Luminara

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The Night Widow's Smoke Grenade is exactly the same scale for both Perception (-90%) and To Hit debuff (-0.5) as Smoke Grenade (and Fire Controls 'Smoke' and Trick Arrow's 'Flash Arrow'.)

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If Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff is 0.5, my left nipple is a stalk of celery.

And there's no celery attached to my body.

Flash Arrow's accuracy debuff was tested and verified at 15% by Goofy_Parrot. Recheck your numbers or get to fixing Flash Arrow. *cracks whip*

And fix my ZAPPY ARROW, darnit! It's still glorfing!

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SK/Exemp possibly needed

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Just a note - exemping below 32 will throw off the results, due to the nature of the exemp system's enhancement devaluation effect. We need data that is untainted by as few outside factors as possible, so I suggest we keep the basic team level at or above 32 to avoid coming out of this with questionable numbers or anything that could later be pointed to as "wrong because X wasn't accounted for".

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Also, if everyone has TeamSpeak I'd prefer to use that over typing (old and lazy me); but if this isn't doable, I guess I'll let you primitives drag me back to the stone age and use the keyboard.

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I'd prefer to stick with text for communication. In-game chat is what a "typical" team or pick-up group would be using, and I think it's important for us to avoid doing anything out of the ordinary. Vocal communication would give us better coordination and control over situations than average teams/PuGs would have, which would also end up contaminating the tests.

If TS is going to be the preferred method, however, I'll use it. I won't speak (if i could replace my vocal cords with a text display, i would), but I'll listen to instruction as needed.

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Luminara, I think the 36 PB is probably a good target. If we can get more mid-30's folks, it'll give a decent indication of the post-SO, pre-Hami game.

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I was thinking exactly the same thing about HOs. I would've had to reslot Dancing Hawk rather extensively to bring her to a testable state.

I can get some Carls on the test server to gauge the AV combat situation.

Solarsong, my 36 PB, is at your disposal Thursday evening.

If I get Sand Wasp, my Arch/En blaster, up to 30+ by then, I'll add her to the pool of available characters.

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How does Thursday evening (5/18/06) at 7:00 p.m. Eastern sound?

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Test server?

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Sidekicking/Exemplaring is fine for everyone except the TA/ Defender and his replacement(s); I don't want fewer powers for a SK or extra slots for an Exemplar skewing the results in any direction[*]If possible, I'd like the same player to run the TA/ defender and replacement(s); this may not be possible to do unless someone has multiple defenders (including TA/) at the same level

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50 TA/A and 50 Kin/Elec. Also a 50 Inv/SS tank, 25 Archery/Energy blaster, and 36 PB available, if someone has more defenders or we switch who's defending. The rest of my stable is composed of defenders and controllers (42 dark/dark, 26 ill/rad, 23 grav/ff), or too low to contribute (10 kat/SR).

Oh, I also have a 46 copy of Dancing Hawk on the test server.

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Gratz Plasma. It's about time you got a 50.

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Plas hax.

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In order for a single target immob to really be of any benefit, it has to debuff recharge

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The majority of the immobilizations in the game don't have recharge debuffs, and they're all generally useful for various reasons.

Personally, I see Entangling as a source of damage mitigation. Whether it debuffs anything at all or not, it's still capable of keeping a foe at a distance, and distance = ranged attacks. That's generally a 50% reduction (or better) in the damage a mob can inflict, since mob ranged attacks are almost always weaker than mob melee attacks.

I see value in Entangling. It keeps my squaw alive.

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|Buff/Debuff Value|
|Slow. . . . 95.7%|

Also doing it on Ice and Oil Slick, and if I had a Slow in Entangling, I bet it'd do it there, too.

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And as we all know, the only Slow you can enhance the debuff on is Runspeed and Flyspeed. Jump-Speed and -Recharge can only be affected by stacking the Debuffs... and usually only from multiple sources which for the most part, totally breaks all slow powers against anyone with Hasten and Superleap in PvP.... just like -DMG debuffs are worthless against most damage dealers.

