MaXimillion_Zero

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signing up for this (first reserve spot i think?)

[/ QUOTE ]What stone did you crawl out under?

Anything that can ghost and TP

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but an INV definately needs heavy support to tank him.

[/ QUOTE ]I dunno, really. Our inv seems to do pretty well, I tend to just put heal other on auto and watch when he tanks LR while the towers go down. I'd imagine that, if need be, he could tank LR solo, or just with occasional heals off someone.

On the other hand, for a fire tank with tough, I need to be careful and use both Heal other and AP reactively, and they still go down sometimes.

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Why avoid second?

Its cool animation!

[/ QUOTE ]Because it doesn't fit in an attack chain, and I didn't have room for it

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If it wasn't for the one-shot-code he'd one-shot my Sonic Defender (70% S/L Resists plus HP Set Bonuses + Accolades) - his attacks have a considerable Energy damage component.

[/ QUOTE ]AFAIK the STF LR does only S/L damage, but I haven't tested it myself.

A guide? Meh, I'm too busy with LotRO atm, and haven't got my IO build ready yet :P

Just take all the BA attacks apart for the second and smash things

Challenge? Not really, the only issues I have post-nerfs are that the aggro cap is too small, and that I occasionally get held through my mez prot.

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Granite tank with six slotted taunt. A tauntless tank on a LRSF is almost deadweight.

And I'd only want that tank in preference to others for LR himself.


[/ QUOTE ]Granite and invul both hit S/L res cap solo. Granite suffers from heavy -rech, invul does not.

I know which I'd rather have.

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I'd think you'd need about 50 people there but that's just a guess

[/ QUOTE ]50 people minimum, with good coordination at least between team leaders if not everyone.

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If you see nothing wrong with this build, I don't want to team with you, ever

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That looks suspiciously like one of my builds too... (really! It's an "Ultra-defense" Stoner build!! )


[/ QUOTE ]But your build doesn't have the two biggest flaws of that one

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1,20
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armour
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Presence
Power Pool: Fitness
Ancillary Pool: Earth Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Stone Skin -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Frost -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Rooted -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Aid Other -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Provoke -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Aid Self -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Taunt -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Ice Patch -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Challenge -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Weave -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Granite Armour -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Invoke Panic -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Salt Crystals -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Fossilize -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Stalagmites -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Build Up -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]


<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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If you see nothing wrong with this build, I don't want to team with you, ever

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but we dont even actually know if most current tank builds could even stand up to 30 +2s, let alone worry about killing them.

[/ QUOTE ]There's quite a few people on these forums who can do detailed calculations on just how much incoming damage a build can take constantly without dying. You only need to multiply the damage currently generated by 15 mobs by 2, and you'll see if it'd work.

And personally, I think many builds could do it for most foe types, certainly if they had at least one (de)buffer as support.

I don't think it'd cause that many problems, really. Unless you intentionally herd to the cap (In which case you should know what you're doing, or end up dead), the increase would only really affect those situations when somebody accidentally aggroes too many foes, and currently, the tank can't in any way aggro them all and protect the team.

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Ice Blasters could also quickly become PvE FOTM due to Blizzard and Ice Storm ignoring the target AoE caps... etc.

[/ QUOTE ] AFAK, while it's said they do this, they don't in practise. They just switch to new targets once the old ones die since they work in ticks.

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But still i prefer Kings+FF combination. God bless Pocket D.

[/ QUOTE ]Steel works best if you ask me, and I always carry a WW TP temp around so getting there fast isn't an issue either.

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I think an increase in aggro cap would show the weakness of a fire tanks primary.

Other tanks would cope much more easily with bigger mobs

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just because you can aggro more, doesnt mean it would always be the best course of action. you'll still only be able to kill as fast because of AoE caps. i dont honestly think we'd know how it would affect us until it was on test, because so much has changed since the aggro cap was introduced.

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i think they should get rid of the aggro cap on test for a weekend, just to see what impact it has on the current gameplay.

[/ QUOTE ]That's assuming that aggro cap is a piece of code that can easily be removed. Knowing cryptic, there's no guarantee that's the case.

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If you taunted a 100 for a one hour duration and the aggro cap was 17 then you will have only 17 looking for you at any one time and any unaggro'd but taunted foes will not be able to attack other players who cant exceed the taunt duration.


[/ QUOTE ]It used to be that way when the aggro cap was added, but from what I've seen, nowdays they're quite happy to attack anyone in sight.

Well, while I would like getting rid of it altogether, that's not going to happen.

I think an increase would be good though, to something like 30 or 40 mobs.

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Glacial Blade, Ice/Axe iirc, Only 3*50s? *cracks whip*

Too much time on the forums...

[/ QUOTE ]As well as too many alts, too much debt, and too little powergaming

Thanks everyone, now all that's left to do is grind a few hundred million so I can get the sets I need &gt;_&gt;

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so... you wouldn't be able to do this without taunt? strange.. cause i dont even see the tank targetting any mobs until the end of the fight

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Mr. Motivator, that example you just gave did not fit the criteria for a real old time Herd.

[/ QUOTE ]On this, we agree. However, that same type of herding could be used on a far larger scale. You apparently never saw it done, but that doesn't make it any less true.

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Yet, pro rata, the subs on this game are not as impressive as then.
I would think that tells its own story.

[/ QUOTE ] Less people play the game as time passes, what a shocking relevation indeed.

Besides, last I checked, the subs were going up.

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If tanks could still do what they could prior to I5 then it would be City of Tanks.

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It wasn't City of Tanks then and it wouldn't be city of Tanks now. In fact Tankers were the lowest played AT of the lot. (prior to khelds)

[/ QUOTE ]Everybody was rolling fire/fire tanks in I3. When burn got fixed, people were rolling fire/ice tanks left, right and center.


