders. This shows a fundamental design difference. It also shows why devs consider defenders the most balanced archetype.

In regards to the OP, defender damage only 'sucks' if you don't slot for damage.

Edit to expand:

Turbo, I do see where you are trying to come from, but I think your wrong.

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My teams refuse to take Empathy unless we know the player well enough to trust them with the set.

After reading the various "AE WROO-END COH" threads, I think I'm just going to start using the term "healer" for everything because of the fact it enrages the farming Puritans. The Puritans have actually managed to edge out indignant "heal0rz" as the top of the pile for annoying players.

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Ok, let me explain point by point why I dislike farming and powerleveling.

<ul type="square">[*]It's boring [*]it promotes people not learning how to play their character[*]it causes people to level too fast, thus missing all the content in the game [*]It promotes poor teaming skills, after all why learn to work with the team when one or two team members do all the work so you can level quickly?[/list]

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Well , the widow seems squishier of the two but I haven't put in a ton of IO sets in either toon. Guess I'll copy to test and experiment around a bit. I've had the widow since just after i12 and has all the + hp accolades, I think her base is @ 1312 vs the bane having just over 1500 with just invader and high pain threshold. My question was about the "Scaling resists" that everyone says widows have, where does it list the values? I'm trying to determine if it even will make that much of a difference considering how low a widow's base hit point are.

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Hmm, sounds like someone has been in Architect because had you actually leveled them up you could easily answer thsi question

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So because I have a few lvl 50 toons and a question about scaling resists I must have PLed them? Rather than post a useless assumption why don't you be productive and attempt to A) help the poster out or B) simply just not post at all

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Widows also get mind link, which on it's own is a huge defense buff. Not perma out of the box, but it's capable of soft capping you as I recall fairly easily.

no, they have 75% to-hit same as you.

Uhm, gotta log in to double check, but slotting to-hit in enforcers as I recall isn't really worth it. Slotting 2 defense though is. I think both enforcers combined give 5% to-hit buff to the henchmen.

Yeah, unslotted each enforcer gives 2.5% to-hit. That gives 80% to-hit. Supremacy then adds another 10% to-hit bringing it up to 90%. With a level 30 common IO (34% accuacy buff) your final to-hit with henchmen is 120%, bounded to 95%. A single ACC enhancement is more then enough. Slotting a to-hit buff into enforcers raises their +tohit from 2.5 to 3. Slotting 2 raises it to 3.5. Not really worth it in the long run since they should already be running around with 90% tohit most times.

Edit, also, with a single acc slotting and the plethora of def debuffs thugs do pets will be hitting 95% of the time even vs +2's. I know cause I'm fighting them now

Unless I'm misunderstanding the intent of corrupters vs defenders, corrupters in CoV are suppose to fill similar roles to blasters. The buff set secondary is to help them do so. Thus why corrupters are a 'high' damage archetype. As a fight wears on corrupters start doing double damage. They will always out damage defenders by a large margine overall, and that is intended.

It's even worse when your a TA/A defender and already explained you don't heal, but do debuff enemies up the wazoo and deal really good damage... Then the team's reaction to you joining is "YAY! A HEALER! WE ARE GODS NOW!"

Especially when you then learn the entire team wiped on the first group, which is +3 to you... Then they boot you after you defeat the entire enemy group (barely) and pass out wakies.

Ignore them and only team with people who grasp the Zen that is defending?

Why not throw them in health and stamina, then pu 6 enhancement sets in them?

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And, come to think of it, Fire Controllers who open with Flashfire (ie pretty much all of them) would still get contained Hot Feet damage while the stun lasted.

Oh well, probably not my best idea then.

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I know one thing, the only thing that made the oraboras intro mish where your reduced to level 1 bearable was spec wounds+entangle arrow.

Hot foot is still a base of 7 or 8 damage though :P

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Enigma, have you been reading my Combat Guide lately? Just wondering, because it's almost like you're quoting it.

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Nope, never read it. Just drawing on my experiences here, and playing the following MMO's.

Age of Conan
Everquest
Everquest 2
D&amp;D Online
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Auto Assault
Tabula Rasa
World of Warcraft
Rappelz (or however it's spelled)
Guild Wars....