So naturally... Castle... the Solution to weak slows in PvP is to cut their recharge-time in half again (or whatever it's original value was during Issue-5's Test-Period before it was Nerfed) and ensure that it stacks from the same source.

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Uh...

The problem here is that recharge enhancements are being displayed incorrectly in the enhancement value tooltips. Please don't confuse _Castle_ any more than he already was. We just want the tooltip display fixed at the moment, really.

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Now... not to boast, but I feel confident to say I am a good player. However, do the devs want me to roll a brand new TA defender, controller, or MM, and level them up to a "respectable" level in short order?

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Actually, the better way to test the set is to start at the higher levels (run 45+ missions and fight some AVs), then exemp down to the lowest levels and run some missions.

Individual testing with TAs of varying levels would also be good, to get information on how it performs across the level spread. But starting at two points in the game when defenders can make the most difference will show the most pronounced effects.

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but when people put it side by side with kinetics, dark, etc, it clearly IS underperforming...

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That's why we need to do just what we've discussed, run one mission several times (once with no defender, once with TA, once with Dark, once with Rad, once with Kin, etc.) and post results. Mission completion times, general team conditions (health, endurance), teammates' commentary on the difficulty or ease of the missions, number of teammate defeats, anything we can call "information" that can be compared across several different runs.

I know TA needs buffs. You know TA needs buffs. Even the developers know TA needs buffs. But what each party thinks may need a buff, the other party may disagree. We also don't know exactly why some things have remained at the levels they've been set to, such as the accuracy debuff in Flash Arrow. Is there some potential exploit that we don't know about, thus keeping it low?

Hard data will give the developers something real to work with. Does TA need -regen? I certainly believe it does, having experienced end-game content (AV combat) as the sole defender on a team, but I don't expect them to make such a change without seeing why the set needs it, then take the time to test it themselves and find ways it might be exploitable or problematic.

They want data, not observations and feelings. They need actual, verifiable numbers, not suggestions. So we give them what they want, and I think once they've had time to look everything over and figure out how to best give us what the set needs, we'll see some results. Maybe not many more changes in this issue, but the next one, or a patch in between.

People, before we make any more suggestions on how TA needs improvement, let's get some more testing done on both the test and live servers. We need actual numbers and verifiable, repeatable conclusions to show what deficiencies still exist and how they can be shored up.

The developers know we still consider it to be underperforming. Now let's show them how and why. We aren't going to get anything accomplished with suggestions and theories.

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Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.

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It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.

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That's sort of what I meant. -Recharge is a 'Slow' which is the same vernacular used for -RunSpeed or -FlySpeed. All three will show in the enhancement tool tip as 'Slow' and if all three are present all three are displayed.

As far as the Accuracy goes, I've not looked into that one, but I imagine it's the same sort of thing.

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It's not -recharge that's showing up as slow. It's +recharge. As in, slot a recharge SO in Glue Arrow and it shows "+33% Slow".

I'm looking at my enhancement screen for Dancing Hawk's 50 copy on the test server right now. I have Glue Arrow slotted with 3 Recharge Reduction SOs and nothing else (meaning, i have no Slow enhancements, nor even the slots to place them in). The tooltip says...

|Buff/Debuff Value|
|Slow. . . . 95.7%|

Also doing it on Ice and Oil Slick, and if I had a Slow in Entangling, I bet it'd do it there, too.

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Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.

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It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.

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PvE testing shows Acid Arrow still at 20%. Maybe it's some messed up PvP thing?

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Acid Arrow has a larger debuff in PvP than in PvE, at least for Defenders. Controllers and Mastermind PVE & PVP values match.

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O_O

>.>

<.<

*tip-toes into Siren's Call*

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere, stalkerstalkerstalker...

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Still waiting to get an explanation as to why Blazing Arrow could miss the target 3 times in a row, with 2 Nucleolus and Tactics... this is directly violating the streakbreaker's supposed behavior.

