Madadh

Not to pile onto what others have pointed out, but I also find this time frame.... weird. I have a rad/rad def build for team support. She's great at team support, but not what you'd expect from a GM/AV soloer.. With a few inspires she can solo a lot of avs in 20 or less,and that's not her focus.. Not the scary tough ones, mind, but still.

All that said, I totally salute your dedication to GM destruction if you stick with it for over 30 minutes or more than once and come out with a win!! Not only can you kill GMs but you are tougher than I am.

Slightly off topic, but, as you brought the combo up.... Is Ice/Cold that good? I know it's strong, but... Does that hold true for the defender Cold/Ice? Do you know? Feel free to PM me as opposed to threadjacking all the way to Acheron and back.

Didn't say it wasn't feasible to keep, just that I'd be tempted not to, because if you're soloing an AV, both Veng and Mutation are dead weight powers, except as mules for IOs. You can't res pets or AIallies, and I dont' think you can Veng off of them, either, but that I wouldn't swear to, since now that I think about it, I've never tried. I'd recommend having a team build and a soloing build, but yes, if you want a team build that can solo the tough stuff, it can still be done, it's just a little harder.

I think I'd be tempted to lose Veng and Mutation on a solo build, and add in Assault and Acrobatics. It might be hard to get rid of the LotG mule, tho, but I'd bet in the long run not getting held and the extra damage output would make it worthwhile.

The pairing of Fire Armor and Dark melee was a blast on a Brute, so no reason it can't perform well for ya on a tank. Good luck,and make sure to let us know how it goes for ya.

I agree totally that all sets have to be balanced around SOs, but if you're saying IOs should be disregarded, I disagree with that portion. All of the other sets already take IOs into account, so no nerfing of them would have to happen when creating a new set that hasn't already happened, or is going to happen regardless of whether a new set gets introduced or not. For example, if I'm a dev and I created a new set called, for example, Force Fields, and made it almost exactly like Invul (forget for a moment how boring and silly that would be) and the only differences were the visual animations and effects, and that every power could slot any and every set IO type, this set would be exactly as balanced with SOs as Invul is. But we all know that it would be very OP compared to Invul, so much so probably, that almost nobody would make an Invul any more. So, what I'm getting at is that yes, a set needs to be playable, fun, and able to have reasonable success with just SOs, but you have to consider IOs as well. And the Devs certainly do and have done that in the past. You don't want to create a set that can become out of proportions to the rest when IOs are included. I think, that as this is currently proposed, it does that. Not to a huge degree like my intentionally over the top example, but I think as it is it would be by far the strongest tank set all around if you could afford to IO it heavily. Maybe if you lost any place to slot Def, or lost toxic, or, well, there are probably 30 ways to balance it, and yet still keep the feel and uniqueness you're going for.


I think that that is the trap that player designed Sets almost always fall into. Obviously, you create something you want to play. So, you start putting in things you want. And it becomes a wish list/all-star lineup of things that, taken individually, aren't unreasonable, but as a combined whole, become a lot more than the sum of their parts. This ends up making an OP set.

Resist sets are nice, because of all the goodies IOs can add to them. So people want to make their new sets resist. Check. Regen debuff would be awesome. Check. It's gotta have a def power or two, so you can end up with 5 LotGs without total pool reliance. Check. It needs a damage aura, of the least resisted type of damage in the game. Check. Gotta have a good start to the Psi resistance, so I can have the psi hole many sets are prone to able to be fully plugged via some Impervium Armor globals and smart set choices. Check. Gotta have a decent base toxic resist since that's hard to plug via IOs. Check. It must have -End and -recovery, so sappers aren't a pain. Check. Make sure to include debuff resistance. Check. Needs a power that ramps up the global damage bonus so I'm not stuck being a defensive tank. Check. Needs some recharge love. Check. Needs recovery love. Check. Needs regen or a self heal. Check. And a self-rez... That does damage... Of the least resisted type in the game..... And has a built in mez... Check. (I'll admit that you considered changing the damage type to energy on the self rez, but it's still very close to Darks then, without the drawback of darks self rez). I mean, what doesn't this set have? And is it in line with the holes in the other sets? I don't think so as it stands.

So, I think if you start asking yourself, not what would be awesomesause, but what is absolutely necessary for the theme, and basic playability and try to lose some of the extras, you might be better off from a balance standpoint.

That is not to say that I don't think this set can work given some changes,and still be quite awesome, fun, and unique, but it probably won't get there if achieving awesomesauciness is your main guiding principle.

