Luminara

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Normally it tells you in the description if it can be used on other allies, excluding yourself or if it can be used on self.

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Well how do you cast it on yourself if it's usable on yourself? I can't figure out how to target myself in the first place.

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Just activate it. Buffs which affect your character aren't targeted. Locate the power in your tray and click it or press the corresponding numeric key (1 through 0), it'll do whatever it does without any further input (unless it can be interrupted, like Aid Self, in which case, don't move for a few seconds).

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Still think Empathy/Assault Rifle will be weaker. It doesn't even get Aim.

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KB/KD in many powers, an Avoid and a Stun that comes much earlier than Stunning Shot. Better survivability in AR, he's not going to suffer as much.

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Level 12 Radiation Defender throws up RI on a group of baddies and proceeds to stand in the middle of them and laugh. Their ACC is lowered

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Their ToHit is reduced. The only thing that reduces Accuracy is Elusivity.

Critters don't get Elusivity.

</nitpick>

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much more than the baseline DEF of the FF Dispersion Bubble.

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Lieutenants have 10% resistance to -ToHit. Bosses have 20% resistance to -ToHit. AVs (and EBs scaled down from AVs) resist ToHit by scaled amounts, from a minimum of 60% to a maximum of 87%.

Additionally, all critters gain resist debuffs by level. A +1 critter, regardless of rank, has 10% resistance to all debuffs. A +2 critter resists debuffs by 20%. +3, 35%. +4, 52%. +5, 70%. Et cetera.

That's the price debuffs pay for being usable for solo play. That seemingly strong -ToHit becomes progressively less impressive the higher the rank and/or level of the foe(s). Buffs only have to deal with corresponding buffs on the enemies, like the scaling +Acc that critters get for being +X to the character, and buffs pay for that by being more limited for solo use.

Furthermore, that RI that you used as an example provides 0 protection versus status effects. Darkest Night, 0 protection versus status effects. None of the ToHit debuffs protect against status effects. One Hold or Stun and it's toggled off, providing zero -ToHit. That's another penalty debuffs face, very few of them are "sticky", and the ones which are tend to be in powersets with no self buffs and significantly weaker than buffs which perform the same function. The defender using Dispersion Bubble isn't dealing with that, he/she is really only vulnerable to Sleeps, and his/her protection turns back on by itself when the Sleep is broken or expires.

So yes, Dispersion Bubble has a lower base Defense than the -ToHit provided by a few debuffs in other defender primaries. It also isn't double-dinged, it doesn't drop as easily or as often and it resumes full function much more quickly and with less input than the debuffs.

And the FF isn't limited to only Dispersion Bubble for personal safety, he/she does have other powers which can be used solo, potentially more effectively than all of the -ToHit in any debuffing primary. After all, a critter which can't stay on its feet can't shoot/hit at all and therefore is even less of a risk than a critter which is still attacking but limited to a 5% chance to hit.

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Also you mentioned how it would not be fair for a FF defender to have greater self defense than a SR scrapper. Well that would be a valid argument IF they also dealt the same amount of damage in a fight. Which they dont.

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It's a valid point regardless of how much damage is dealt because the scrapper doesn't provide protection to anyone but him/herself. The scrapper won't turn seven other players into juggernauts of destruction, but the defender will. It goes back to that "force multiplier" thing that's been pointed out numerous times in this thread. A defender, alone, is capable, but usually not impressive. Two defenders together can be safer than and almost as deadly as two scrappers. Four defenders together are as powerful as any team of eight scrappers. Eight defenders... well, you'd need two or three teams of scrappers and voice comms to match their speed and survivability.

That's why we have limits on what we can do as defenders. The only way those limits are ever going to be altered is if the very nature of how buffs and debuffs work is altered, meaning, no more stacking, no more force multiplying and no more RO-style all defender steamroller teams brutally destroying AVs in 17s flat.

So don't expect to see defenders getting an increase to their damage scales. Don't expect to see defender blasts or APP attacks buffed. It's not going to happen because defenders are the most potentially powerful AT in the game already.

My vote goes to Emp/Archery.

Before level 26, you have exactly one source of damage mitigation, Healing Aura. And even after level 26, you're still restricted to HA for the period of time when Regen Aura is down. So you'll be burning through endurance like a madman, trying to repair the incoming damage.

Only damage buff - Aim.

Only status effect - Stunning Shot (at level 35).

