MadScientist

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I fail to see what your complaint is with the infamy requirement, other than you might have to leave VG Mode.

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Leaving SG Mode is *exactly* the primary problem with that badge.
I think the problem he's raising with your tone is that you seem to outright refuse to acknowledge that someone else may see that as a problem even though you do not. In fact, many someone elses have stated they do, and explained it in detail, as covered in this thread.
The gameplay choice of this badge+content vs helping a SG can hurt a SG in the simple way that the SG has less Prestige than it would have. And the Devs ackowledged all that and changed the badge.

Now if you don't like the new badge... well, you seem unwilling to compromise to any of the other 200+ badges out there that don't impact a SG, so I won't ask again.

I wonder if it would be codable to have each of the TV's arcs unlocked by a different explore badge? sort of channel surfing. That would be more difficult than just 1 explore - consider that Tarixus is the equivalent of 4 explores.

you know, that's a good point.
If there was a limit on how quickly someone could raid the storage bins, that prevent some problems. If you see 10 enhancements disappear to a character of the wrong origin, you can ask them what's up, or explain how it's better that they beg for infamy from the group instead of selling the enhancements. If you see 100 disappeared yesterday, it's a bit too late for anything like that.

of course, you could still get someone inviting 10 different friends into the group, promoting them, and having them run off with stuff in small batches. but again, there's no way to prevent griefers, we just need to make things more difficult for them to minimize the amount of people you have to chase after later.

You didn't answer my question: name another badge from the list of over 200 that would require more work but not involve infamy. You addressed the one I suggested (sort of - you didn't say if you had worked for it or stumbled upon it) but have yet to give one of your own besides returning to Midas. and Midas isn't problematic for most people because of the effort involved, it was problematic because of the effects it has on your SG.


I take the complete opposite stance on working for contact badges. I think unlocked contacts *should* be worked at. Getting a "side effect" badge like for Infamy is not a fun way to unlock something.

If you can't increase the magnitude, I'd be happy if the recharge time of HF was reduced a bit. That would lead to more healing per minute, even though I'd have to fire it more often.
Just tossing out options.

I see your point than an explore badge being too easy, but can you come up with a request for a badge that's not trivial but doesn't have SG issues? for example, would Electrician be challenging enough?

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- if the badge were inside the relatively safe pvp zone entrance, the non-pvp players could not really object, and the level issue would be solved

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You might think that, and I might think that, but apparently there was enough fuss from the community at large about talking to a contact in that same safe area that they made new out-of-zone contacts.

Fixing a hard level requirement would achieve the same result without having to make a new explore badge. It can also be done at any level, not just the zone levels. It would require very little code if they added a new invisible badge for hitting that level.

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- not giving credit for grey cons would be the worst idea ever. I only got into badge hunting after level 40, and did not even KNOW about accolades untill then. Badge hunting is a part of the game I really like, ESPECIALLY in the hours when I cannot find a team. Making grey-cons not register, would deny me something I enjoy in the game, and exemplaring down is NOT the answer for me.

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oh no, I'm not saying that has to be fixed at all. sometimes the only way to get a badge is to hunt greys.

I'm just saying it seems the Devs have imposed a requirement on each accolade that you can't farm greys for at any point. eg, Crystal Keeper and Deathless.

Let me tangent a moment. There may be a way to allow credit for greys but not credit for someone doing it for you. Require that you're within XP range on the team - similar to how it decides to award SOs for AV defeats - not XP range of the target. I'll use a 40 Fake Nemesis kill as an example. If you're 35 and a 50 teammate kills them, you get nothing. If you're a 35, you SK up to 49 and the 50 kills them, you get credit since you're within range of the team. If you kill them solo at level 49, you get credit, of course. The current problem isn't so much killing greys, as it is having a 50 kill greys for 7 people who sit at the ferry - this suggestion would solve that by having the 50 only help 1 person at a time, and that person has to tag along in SK range where they'll probably end up firing off a shot or two.

But that's neither here nor there. The system as it currently exists allows people to earn badges for other people. It seems that all of us are now being hit with harder accolade requirements because some people get 50 SG friends to earn their accolades for them. The whole point of this chain of thought, however, was that Deathless was going a bit too far along that design and it's too much harder.