Should I go on? Most of these I still renew fairly regularly. In all the ones I still play, I play all the character types.

Edit, remembered a few more to add to the list.
Star Wars Galaxies
Warhammer Online (did the 14 day trial, experienced a quarter of the game, got bored quick)

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Phantom Army unslotted for damage does no net damage. But the healback from illusionary attacks is not affected by damage enhancements.
So an unslotted attack may do 20 damage and heal back 20 later, but a slotted one will do 40 damage and heal back 20.
Spectral Wounds is the same - 50 damage, heals back 20 becomes 100 damage that heals back 20 when slotted. I really noticed this with my Illusionist, that at level 18, letting the Phantom Army loose on a spawn would distract them. By the mid 20s, the Phantom Army would defeat them instead, thanks to the damage slotting I'd put in there.

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At level 27 (almost 28) my illusion/ta still effectivly does no real damage with PA if there's more then 3 enemies. They keep switching targets. Granted, it's currently slotted with (all lev 25 common IO) 1 acc, 2 recharge, 1 damage. Half the damage they do with any given attack heals by the time their second attack finishes.

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Frankly corrupters are effectively what defenders would be if they actually buffed the defender damage. At which point the corrupter forum would fill up with complaints asking why people should play a corrupter when defenders do it all better.

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No, corrupters are what defenders would have been if their primary function was offense rather then team defense.

You may ask why I say that. Consider this, the primary set of an archetype denotes what their main focus should be. The secondary set is to help them do it. All archetypes need damage though since the ability to solo IS intended. I think it's been mentioned by a dev at one point that all power combos need to be able to solo heroic level missions. If it can't do that, there may be balance issues.

Ok, how do I come by the claim that corrupters are primarily suppose to be offense rather then team defense? Look at the archetypes.

Hero side we have
Tankers: Primary power sets are defensive in nature. They are designed to take a huge beating instead of team mates less able to take the damage. In any MMO I've played such a character role tends to sacrifice much of their offense for the ability to absorb damage like a sponge. And tankers are no different. They have a somewhat low damage modifier.

Scrapper: Primary power sets are melee offense (mostly). Their intended role is melee damage dealer. In most every MMO the 'melee damage' types tend to have weak to moderate defenses and high damage. Scrappers do this.

Blasters: Primary powersets are ranged offense, with secondary power sets of melee offense. Their intended role is ranged offense. In most every MMO I've played the ranged offense classes (mostly mages and ranger types) have strong ranged damage, strong melee damage if needed, but little to no defense. Or if they do have defenses their laughable at higher levels.

Controllers: Primary power sets are control, of course. Here is where it starts to get a little dicey. In most MMOs I've noticed there is no strict battle field control types. That's not to say they can't be done. Take a look at DDO for example. Mages, bards, and sorcerers can be built to do crowd control/buffing. To do so they sacrifice much of their damage potential though.

Defenders: Primary power sets are support, with damage for secondaries. In most every MMO I've played the support types can do damage. Their main focus is usually to heal, buff, and/or debuff. however they can also do some respectable damage if designed right. Never anywhere near the damage of those classes designed for offense, but respectable damage.

Some MMOs give the ranged damage types support type powers. Snares, hard controls such as holds, debuffs (usually minor in most mmo's). These crowd control powers can be used to protect a team, but the main focus is still offense. Corrupters fall into this line of design. Stalkers are more closely related to rogue types in most MMO's, while masterminds are a easy comparison. Many have pet classes. Dominators are a variation on the support types found in many MMO's. Respectable damage combined with team defense. Brutes would be akin to the typical warrior types in MMO's. Possible high defense or high offense, but it depends on your build and playstyle which you get.

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Defender does less damage than any other class, and uses the same endurance. Yes, they do more for teams, but not everyone teams all the time.

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Uhm, actually controllers generally do less damage. As I look through the level 50 damage of a fire controller (considered the highest damage one) I notice that while it has a few powers that will out damage the defender blast set I'd mentioned, it requires containment to do more damage then most defender blasts with the mainstay damage dealers. And to get containment, mobs have to be locked down, thus negating Bonfire's ability to damage them. Bonfire's the highest damage power in the set too.