No Defense, no Resistance, no -Damage, no -ToHit, no -Recharge, no Immobilize or -RunSpeed... just an endurance hungry PBAoE heal, Explosive Arrow's unreliable KB, Regen Aura's +Regen (with an up time of less than 50%, likely) and a single-target Stun if you make it to 35.

That's about as tough as I can imagine, without resorting to MAN builds.

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Remember to keep your green onions and garlic (that might sprout) in the fridge, k?

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I don't have to worry about that. My cat's fetish is fresh fruit (he adores plums and apples) and pistachios. He won't even look at vegetables or tubers.

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Slotting Siphon Power with a single Recharge Reduction training enhancement and using Siphon Speed gets the recharge time of Siphon Power down to just above 15s. So by level 6, one can have the -Damage applied to two foes within 15s. That leaves only two of your theoretical four enemies at full damage.


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And you still have made a difference of only 12%!

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And you're still only level 6! Minions are defeated by sneezes at level 6!

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Do defenders get only 12% fewer hitpoints than scrappers? Of course not.

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There isn't much difference in HP at level 6.

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I'm not claiming Defenders should have the same hitpoints as scrappers; I'm just saying that the siphon power debuff doesn't equalize things.

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But you're not equalizing the playing field with SP alone. You've also got SSpeed's -Recharge and -RunSpeed, Transfusion's heal, potentially Repel and the secondary effects of your blasts as well as the status effects in the blast set, and this is still only level 6. More damage mitigatory tools become available as the defender levels up, more slots and better enhancements become available, the powers improve, etc.

No AT, no powerset, is defined by a single power. No defender with an ounce of sense relies on a single power to mitigate damage. The ATs and powersets exist as they do to provide every player, regardless of which AT or powersets they choose, with the necessary tools for survival and progression.

Your narrow outlook on Kinetics based on your experience four years ago isn't relevant, or even correct, today.

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[Skipping lots of stuff regarding siphon speed. Sure I use it now, but it just wasn't an option before issue whatever.]

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Again, how a defender plays today is not related, in any way, to how you played your defender before I4.

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Combat is not a static event, and Kinetics is not a static powerset. Any Kin defender can maintain multiple -Dam (and -Recharge/RunSpeed) debuffs on multiple targets and survive that first 8-15s of combat without any trouble, unless they're scrapperlocking.


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You can't survive the first 15s of combat solo in many situations: any of a number of EBs will crank you in that time;

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I survive the first 8-15s against AVs and GMs with my Kinetics scrapper.

So who, exactly, do you believe can't?

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any mezzers will mezz you in that time;

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Break Free. Mez the mezzer first. Repel them. Use a Luck or two. Play tactically, pulling enemies until you can approach the mezzer safely. Options abound.

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depending on level and foe, 4 +1 minions can bump you off in that time.

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I got stuck with a spawn of eight +1 Clockwork with my TA/A pre-I7, right in the middle of a mission, and I defeated the entire spawn without being defeated myself. No Flash Arrow, no PGA, not even Ice Arrow, just Glue and Entangling, and diddly squat from my blast set to help ensure my safety. Surely a Kin can manage a spawn half that size.

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These aren't the majority, but they constitute a significant minority.

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No, they really aren't. EBs aren't common enough to be considered a significant minority, you do have options to prevent being mezzed or shrug it off, and unless you're playing at the second or fourth difficulty setting, you aren't going to be fighting spawns of four or more +1 minions (that was changed a loooooooooong time ago). The only applicable argument is the mezzer statement, and that's a fact of life for every defender, not just Kins. You deal with it or you die, it's that simple.

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You can attack 5 times in 10s with no Recharge Reduction enhancements or global recharge boosts (including SSpeed).
[analysis omitted]


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I was thinking of real life play, not an optimized attack chain. Unless your foes are locked down somehow, or you are on a team, you don't get to spam fast attacks in a row - it's asking for a trip to the hospital.

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So what is it you think real players are doing for those 10s? /e dance while waiting for the debuffs to recharge?

You can attack 5 times in 10s. You've already used your debuffs at the beginning of combat, so you really have no reason at all not to attack. If you aren't using your attacks as frequently as possible and interspersing them with debuffs, that is asking for a hospital trip.

That's real life play.

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As you say, Kinetics is a dynamic set. And damage mitigation is found in attacks like TK and WD, not the fast low level attacks.