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- Any claim that this is done to prevent farming the badge, are only true to a certain extent. To farm debt intentionally only becomes rewarding at higher levels, true, but it's also far easier for a paid service to farm it than the kill-mobs ones (yes, i've seen the adds for the Atlas Medaillon and other hero accolades). As for high levels in a SG/VG helping lower levels get the kill badges - uhm.. wasn't there this idea of stimulating people to be social? I don't really see the harm in it. If you want level restrictions to be in place (in which case, PLEASE the same ones the heroes have) then do it by requiring a mission badge only the correct level players have access to. Location badges in the pvp zones come to mind.

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There's a fine balance between being able to help someone with a badge, and being able to do it for them. Unfortunately, however, the badge system is set up that you can kill grey-cons and get credit.

What I see with the CoV accolades is not so much a need to make every accolade require a level, but a requirement of *playing*. Doing a SF is a good example, but it's not solo-friendly. Debt would seem to be a good way to enforce playing over PLing, but has the other problems you list. Taking damage, mentoring, being held - those all can be achieved with some kind of grind, but are at least a step up from having someone kill grey-cons for you. And in the case of those grinds, each one could eventually be addressed with a code change if needed. (eg, mentoring already has some limit so you can't sit innactive for 10 hours, tweak this to include sitting in a CoT damage crystal.) (course, mentoring isn't solo-friendly and may be problematic for that reason.)

anyways, yeah, debt has its problems. I can see why it would be chosen, but the bad outweighs the good here.

Why not just make every accolade have a level requirement? This can sort of be done with hazard zone levels, but that's not possible in CoV. Forcing people into a PvP zone for an accolade will be seen as a problem for some players who absolutely hate PvP. Is that worth the brief exposure to PKers?
So why not just have every accolade directly have a level requirement? You need this set of badges AND need to be level 36 or whatever. I guess you could use the level 30 and level 40 badges if you needed to, but 10 level steps may not be the best option.

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I was considering the creation of something more powerful than inspirations. Apparently these buffs are worthless. If they had any worth at all in any situation, they would bring a price in the game economy. If you could get a buff that was reasonably made for 1 hour that allowed you to see through hide + invis or regen 50 percent more per second, higher level players would be shelling out the infamy/influence for odds and ends they don't currently have.

Anyways, why pay 50 infamy for a 60second inspiration when you can get a buff from a teammate for free?

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"more powerful than inspirations" is tricky. You can't completely out-class inspirations, as you say, it would create a huge market for salvage. However, the current effects are far too weak compared to inspirations - especially since most of them are only part of an inspiration's effect.
Perhaps they should do exactly what the inspirations do, the benefit being that they last 15 minutes instead of 30 seconds.

What we really need are more effects that can't be gained from Inspirations. Grant Invis is a great example of this. Resist End Drain isn't a bad idea, it's not exactly a Catch a Breath, but the cost is way too high compared to CaBs to be worth the slight difference in how it's used.
Consider if you could pick these up as temp powers: Aid Other. Aid Self. Stimulant. Hover. Web Grenade. Recall Friend. Teleport Foe. Group Teleport. Inertial Reduction. Black Hole. Rise of the Phoenix. Power Boost. Boost Range. Combat Jumping.
I'm listing things that are not damage powers, and are kind of situational, and are generally "fun" to play with.

then maybe this indicates the third damage badge is a good replacement for the debt badge. do you have that?

The idea here is to suggest to the Devs a replacement badge requirement that is earned at about the same character level for the "average" players, but the replacement badge will keep people happy if they avoid debt.

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Well I just earned Deathless on my level 37 plant/thorn Dominator ...

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Do you have Unbreakable yet on that character?

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Surely, it would make more sense to base this on how much damage you have taken, for instance.

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That would also make sense in saying "look, I have a high pain threshold!"

That badge can still be helped along by a higher level (they can LK you so you can take more damage per hit), but you really can't have a high level do all the work for you like they can with hunt badges. This requires *playing the game* just as much as a debt badge, but without the downsides of a badge of shame and of delaying leveling.