This means the controller damage either has to be done single target (which will take longer and use more endurance) or a require letting mobs run around and attack you in the hopes they run into bonfire. This is for fire control only.

How about illusion controllers? Another high damage controller set.
Spec wounds does out damage most controller attacks, and yet it doesn't. 10 seconds after use it loses almost 20 points of it's damage. Single target by the way. Blind does less damage then most defender attacks, and is single target too for it's damage.

Phantom army then? Those pets are high damage, right? Well they are, sort of. For burst damage they do a lot of damage. They then have most of that damage heal after a few seconds. And since they love to randomly change targets, enemies can get ample time to recover. No containment for them too. So that's two powers modified by containment damage only.

That brings us to Phantasm, the capstone of the set. Phatasm isn't going to out damage defenders either. Two attacks which might be slightly stronger, but it's still only two attacks. So no, defenders do more damage overall then controllers. Even if you factor in containment. And if an enemy is highly resistant to mez they do more damage still.

(someone may claim this is covering multiple points but no, I'm simply taking time to do a fair review)

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The problem with having an endurance discount for foes in range is that the Defender, a non-melee AT is forced into closer range in order to benefit from the inherent.

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Actually, most of my defenders prefer melee. And if it gave an end discount based on players/enemies nearby it would presumably (I'd hope) count you too.

Expanded: Just logged into my illusion controller (love it btw) and checked something. I'd dare suggest that PA can't kill anything if there's 3 or more enemies in the group. The enemies heal from too much of the damage. They are more of a distraction that adds some spike damage.

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Doesn't seem like a big difference to you, right Turbo? And yet it is in actual game play. What is part of why I find defenders more fun then corrupters? The fact that they don't die frequently. As I'd previously mentioned, with no to-hit debuff slotting in radiation infection on a defender Atta was unable to kill me. In fact, once I stopped joining PUGs at level six my rad/rad defender practicably was immortal. Only reason that character got deleted at level 26 was because I had grown frustrated with teams back in issue four. My corrupter however still is dying at least six times per mission at least at level 12. Has been since level five. I get tired of dying constantly, and log out in favor of a more fun character. I'm slowly slogging through the levels because my rad/rad corrupter is part of an overall RP storyline me and a friend are doing in CoX. To me, it's not fun so I don't play it. Dying constantly isn't fun.

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I think you just called yourself a bad player.

Furthermore, you've sworn off teaming and you're arguing about two heavily team oriented archetypes. You don't have any high level corrs, so you're specifically talking about low level soloing. You're managing to die 6 times per mission, so you aren't talking high level or even average play. You're seriously blowing my mind. The last time I played a lowbie rad I don't think I've ever had a mission where there were 6 deaths and I rarely do anything other than 8 player pugs. I can't quite comprehend where you're coming from.

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Nope, I didn't. I've had more trouble surviving on a corrupter of the same level then defenders of the exact same power sets. I didn't swear off teaming, although back in issue four I got very disgusted with it. Trying to play lowbie rad defenders on teams where people intentionally kill anchors first and formost, then complain when a small heal isn't enough to keep 8 people standing? You'd get tired of it too.

Hell, when I stopped announcing who I'm anchoring debuffs on I'd seen teams stop until they figure out who the anchor is, then kill it first. Then at the time when I stopped teaming with the rad/rad defender I started actually living.

My corrupter though? Tends to die quite frequently. In part it's due to getting the debuffs later, thus not being able to slot them quickly. As a defender I'd had radiation infection for example slotted with two to-hit and three end redux. I'd had enervating field slotted with three end redux, and damage 3 slotted in both my mainstay attacks. That would be neutrino bolt and x-ray beam at low levels since their fast charging. In short, I was for one thing actually gaining more then .16 endurance per second while fighting. Thus solo at least toggles werent' dropping due to lack of endurance.