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Mental Blast - 37.5% -Recharge, 36.1 base damage
Subdue - mag 3 Immobilize, 47.7 base damage
Psychic Scream - 62.5% -Recharge, 37.6 base damage

Damage (defeated foes deal 0 damage), enough -Recharge to floor attack speed, an Immobilize which prevents foes from closing to melee range (and thereby restricts them to using only ranged attacks, which, again, typically deal less damage than melee attacks), I'm seeing quite a bit of mitigation in the low level attacks.

If you really want to make an argument like that, pick a secondary which offers little or no mitigation. Psy isn't it.

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And please, spare the personal barbs.

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Of course it has to be personal, because pointing out the flaws in your approach, analysis and, well, everything you've said couldn't possibly be an objective observation. Nope. If it reflects poorly on you, it must be personal, because you're a flawless Kin player and an unparalleled debater and master of game mechanics/numbers.

Right?

Right?

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Have you compared solo kin play with solo scrapper play? Are you really saying that they are comparable experiences?

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It's not a comparison I choose to make because there is no performance metric applicable to both of them, beyond "Mission X, *.* minutes, go", and that's really not a good metric because it ignores every other variable, things like total damage taken, number of inspirations used, number of times defeated, levels of the characters, levels of the foes, whether any of the foes spawned at higher levels for one character and not the other, tiers of foes spawned for each character, etc.

I have soloed a Kin to 50. I have soloed a scrapper to the mid 20s. They are wildly different play styles despite my personal choice to limit my Kin to pool melee attacks. But I also did take that Kin up against Terra and walk away a winner, undefeated. And I did take that Kin up against Adamastor and call it a draw after ten minutes of trading punches. So I know the survivability is there, comparable to what a scrapper experiences.

The damage output is where you find it, or how you make it. I don't expect an average defender build to solo as quickly as an average scrapper build, but I do expect a carefully planned, well slotted defender build to outperform an average scrapper build, and my experience playing defenders bears out that expectation quite well. Similarly, I don't expect any, except perhaps for a rare few, defender builds to match the performance of a carefully planned, well slotted "min/max" scrapper build, because that's just not realistic. But even then, a good defender can do extremely well in comparison to a good scrapper. I have also seen that with my own eyes.

It wasn't even two weeks ago that an in-game friend remarked, "I thought you were supposed to be a defender. You're killing stuff faster than me!". A few months ago, I was teamed with another in-game friend, again when I was playing a defender, and he got pasted. I cleaned up the spawn while he lie on the ground and commented about how impressive a good defender could be... and this was a Rad/Energy defender, NOT an optimal combination!

So I don't waste my time comparing defender damage or survivability to that of other ATs, because there is no valid comparison that can be made. All defenders are capable of soloing safely and reasonably quickly, if the player chooses to use the tools available to him/her. Whether they solo as "well" as scrappers is a pointless, meaningless distinction. Only a scrapper solos as "well" as a scrapper. Or as poorly, in some cases.

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I'm not even saying here that they should be; I'm just amazed that you won't acknowledge this.

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There's nothing to acknowledge. Comparing defenders to scrappers is akin to comparing pineapples to potatoes.

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I had heard that this was an uncommon and somewhat strategic route to take for being a MM. It seems like it will be good, and I do enjoy it (I'm only lvl 4 though lol). But I was wondering how it will be throughout the game (solo), end-game and on teams?

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Slow start, picks up with Protector Bots, picks up again with Acid, Assault Bot and Disruption, then takes off at a ridiculous pace with the second upgrade.

Bubbawheat has a guide for Bots/TA.

Fire/TA and Dark/TA.

Fire/TA for stacked Slows with Glue and Rain of Fire, a nice little hellish maelstrom that's about half as deadly as OSA, but usable three times as frequently.

Dark/TA for cone spam with five damage procs and absolutely disgusting amounts of -ToHit stacked with Ranged defense.

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Earth Trick Arrow Controller

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Excellent damage mitigation and better damage output (due to Acid and Disruption) than most other combinations which aren't Fire/* or Ill/*.

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I'm not sure weakest applies, but how about most awkward?

I would think a Trick Arrow/Electric Defender would be pretty awkward, with all the redraw, and with the love-it-or-be-bored-by-it nature of Electric Blast.

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What redraw? Use TA powers, then use secondary attacks. Only way there'd be redraw would be if the player was deliberately alternating between TA and secondary on every other power activation, and that wouldn't be something exclusive to TA/* or */TA, that player would encounter the problem with any weapon set.