When do most people earn Unbreakable? I tend to see it in the upper 30s at the latest. That would be a fine level to expect to get this accolade.

yes, but people have always assumed unlimited Sidekicking ability when talking about minimum accolade levels. You can get someone in your SG to kill mobs for you while you stay at the ferry, or invite you to their level 35 mission, or teleport you to the top of Atlas for the badge. Atlas is minimum 7, if you get someone to help you kill Vampyri. It's usually 20, so you can get into Striga and get someone to kill Vamps for you there. It's really like 27 if you have to kill the Vamps yourself, but everyone I know always brings out a 50 to kill greys to help all their friends.

so the minimum is 10. but what's a practical level for HPT?

if you perma-debt with no exemping, 5 million takes you from level 10 to about half way in level 36.
if you assume half your level is in debt, it will take you until just shy of level 40.

though I seem to recall the number 2 million instead of 5 million. That would make the levels 32 with permadebt and 36 with half-debt.

and that assumes the total XP chart I found is correct.

Anyways... staying on topic... I wonder what the minumum level for this badge SHOULD be. Should it be possible for level 30s to go chasing this in hopes of using it in Siren's Call? And what if you're a good player who doesn't die, but you want this accolade? Do you kill yourself, and delay your leveling, at the levels where content really doesn't cover all the needed XP already? Or do you wait for 50, when the debt won't matter, and then never get to use the accolade on the way up to 50?

remember, for comparison, Phalanx can be unlocked at 24. Yes, you can't kill a single Fake Nemesis with your 24 - that doesn't stop people. Should HPT require enough debt to take you to the high 30's? That's the issue - is the unlocking level fair to Villains when you look at the hero equivalents?
Is the level fair at all, considering some people won't get the debt until the high 40s?

Upon further analysis regarding levels...

Villains have not managed to unlock equivalencies of these 3, listed here with the minimum level they exist for Heroes...
Portal Jockey - 1
Atlas - 7
Geas - 30
Though I've yet to see a level 1 with Portal Jockey, I'm sure someone out there has done it just to do it once. But I can see people making a case that they're an effective SK in a mission if they have SOs, so let's say this is unlockable by 22. That's still in time to use the accolade in Siren's Call, just like the other 2. So that's 3 extra powers heroes get to use in battling for Siren's Call.


Now let's look at the rest, I'll list Hero/Villain levels.

Mez Boost (Vanguard/Megalo) - 40 / 40
This is the only one I've found that's completely even as far as minimum possible level.

Def Boost (Archmage/Demonic) - 21 / 1
5% HP (TF Comm/Invader) - 35 / 1
Again, 1 is not too practical. Anyone want to suggest a level where most people actually unlock these powers?

From a Siren's POV, though, it seems the current limit is fair on the Def boost, and villains win on the 5% HP. So far 3 in favor for heroes, 1 for villains, 1 even.
but... wait... 5% HP is half of Portal Jockey. So villain's DON'T actually get anything, it's more like 2.5 in favor of the heroes.

10% HP (Phalanx/HighPain) - 24 / ???
I really don't know what level to use. You could do this at 10 if you were obsessive. (get debt, exemp, repeat.) How quickly can you get the debt badge if you perma-debt starting at 10? Would it be a fair average to assume half your level is in debt for an average player? What would that calculate to? Anyone know where I can find an XP table?

Crey Pistol / Immobilizer - 33 / ???
I don't think we have enough to judge this one yet.

and if anyone wants to replace there numbers with practical levels for unlocking, let's consider that. But it seems the heroes will get a lot more edge in SC, and probably in Warburg with the exemplar rules.

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To rehash the previous discussions:

1. The heroes get the equivalent accolade about 10-15 levels earlier, a common trend.

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I have yet to see one villian accolade that requires you to run 6 task forces. The Villian equivalent to Task Force Commander, Invader, is for getting the 9 mayhem mission exploration badges, so while heroes must wait until lvl 35 and spend at least 18 hours towards this badge, villians can spend an hour, jump into 9 mayhem mission with a lvl 45 backer and earn it. Yes many of the villian badges can't be earned earlier than heroes, but the effort to earn them is far less (so far as we've seen)

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Perhaps the Invader accolade should also include the Captain badge, just to prevent this kind of powereleveling to lackeys. I can see SGs offering a Magical Mayhem Tour as part of their recruiting package.