That's something my corrupter by the way experiences frequently. The defender also got hit far less often too, and when it was hit there was less damage taken. But maybe you don't like to factor that in. Or the fact that lingering radiation at level 12 helps with survivability at low levels far more then another meh blast or aim does. Or are you thinking that the corrupter should have all the primary abilities so far? Let's check that build, shall we? Oh, if a corrupter is doing that, their not getting the debuffs that will help them survive? Amazing isn't it.

That means a corrupter has to chose between meh damage (until an enemy is nearly dead) or even more meh damage and the few defensive powers available at low levels. Gee, is it any wonder survival can be troublesome?

Oh yes, and then there's another wrinkle. Teaming. man that's a headache villain side on Guardian. Either it's a PL team (which I don't do), or they boot me for not being /thermal, or they yell at me to do nothing but spam radiant aura. And then boot me if I do anything sensable like use a debuff or throw out an attack.

My ice/thermal corrupter has another problem... I get booted if I do anything except heal again... Including using the resistance buffs. And that one soloes even worse then the rad/rad due to only having ONE power to rely on defensivly right now... a low value heal.

So yes, I must be a bad player if low level corrupters die frequently. Because there can't be any other reasons can there? Playing defenders couldn't possibly have taught me how to play similar characters, could they?

Oh, another event that made me reluctant to team with defenders for a good long time. And this was the FIRST thing I experienced mind you.

Try picturing this for someone who'd JUST started playing and rolled a dark/rad defender. I'd gotten to level seven and was getting the hang of the character. I had entered the hollows for the first time, and got invited to a team. It was an Atta mission, and the enemies were all level 15. I asked for a sidekick since I knew there was no way I could hit them, let alone survive without it. This is what the team kept telling me:

"You don't need a sidekick, just heal. You don't need to hit, just heal. Don't attack, just heal."

DARK defender remember. To-hit check on the heal. Can you figure out why I got so frustrated with teaming on defenders for a year or two? That was the first attitude towards defenders I encountered. It was the main one I encountered. People who would bring along a defender just for healing, and deliberately negate everything else the defender does.

And if I sound like I'm ranting, I am. Nice going there. You made a blind assumption about player skill based on dying frequently with an archetype which gets slower access to buff/debuff powers then defenders. I love defenders, and their one of the main archetypes I play. I've got at least one of every primary I'm working on. The FF and Sonic ones are lowest since they get few teams and don't solo well.

EDIT

Just tried running the same mission with my rad/rad corrupter again, this time on difficulty 1. Again, endurance runs out I get killed. How does this happen? Well, let's see here. I believe it has something to do with an endurance recovery rate of 1.67 endurance per second, and endurance consumption rate of 1.49 endurance per second. Sure I could hit Accelerate Metabolism and get an end recovery rate of 2.17, but that also speeds up attack recharge. Thus actually causing me to burn endurance faster. Consider that for a moment too before claiming I must be unskilled.

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C'mon people, this Corrupter vs Defender rivalry needs to end. The differences are fairly minute. We need to stop fighting each other and start fighting controllers.... and kins... and kinetic controllers!

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I have nothing against corrupters. I personally don't find them fun, but I don't have any grudge against them. What I have a grudge against is people claiming that corrupters are innately superior to defenders thus all defenders should reroll as a corrupter once Going Rogue comes out. But then I also have a grudge against people claiming controllers are innately superior to defenders too.

Also a nit pick... Focus is a ranged knockdown attack, not a to-hit buff. Your thinking follow up. Also, followup is a single target attack which gives a static to-hit buff. Black dwarf mire is a pbaoe which gives a to-hit and damage buff per enemy hit. It is a modified clone of Soul Drain, not follow-up.

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No point in trying to argue with these two "believer" types, logic and facts mean nothing against their belief that they are right.

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Uhm, your 'logic' and 'facts' ignore a whole lot of factors. According to you, only the 'best' is ever played. And yet your viewpoint is proven wrong time and again. You also ignore the balancing factors in favor of your belief that corrupters are inherently better then defenders due to higher base damage. Very well then, let's see just how much higher the damage is without relying on their inherent. That is the lynch pin of your argument after all.