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My understanding of StreakBreaker is that it will force a miss after 10 hits in a row.

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Backwards. The streakbreaker never forces misses, only hits. It's dependant on the final accuracy, and above 90%, only the streakbreaker forces a hit after a single miss. The only caveat is that it's reset if you switch to an attack with a different accuracy, so if you switch attacks repeatedly and they each have even a 0.01 variation in accuracy, or a buff wears off, etc., the streakbreaker counts each attack seperately and independantly, which could allow for multiple misses in a row.

So missing the Oil Slick target, when not attacking anything else or using an AoE/cone, and not switching to a different attack, and with the inherant base 1.16 accuracy of Blazing Arrow, the buff from Tactics, and 2 Nucleolus in the attack, should literally never happen. There are only 3 possible reasons this could happen - broken streakbreaker (testing doesn't indicate this), broken Blazing Arrow (testing doesn't indicate this), or broken Oil Slick (queue the little dinging noise).

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One of the things I'd absolutely love to do is run a mission with only one defender, a TA/; then run the same mission with the same people, but have the TA/ bring one of his/her other debuffing defenders (Storm/, Dark/, or Rad/) and run the mission again for comparison. Yeah, I know it's outside of the scope of this thread, but I'd like to do it anyway.

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This is exactly what I've been trying to organize with Carl and Sons, and any of the coalitioned members, but everyone's busy playing with their IoPs and raiding each other and blah blah blah. I've got a 42 Dark/Dark/Psi that would be perfect for this test (NOTHING is slotted for tohit debuff, it's all base, so she'd be ideal for comparing basic capabilities). I can also contribute a 50 Inv/SS tank who's reliant on defender support (no Unstoppable) if we need that instead, let someone else do the defender comparison.

Let's put something together! This weekend, in fact!

Kenja, Screwy, it turned out that testing in BB or Siren's would've been impossible. There's something about exemping down that causes SOs to drop below SO value, so the results in the PvP zones would've been incorrect. You didn't miss much.

We did, however, go into the arena and do some extensive testing of most of TA, in addition to a few other things. Everyone should express his/her gratitude to Soul_System and the players of Bluff and Sgt. Scorpion. Nothing would've been accomplished without the patience, dedication, determination, and clarity of mind of these three. I was little more than a minor participant in this, overall. These three did most of the work.

Also, let me repeat that these tests were conducted in the arena. Some of the powers tested will likely have stronger or different effects in PvE. Keep this in mind, please, for any future discussion. We do need to take more time to determine what differentiations exist between TA in PvP and TA in PvE, but the arena results are, all things considered, a very good beginning.

To begin, we tested and confirmed that there is a 10% (0.1) recharge debuff in Entangling Arrow. Testing the speed debuff was impossible, due to none of us having Combat Jumping or Stimulant, but we see no reason to believe it's not the 10% (0.1) that _Castle_ stated it to be.

The speed debuff in Ice Arrow was not tested, but we did determine that it has a 10% (0.1) recharge debuff, like Entangling Arrow. Considering this, and the text that states that Ice Arrow slows what it doesn't hold, we're confident that it also has a 10% (0.1) -speed.

Glue Arrow turned out to have many surprises for us. To begin, the -recharge is 25% (0.25). We also tested the actual slow effect, but don't have a percentage or numerical scale to gauge by, so I'll explain the results instead. With a single Glue patch down, unbuffed movement speed is drastically slowed, but Sprint+Swift easily overcomes much of the speed penalty. I was able to run circles around the other testers without feeling like I'd lost all that much speed, with Swift 2 slotted and Sprint only having 1 run enhancement (a Microfilament HO). We were also incapable of testing the -fly component, but I did verify that the -jump was working. Furthermore... Glue has an interrupt component! We were unable to fire off Ranged Shot while Glue was active, and Soul_System could only get Aid Self to activate by draining at least 1/3rd of his endurance in failed attempts. Bluff attempted and failed several Teleport Foes. Note, however, that none of these had Interrupt Reduction SOs slotted. Also, the interruptions only occured while in the original Glue AoE. Leaving the Glue, though still debuffed by it, I was able to fire off Ranged Shot without any issues. We also found that Glue's interrupt "stacks" with other powers or applications of Glue (did not test stacked Glues from single person, none of us had enough recharge slotted to have it up that quickly), making it even harder to fire off an interruptable power.