6 TFs isn't really that bad with the power you have from slots when you exemp as a 40. It's not much more time per TF than any hunt badge. Is 6 overkill? eh... I think the only problem here is that it's very unfriendly to people who solo.

However, this is about ONE Accolade that's easier for Villains. As a whole, the villain ones are much harder to get, and come at much higher levels. This strikes me as unfair, particularly when battling for Siren's Call.

on the list of accolade requirements, they all have this funky "if known" comment. It would be really helpful to label which of those lists are complete and which ones still need some input. For example, is there anyone with the 4 badges listed for Megalomaniac who still lacks the accolade?
That will just help us know where to focus future analysis.


Also of use:
Minimum levels for accolades based on the badges listed...
Megalomaniac - 40 (to get the RV explore badge)
High Pain Threshold - 10 (to get debt)
Demonic - 1
Task Force Commander - 35 (to run Numina TF)

Thank you, Devs, for the TV change. This has prevented a lot of SG headaches.
(I've been on vacation, if people wonder how I can be so vocal about this one day and then unresponsive to the change.)

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Currently on Live, there's a choice when doing any mission. You can either help your SG with Prestige, or help youself with Infamy. (which in turn could help your SG, but I'll keep this simple.)
On the Test server, this has become: Help your SG with Prestige and lose out on the TV content, or help youself with Infamy and be able to do a few more missions.
If content becomes far more important to that decision than anything related to the SG iteself, then the previous balance of the SG-or-no-SG choice is completely gone. People will choose the no-SG option for personal reasons. That seems really wrong in a multiplayer, social game environment.

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And if your SG fails because too many people are persuing their personal issues, so be it. Not all unions work and not everyone was meant to be in an SG. A true group would respect the desires for the individual, while working towards a compromise, which is entirely possible, just takes work, like any organization. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

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Let's be clear as to where the problem lies...
Currently, there is no situation of trying to have your cake and eat it too. The problem is that if this badge requirement goes live, it will then create that situation. Should it?
As you say, SGs take work. Choosing the Midas Touch badge to unlock the TV is going to make SGs take more work. Choosing Electrician to unlock the TV would not change the amount of work the SG take.


I've seen a lot of SGs fail for many reasons. I've seen this by way of a number of SGs in our coalition which have collapsed. If this requirement stays as it is on Test then, yes, as you describe there will be this new reason that a SG could fail.
Should the Devs add this potential risk to Supergroups? Is it worth this situation that may hurt Supergroups just to have a few more missions in the game? Is it really worth it when there could easily be other methods coded to get those missions?


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As Statesman stated, it was the intention that a single hero not be able to experience all content. You must choose, but as the true content will bring you exp, the false will earn you debt. :P

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Supergroup play is not content any more than teaming vs soloing is a difference in content.

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Again, your choice to stay in SG mode, mine not to. I intend on donating infamy to the SG by exchange, to help support. I WILL be putting the effort in to earn the badge and support my SG/VG.

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The heart of the matter is simply whether that the choice you describe should include a factor of seeing or not seeing certain content.

Currently on Live, there's a choice when doing any mission. You can either help your SG with Prestige, or help youself with Infamy. (which in turn could help your SG, but I'll keep this simple.)
On the Test server, this has become: Help your SG with Prestige and lose out on the TV content, or help youself with Infamy and be able to do a few more missions.
If content becomes far more important to that decision than anything related to the SG iteself, then the previous balance of the SG-or-no-SG choice is completely gone. People will choose the no-SG option for personal reasons. That seems really wrong in a multiplayer, social game environment.



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It really comes down to a simple opinion, which badge is best suited for a TV? INHO, it's an infamy badge as infamy = fame.

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I don't agree with your interpretation of the story-based reasons here. If I was famous, I would be *on TV*. What I'm doing here, however, is just *watching TV*. The level of my fame or infamy has nothing to do with my ability to stare blankly at a screen.

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- Instead of counting down by time, count down when you gain XP. (Use some equivalency for when you gain PvP Reputation.) Then the power ignores travel time, and can be balanced for one large fight or many small ones.

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Would this not be the same for SK/Lackey badges? You only gain progress when actively gaining XP? Or in this case, power time only gets used when actively participating in combat?