Corrupter's Electric Blast
Charged Bolts
41.71 average damage
2.5% chance for 41.71 damage for every precentage below 50%

Lightning Bolt
68.40
2.5% chance for 68.40 for every percentage below 50%

Ball Lightning
average damage 42.54
2.5% chance for four ticks of 11.68
damage for every percentage below 50%

Short Circuit
average damage 37.54
2.5% chance for five ticks of 7.51 damage for every percentage below 50%

Zapp
average damage 115.11
2.5% chance for 115.11 damage for every percentage below 50%


Tesla Cage
(crap damage)

Voltic Sentinel
44.49 average damage every 3.5 seconds or so

Thunderous Blast
average damage 217.26
2.5% chance for 41.71 damage for every percentage below 50%

Defender Electrical Blast
Charged Bolts
average damage 36.15

Lightning Bolt
average damage 59.28

Ball Lightning
average damage 36.87

Short Circuit
average damage 32.53

Zapp
average damage 99.76

Tesla Cage
(again crap damage, this time 5.42 instead of 6.whatever)

Voltic Sentinel
average damage 35.59 every 3.7 seconds or so

Thunderous Blast
average damage 193.62

Looks to me like the damage is pretty comparable. Scourge is the only thing that really pulls corrupter damage ahead, but then they were balanced around having scourge. it's also interesting to note that corrupters are listed as a high damage archetype. Defenders on the other hand are listed as a medium damage archetype. So corrupters are SUPPOSE to do more damage then defenders. And the only way they really pull ahead of defenders in damage is via scourge, which can at times be unreliable. Think about that for a moment Turbo. Please, think on it.

EDITED
Ok, and here's something else you should consider Turbo. Defenders are balanced around mid range damage and strong team buffs/debuffs. And in all honesty, defenders are probably the most balanced archetype. There's a reason when defenders got an inherent it sucked. They didn't really need anything to begin with. A defender's damage only sucks if you compare it to high damage archetypes. They actually do pretty decent damage if slotted right.

I would like to put a few more nails of logic in the coffin for the idea that corrupters will supplant defenders hero side.

For scrappers Dark Melee/Shield Defense is considered the best AV soloing build. By Turbo's logic, this means it's the best and thus everyone gravitates towards playing it. And yet you still see the full range of scrapper primaries and secondaries. Why? Because people will play the sets they think are fun, and/or the sets that fit the character concept. Since all the sets are balanced, but around different things this means that no one choice for power set is best.

Tankers get extreme levels of protection combined with high damage if you use the right sets (fire and super strength, I'm looking at you). So why are people playing scrappers? For that matter, why is it not everyone plays fiery melee and super strength tankers?

If smashing and lethal damage are heavily resisted and thus archery and assault rifle are gimped, why do people play those sets as blasters? On a similar note, why is it not everyone plays psy blasters and energy blasters? I'm lead to believe those are the most powerful sets. Oh, and fire blast for aoe. But people play all the blaster sets. Interesting.

If trick arrow is out preformed by everything and super gimped like we're suppose to believe (according to the defender forums), then why is it I've been encountering more and more trick arrow defenders lately? I thought people avoid playing anything that's gimped in comparison to another AT/Power set.

If controllers buff almost as well as defenders, do the same or more damage then defenders, plus get hard controls... Why do people play defenders? Wouldn't everyone that was going to make a defender roll a controller instead?

If bot/dark and bot/trap masterminds (followed closely by bot/ff) are THE best mastermind sets, why doesn't everyone play those combos exclusively for masterminds? According to the logic of "People will play the superior set/archtype" there should be no merc, necro, thug, or ninja masterminds. Yet I see plenty of them. There should also be no representatives of the various mastermind secondaries. Yet I've seen all being used.

In short, claiming that people will only play the perceived 'best' is a inaccuate. People play what is fun, what fits their concept, and what they personally perceive as best. And since no two people think alike, no two people will agree on this. Even those with the same power sets can slot very differently.

I've seen electric blasters for example who slot for end mod instead of damage. "But that's gimping yourself" some might claim. It's a play style choice. Said blaster may want safety at the expense of kill speed. Some people get so much recharge they can chain their 2 or 3 hardest hitting attacks endlessly. Others like to have an attack chain that can be varied. Even if both have the same power set, they have different goals and play styles.