Disruption, we found, was also causing interruptions. The pulses were infrequent, to the point of allowing Ranged Shot, Aid Self, and Teleport Foe to work most of the time without interruption, but a few interruptions did occur in testing. Additionally, Disruption was verified as having a 20% resistance debuff.

It starts to get interesting here. We decided to test Oil Slick next, and discovered that IT was interrupting as well. This was without igniting the slick, and the interruptions were extremely frequent. Soul_System drained his entire endurance bar repeatedly in attempts to get Aid Self to activate, without a single success. Teleport Foe and Ranged Shot were impossible to activate as well. The slow in Oil Slick was difficult to test due to the knockdown (appears to be a bit less than Glue), but we could test whether it had a -recharge also applied. It doesn't, there is no recharge debuff in Oil Slick. One other thing that we did find, though, was that when Oil Slick was stacked with Glue, the speed debuff was extreme. Even with Swift and Sprint, I was practically immobilized.

Next item on the list was Acid Arrow. The tests for this came almost accidentally. Soul_System was using Acid Arrow as a gauge to determine recharge times, and decided to shoot me (something many have wished someone would do) a few times. That was when we found that Acid's -res is 30%, not 20%. When Soul_System hit me with Acid + Ranged, he did a total of 209 damage to me. With only Ranged Shot, the damage was 161 points. 161 * 1.3 = 209. Bluff confirmed this with the same method, Acid + an attack versus same attack with no Acid. Yes, we were just as surprised, and delighted.

The sleep in Poison Gas is definitely working as AoE now. Not at 100%, which meets our expectations, but this aspect does seem to function properly at the statistic given now. Testing the debuff was inconclusive, due to the way damage debuffs work in PvP. This power needs more investigation.

Now here's where it gets really interesting. EMP Arrow. To begin, we found that unslotted, for a level 35 TA/A, EMP appears to have a duration of 15 seconds in PvP. At level 50, the duration with 3 Endoplasms slotted was 29 seconds. Yes, a full 29 seconds of hold time, unsuppressed. With Power Build Up and 3 Endoplasms, the duration was 50 seconds. Vanguard + 3 Endoplasms = 45 seconds. And PBU+Vanguard+3 Endoplasms was 1 full minute. This reveals several interesting things about all of these powers. First, in PvP, EMP appears to have a base duration of 15 seconds, regardless of level. Second, Vanguard and PBU appear to buff base duration, not enhanced duration, but also, the duration increase from enhancements is added after PBU/Vanguard's buff. Third, based on this information, Vanguard appears to double the duration of the status effects it works on, but PBU doubles durations, then adds another 33%! Fourth, we found that there may be a hard cap or a scale of diminishing returns for status effects in PvP - using PBU and Vanguard before firing EMP only resulted in a 1 minute hold. We were expecting a longer hold duration from using both buffs, 1 minute and 20 seconds according to the behaviors of both buff powers, or longer if they acted as a stacking buff, but in every test, the holds ended at 1 minute. Finally, EMP doesn't seem to be suppressed in PvP. The holds never appeared to be prematurely broken, like suppression does for Ice Arrow, instead lasting a measurable and reproducable length each time. This may be related to the long recharge time, or critical holds, or the fact that I was only using EMP instead of attempting to stack holds with Ice.