If so, then I would have to agree with this being a balanced change to avoid the power being lost with travel time/mapserver disconnects time issues.

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That's a great point! I had thought this would be a new system of tracking XP gains, but it appears they would have most of the code for this in place. All this does is then define the life of these powers as "15 minutes of activity" and not the current "15 minutes of gametime". It's a subtle difference, but is probably worth it.

Just to point out, though, it *is* gametime and not real time. so you can logoff or get disconnected and not lose out on your power. Travel and loading times, however, are currently an issue.

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Now why should contacts require infamy badges? Individual contacts are looking at YOU, and how well YOU have done things. They really aren't interested in how your VG works together, as they want to hire YOU!

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Not really. I'll take Dumont as an example, he requires Strike Buster. I can gain the badge while sitting at the Ferry while my level 40 teammate 1-shots a bunch of grey-cons for me. This has nothing to do with *me* doing anything.

This is a multiplayer game. I don't find it surprising that my game experience should change based on the players I interract with. Other players SHOULD be able to contribute to MY badge.

How do you know it exists if it is not confirmed?

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I think they need to change the buffs to 5 minutes but click to activate.

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As the game is currently coded, 1-time buffs expire if you die. (Such as Speed Boost, or Dull Pain.) An auto temp power will still be part of your character if you die and rez. This would be a real waste of salvage if you took 2 steps into the final room and lost your power.
It's possible they could code around that, but I don't know if they could do it in time for I7 since most of it's locked up.
Is the risk of having the power work for only 30 seconds worth the new benefit of activating it whenever you want?


Some other ideas to prevent the power from using up before you've really benefitted from it...
- Only have the power active inside a mission map, and thus only count down inside a mission map. Yes, you lose PvP effectiveness, but I thought these were mostly for PvE.
- Instead of counting down by time, count down when you gain XP. (Use some equivalency for when you gain PvP Reputation.) Then the power ignores travel time, and can be balanced for one large fight or many small ones.


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If they think that is too powerful they they should make it so you can only carry one.

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I think the very specific, high cost would already limit them. People are seeing one or two buffs per character level. If you want to save up and burn 6 buffs at once every 3 levels, that's fine.

Stacking up a lot of these may actually be more useful as you could hit the one you need right when you need it instead of running back to the base. But then, maybe that type of utility is not what the designers want out of this. It's certainly not in the roleplay theme of what these stations are. In comics, heroes are often faced with a challenge, they return to a lab, build a solution, and confront the bad guy again. You don't see heroes first equip for every situation and then set up and do everything perfectly the first try. So maybe these aren't supposed to function like the store in Sirens. Maybe the point of these is to make you use the base at a particular time instead of when you happen to be jumping past it and need to restock a power.

That said... does the gameplay need click-powers to such a degree that theme should be set aside here?

Probably the least of our worries... Radiation Emulator would be better named Radiation Emanator. or Radiation Emitter. An emulator is a simulator - considering the upper 2 levels are actual partical generators I don't think this is what you were going for.

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So, again I ask: why Midas Touch, instead of another badge that doesn't have this controversy? Why must this be a contact that even its proponents argue is reasonably likely to be only available to most characters at level 50, despite the fact that it is key to an accolade?

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Well put.

There are 200-some-odd badges. Just based on a list given in another post, it would seem Midas isn't even in the top 10 best candidates for this contact. This is poor design, and is pretty much what the training room exists to catch, right?


Consider Tarixus. He had a terrible requirement initially, that was Weed Whacker, and it was hard to achieve without LKing to someone. He *could* have been changed to Coldhearted - that would still require killing CoT mobs for his theme, it would still count Hellfrosts if you killed any of the L29-30 ones in Shark, and you could kill grey-con Hordelings if you wanted to solo something a little easier. Similarly, Mr Big would be slightly easier, and thematically similar. (it's 10 million Infamy.) But it would still have many of the same problems.
Tarixus was not changed to Coldhearted. He was changed to Lorekeeper. This was an improvement because they chose a badge that promotes zone exploration. This opens up a certain part of the game to players. It's engaging. It's fun. It's something my SG often helps new players find in-game. A change away from Infamy gain would have a large number of benefits, both direct and indirect.