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Nowadays the game is more diverse and team mates actually have a use.

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That's true to an extent but that does't invalidate my request of a passives beef up or a drop of the 55 debuff.
And I'll tell you something about that. You would think the USA boards would have been alight from Defenders and Controllers moaning about their lack of contribution. Rarely, if ever happened. And there is a reason for that. The game lost something when it went "diverse."

[/ QUOTE ]I remember quite a few posts by buffers, especially FF's, saying that teams didn't want them or that they didn't feel like they were really contributing. Funny that, eh?

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You state why should you have to keep revisiting your main and changing him...well hey thats life..things change. I for one love the IO system it gives more options and longevity to level 50s. If the game remained static it would be pretty dull.

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Don't disagree with that at all. Would just have preferred it if my golden oldie had stopped building after 3 years is all.

[/ QUOTE ] So you say you don't disagree with it, and in the next sentence you do?


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And I never said Max didn't have game knowledge. I said that to state that taunt is not the reason people cant herd they way they did is nonsense. Even today you can still take out 3 or 4 Tanks, attempt to herd 50 or 60 at a time. But it won't work nearly as well as the old Taunt system because you can't control that sort of aggro now the way you could then.

[/ QUOTE ] One tank can herd 17 foes, 4 tanks could herd 60 just fine, as long as they don't get in the way of each other.

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Back in the day it was hundreds. And, without taunt as it used to be, it cannot be done.

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Sound reasoning, were it not for the fact that with the aggro cap in place, it doesn't matter in the slightest that Taunt can only affect 5 mobs at a time because you can't control aggro for more than 17 mobs.

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Spad the argument didn't relate to that. I was purely stating, as a response to an earlier post that, because of the taunt nerf, you cannot herd ala the old days.

As I said even if every factor of the game was the same except taunt, it couldn't be done because, firstly, to run around aggroing that sort of number and keeping them, even if the other team members were half a map a way, would be time consuming to the point of pointless.
Secondly, unless you were refreshing the map constantly with taunt (pre I5), you cannot MANAGE that sort of aggro.
You'de be forever chasing your tail because of aggro duration.

Thirdly,Your team would be wiped, because you couldn't hold the aggro as soon as the villians were attacked. And, bearing in mind, a true herder brings (brought) along hundereds, the team would be wiped in a minute. And without the old style taunt in place you could never re establish and maintain anything like that kind of aggro in time.

So, my original point that you can't herd pre I5 levels directly because of taunt, stands.


[/ QUOTE ] Even if I couldn't accomplish all that with just my aggro aura (which I could), I'd still have fireball, which does exactly the same thing as taunt does. Which, basically, nullifies your argument on it's own.

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As I stated, the American boards agree with me. Whether the English boards do or not is fair enough.

[/ QUOTE ] 1. Not everyone on the american boards agrees with you.
2. Unless the americans have changed their language to spanish since I last checked, both boards are english.


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I have more credentials in the game than the vast majority of players on this side of the pond and have been a major Tanker since day one of the USA launch.

[/ QUOTE ]I know people who've played since launch who still suck at the game, and don't understand most of the mechanics behind it. Playtime is irrelevant, what matters is understanding the game.

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Just because I want the current state of Tanking to be more in line with how it was, abiet a scaled doewn version, doesn't entitle people to question my ability to play the game

[/ QUOTE ]No, it doesn't. The fact that you say you can't handle the current mobs does.

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In Maxes case, had he ever herded ewith the real American herders, he would never have commented that he can Herd as well, without taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]Whether they were american or not is irrelevant, I witnessed loads of different tanks herding pre-I5, and I know how they did it.

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It's not ED. It is the combination of ed and I5 that hit us far far harder thsn most ATS, directly and indirectly.

For a start, Invul Tankers never even thought to use the power pools of aid self or tough before that.

That meant we had to divert 3 powers from our previous game play just to play catch up.

[/ QUOTE ]But at least you COULD catch up. A lot of AT's couldn't.

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It's a bit of a shame to have a character for about 30 months build him to his max and still find yourself haveing to keep improving him all over again.
I don't mind doing that with newer chars but it irks I have to do it with my main.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, it'd be so much more fun if things stayed exactly the same forever.

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And, as a clue, if you could aggro everything in sight and were as invulnerable as pre I5 levels, herding, without Taunt, could not be accomplished in anything like the levels that prompted this friendly little debate.


[/ QUOTE ]If you refer to the level of ridiculousness that herding by using taunt reaches, no, it couldn't. If you refer to the amount of mobs, it could, and would be.

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The Tank would jump in the middle of the first mob, one taunt, then run to the second and taunt and then the third... 2 minutes later he would have hundreds of baddies attacking him. The team would then pick them off.

Now how does that differ from todays taunt?
Well, for one thing taunt can only attract 5 at a time rather than 30-40 whatever.
So, you got to get your little avator to guantlet everything separatly and rely on your inherent taunts to do the rest.

So, you pull a group. Problem is, maintaining the taunt. Cause you can only taunt 5 at a time and inherent aggro has limited range and wears off if not coonstantly on the villian.

So even if there wasn't an aggro limit, you couldn't maintain your grip on them.


[/ QUOTE ]Yes, you could. My aggro aura ticks twice per second, aggroing everything within 10 feet of me. I also have a fireball that I can use to taunt groups further away. If there was no aggro cap, I could keep aggro from at least 50 mobs, if there were no AoE caps, I could keep it from several hundred, with a few buffs to boost my survivability.

And yes, that's without taunt.

I also was around during I3 and I4, and saw a lot of herding tanks. The only thing I ever saw any serious herder use taunt for was keeping foes in burn patch once they were herded.