We also tested PBU and Vanguard on -speed, -recharge, and -regen. None of these debuffs are affected by PBU or Vanguard. The -regen in EMP, we discovered, is a total halt to regen for 15 seconds, unbuffable. This is still a sore point, given that EMP is up so infrequently and -regen is so vital to EB/AV/Giant Monster combat. Please either remove the -regen in EMP and put it in Poison Gas or Acid, or just add -regen to Poison Gas or Acid. As long as this set lacks a usable and sustainable -regen, it's going to be problematic in high level play. Especially with the new AV buffs. Is TA to be defined as the only defender set that shouldn't be taken to AV combat? Seems rather undefendery.

Now, on to the oddities.

It appears that status effects of different types are cancelled in PvP. That is to say, if Player A uses a hold on Player B, then Player C uses a Disorient on Player B, the Disorient will be ignored for the duration of the hold, then end without any effect due to suppression. Player B will get a Disorient icon, but no Stunned message, even after the hold ends or is suppressed. So, apparently, status effect suppression is an across-the-board system that suppresses ALL status effects active or used after the first one is applied. By the time the suppression lifts, the duration of nearly all status effects would be over, resulting in absolutely no effect overall.

Glue, Poison Gas, Oil Slick, EMP, and I believe even Disruption are all getting "pet buff" graphics. Soul_System's Glue repeatedly showed a Hasten buff. My uses of Oil, Glue, EMP, and Poison Gas all showed Assault and Tactics graphics (i was running both in these instances), as well as PBU and Vanguard when I was using them (it was almost neat, shooting a rainbow EMP). I didn't get a close look at Disruption, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also displaying "pet buff" graphics. Are these powers being buffed? If not, is it possible to fix them so they don't display these graphics, as it could be VERY confusing for new TA players?

Poison Gas was creating no debuff icons when it was used on us. It would probably be fair to request that a debuff notification be added, since it can affect PvP players without their knowledge if there isn't a debuff icon.

Ranged Shot is now showing 2 "reach behind and draw arrow" animations before firing. Blazing Arrow sounds like it's being fired twice when it leaves the bow.

Oil Slick still isn't at 100% ignition. I personally don't have a problem with it not being 100%, but that's more of a fear of an eventual nerf. But if it is intended to have a 100% ignition rate, it's still in need of some work.

Still waiting to get an explanation as to why Blazing Arrow could miss the target 3 times in a row, with 2 Nucleolus and Tactics... this is directly violating the streakbreaker's supposed behavior.

At level 35, with the same slotting (and i'm presuming the same level SOs), Soul_System stated that Ranged Shot was doing only doing 10 points of damage beyond Blazing Arrow's 151 points. This is barely a 6% difference between a snipe and a high damage attack. Is there a damage buff in Ranged Shot's future, or will Blazing Arrow be reduced?

That's it for now. If I missed anything, Soul, Bluff, and/or Sgt. Scorpion can add to this or correct any mistakes I made.

*yawns and stumbles back into the Lumiverse for a nap*

Still waiting for more people. Trickshooter is with me, Kenja and ScrewySquirrel are on.

We're starting in Steel to compare notes and figure out how to do a reasonable test with the heroes (due to level variations and inability of some to access some zones), then moving into Siren's to meet up with the villainous TAs.

Get in it.

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How does everyone feel about getting together Wednesday night for some testing? Say, between 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. EST? That should give any west-coasters time to get home, and still be early enough for those of us on the east coast. Yesno? Noyes? Fishinpinktutus?

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Fishinpinktutus!

Sure, Trickshooter can be there.

P.S. Oil Slick Arrow is still not lighting everytime with this latest patch, though I'm not sure if it's supposed to, the patch notes seem to suggest simply a higher chance of it.

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I'm here now with Kyudo Kat (my lowbie TA/A -- lvl 9) where are you guys?

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Fighting lag. 2 steps forward, 5 steps back. Restarting to try to get it under control. When I log back in, I'm heading for Steel Canyon, outside the Siren's exit. As good a place as any to meet up to start out.

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Just remember the flip side. /TA MMs. They get to debuff you, and continue attacking while they do it.

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That's why I like fighting the other ATs in Siren's. It's more of a challenge, less binary. Brutes and stalkers, you either hit them first with your negator, or they kill you in short order.