I really like this concept, and hope the devs consider it, but I think our chances of it seeing the inside of the game go up is we show them that it can be well balanced. And so I hope my critiques don't come off as just bashing, but as a genuine desire to help it get there..

+Bonus points for the Wealth of Nations reference and quote.

That would probably work fairly nicely.

While it's not a huge deal to me, I gotta agree with this position. Is there any other time that someone is punished or restricted just because they selected the ideal power for a given situation? It'd be like having your self heals suppressed when below 75% health. ""Oh, yes, you can use that heal in mundane situations, but when things are critical, it'll be turned off.." (I know, that's a extreme simplification, but it is sorta the same.) If someone spends a precious power slot on a power because they feel it'll be very helpful in certain situations, and then find it suppressed in just those situations I can well imagine they'd be a bit miffed. I think it's the temp/vet powers that make this a real problem. Why not suppress just those in this instance? (Although, I do realize that there are probably some serious technical obstacles in the way.)

I'm probably just out of the loop on the lingo, but can't figure out what a DK/ scrapper is.

I'll just reiterate that this comment is as groundless as it was before.

The point is that at base levels there is a statistically significant chance that even a very skilled player, that has spent a TON on a support AT could have everything turn on 1 event. Yes, there are breakfrees available for this situation, but as the amount of mez has proliferated, the amount of breakfrees able to be carried hasn't also gone up (or the duration on each hasn't gone up). If this was an issue that was consistent, or even more consistent across ATs, then there wouldn't be a discussion.

First, it's not a really a big fuss. It would be a nice, welcome change to try some adjustment to the way mez is in the game. It seems like there are several ways that may work for this. Some people may a preference for one idea or another, but I don't think most are set on one idea. It's far from a fuss to say, "X is out of balance some,and often causes frustration. Not something most people would quite the game over, but it would be a nice QoL change for the people that play support types.

But, the reason it's come up at all, if by, "big fuss," you mean, 'raised the issue,' is that almost everything else, you can do with any AT, if you want to, but APP/PPP power selection, or careful IOing. Mez protection is the one area you can't. Wanna blast with a tank? You can. Wanna heal others with a Brute? No prob. Wanna mez with a scrapper? Sure thing. Soft cap a blaster, like a SR scrapper? Easy (maybe expensive, but...).
2/3 the ATs have some mez redress already, so it's not likely gonna be game breaking to look at mezzes again.
And, to further add why it's specifically mezzes and not something else, is that there is a frustration factor of not being able to do anything at all. It's even worse if you can't do anything at all, and are vulnerable. And if proactive defense IS your defense, then getting mezzed is akin to getting all your toggles dropped. Which was so frustrating for tanks and scraps and brutes (even as rarely as they get mezzed) that players lobbied to get that changed, successfully, and justly so.

I'm glad you leveled your corruptors and defender when it wasn't an issue, back when mezzes were rarer. Or that you played only in situations that minimized the effect. Or that you just plain got very lucky. Regardless, it is an issue. Not a huge one. I'm not planning on quitting the game, or even playing certain ATs less. Some people might, but I can't speak for them on that. But, several people have explained the issue quite eloquently, if you wanted to reread through most of the discussion.

I've played 6 defenders and 3 controllers to 50. And about 45 other supports ATs (Corrs, Defs, and Trollers). And I didn't find it an issue either for the first 3 or 4 years I played this game. It really only changed fairly recently. But, if you started playing your support ATs again,and found you were getting mezzed just the right amount for your particular tastes, I'm sure you wouldn't have to slot any theoretical IO they added. Or you wouldn't have to respec into theoretical APP mez protection powers. But I'm fairly confident that if you started playing any of the alts you mentioned again with any regularity, and realized that there is a difference now, and some form of mez protection were made available, you'd seek it out.

Very fair point. I apologize. I try not to let any biases get in the way, but obviously fail from time to time. Thanks for calling me on it.

To your other point:
That the ATs are different from each other surely is important. But they don't all need to be differnt in all regards, and the quality of the differences is important, too. Blasters blast, as do several other ATs. We don't feel the need to keep ranged, primarily damaging attacks away from other ATs. In fact, I can't think of ANY AT that can't get a single target, ranged attack that is mostly damage dealing. It's the amount of damage that they do that differentiates the ATs, and at what level they gain access to this ability.

Certainly, if everyone has access mez protection, then they no longer differ in whether or not they have access to mez protection. I don't think that is a difference that makes the game better. So therefore, keeping that difference, prevents the game from being better. I would not advocate the same type or degree or magnitude of protection, nor that the level of availability should be the same. I think that is a much better way to differentiate the ATs.