But corrupters, dominators, and masterminds... those are the real challenges. Will I be able to get close enough to fire off Ice Arrow first, or will they spot me and hit me with their own mez? Will my debuff cut the incoming damage enough to let me outlast them, or will they get to me first? How do I counter them without being someone who relies on inspirations for every fight (i don't feel they should be removed from PvP, only that it's more challenging and enjoyable to accomplish something without them, as well as prefering to save inspirations for real emergencies, when they could prevent debt or help save a team at a critical moment)?

I'd take a fight with a mastermind over a fight with a stalker any day. At least the mastermind is likely to stick around for more than 3 seconds once I hit him/her the first time.

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Anyway, I can say without a doubt that the Glue Arrow changes now make it possibly the most annoying power in PvP for enemies. Can you believe I almost defeated a Stalker and Brute at the sametime using Glue Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow?

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You'll start getting them. It took me a few weeks of irregular visits to Siren's and trying various tactics, but eventually, I started getting more than free hospital tokens.

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The Stalker eventually reached the edge of the patch and hopped away, but the Brute... can't SMASH what you can't catch, I guess.

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Glue is even worse for brutes. -recharge = bye-bye Fury. And no Fury = not much of a threat. They can still stun/hold you, briefly, but the -recharge and lack of Fury just takes the wind right out of their sails. Plus, your attacks don't come fast enough to help them build up Fury, either!

TA/A is one of the worst sets for either stalkers or brutes to face. Even without the recent fixes. Anti-Hide with Acid and Blazing, anti-Fury with Glue and Oil Slick.

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20%? Ahh ty, I believe lum has direct confirmation of the 25% def debuff. I just know numbers i see on these boards.

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25% defense debuff, straight from the tippety tappety fingers of _Castle_.

How does everyone feel about getting together Wednesday night for some testing? Say, between 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. EST? That should give any west-coasters time to get home, and still be early enough for those of us on the east coast. Yesno? Noyes? Fishinpinktutus?

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* Changed the timing on the Oil Slick Ignite effect to improve its chances of affecting the Oil Slick.
* Glue Arrow now has a -Fly component. For real this time.
* Fixed an issue where Entangling arrow could be escaped, despite its -Fly component by jumping/flying out of it.


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Ahem, Glue now has -fly.

We are definately getting there folks. Now, just a larger AoE on Acid and we are going to be seeing more people picking up TA Defenders.

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I'll trade in the AoE increase for a regen debuff.

We should also get a group of TA players together on the test server some time to test some of these changes together. Finding mobs to test everything that's changing is difficult. It'd be much easier in the Arena or a PvP zone, where we could compare notes on the fly and gather data more easily (such as the new -fly in Glue).

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I mean come on...what would Manticore say about this

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Nothing. Manticore's an Archery/TA blaster.

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I would hate to see only the top 5 SGs/VGs on a server being able to compete in base raids because only they had the numbers/voice chat necessary to defeat it.

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That's one of the keys right there. Voice chat. Granted, it's easy enough for practially anyone to get Vent or TS and just listen in, but on the other hand, should voice chat be required? Since I wasn't on Vent, I had trouble keeping up with everything that was going on during the CaS test. Many of the people who showed up were either listening to Vent or had done the IoP trial before and had at least a general idea of what to expect, where to go, what to do, etc.

I felt more than a little lost, more than once, but I did, barely, manage to keep up despite not having access to instantly spoken directions and clarifications.

And I think that's right where it should be. If the difficulty were increased to a point of requiring vocal coordination, I don't see this, or base raids, ever being widely successful or enjoyable. Voice comms may be relatively common, but they aren't universal, aren't included with the games (which would give people who don't know about Vent or TS something to start with, or incentive for others who just don't like using voice chat), and shouldn't be factored into the difficulty.

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I was part of Fashion's successful run.

I think I got something like 150k debt relief for taking down Rularuu on a level 50 controller

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57k for Electron Girl.