TA/Elec should actually be a good combination. The damage won't be as spectacular as TA/Sonic for single-target, or TA/Dark for AoE, but it would have a solid mix of mitigation, utility, single-target and AoE.

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That wasn't the experience I had, and I was playing a Kin without using the blasts, relying on Flurry and Air Superiority instead. I soloed Terra and fought Adamastor to a standstill, with Kinetics, AS and Flurry.

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25%, stacking, isn't sufficient? Getting it up to 75-90% (10% being the floor) isn't enough?


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It's of course 25% (or less) on one target. One on one, if the opponent does not have a strong resist to its damage type, the siphon power debuff is effective. For a spawn of 3 to 5, it simply doesn't make much difference. With four opponents, for example, one application reduces incoming damage by a whopping 6%.

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Slotting Siphon Power with a single Recharge Reduction training enhancement and using Siphon Speed gets the recharge time of Siphon Power down to just above 15s. So by level 6, one can have the -Damage applied to two foes within 15s. That leaves only two of your theoretical four enemies at full damage. It takes 5-7s, even for defenders, to defeat a single +0 minion in the early levels, which means you can defeat the two enemies without debuffs before the first debuff you applied expires.

Moving out of the training enhancement levels, slot Siphon Power and Siphon Speed with two Recharge Reduction DOs apiece. Now SP is recharging in 13s and SSpeed is recharging in 39s, you've got double-stacked SSpeed for 1/3rd of every minute and SP is recharging in 11.5s in that window, 13s outside of the window. Similarly, one is slotting the attacks to deal more damage and recharge more quickly, as well as utilizing the +Damage obtained from stacked SPs.

With SOs, SSpeed is effectively permanently double-stacked (25.5s recharge, three Recharge Reduction SOs) and SP's recharge time is below 10s (8.51s, three Recharge Reduction SOs). Now one is capable of reducing the damage on three enemies before the first use of SP expires.

And none of that takes into account the fact that you're also imposing 20% -Recharge and 62.5% -RunSpeed with every use of SSpeed, which also improves survivability by delaying the enemies' ranged attacks and assisting in preventing melee attackers from reaching you.

So the only points at which you'll deal a single foe debuffed and three or more not debuffed is before level 6 or within the first 10s of combat.

Combat is not a static event, and Kinetics is not a static powerset. Any Kin defender can maintain multiple -Dam (and -Recharge/RunSpeed) debuffs on multiple targets and survive that first 8-15s of combat without any trouble, unless they're scrapperlocking.

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and doesn't last long,

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30s isn't long enough? The recharge time is only 20s...


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No, not really. In 30s, might get off five or six attacks (before global recharge bonuses from IOs start helping at high levels.)

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You can attack 5 times in 10s with no Recharge Reduction enhancements or global recharge boosts (including SSpeed).

<ul type="square">Psychic Blast by level 10:[*]Mental Blast - 1.67s animation, 4s recharge[*]Subdue - 1.67s animation, 6s recharge[*]Psychic Scream - 2.67s animation, 12s recharge[/list]
MB/Subdue/wait 0.66s for power recharge/MB/PS/Subdue = 10.01s total.

That's possible at level 10, without using SSpeed or slotting Recharge Reduction. Not even using Hasten. 10s by level 10 to use 5 attacks.

Opening with Siphon Power and using it again once in the 30s duration, you can still use 13-14 attacks within that 30s time frame. Adding Siphon Speed to the equation means you should be approaching animation time saturation, meaning your rate of attack is determined by your total animation time, not by recharge time.

And that's still without developing an optimized attack chain, or using Recharge Reduction enhancements, or even beyond level 10. The higher your level is, the more attacks and slots you have available and the more efficient your attack chain becomes.

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With a 25% damage boost, that's equivalent to six to eight attacks. By doing something else other than siphon power, the difference is at best one extra attack. Attacking early with a damage attack mitigates damage faster (foes reduce in number more quickly) and allows side effects to help mitigate damage too (eg TK knockback or WD sleep.)

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I, and the facts, disagree with your conclusion.

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Honestly, give it a try. If you have 3 or more opponents soloing with kinetics, I find Siphon Power not really worth the effort, unless I get to use APP powers like Dominate or Mass Hyp. to avoid the aggro.

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Go back and read my post. I have done it, with fewer attacks and less damage output, and not only does my experience dispute what you've postulated, the hard numbers which define the powers bear out what I'm saying and completely disprove what you've said.

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Playing the two were like night and day. It shouldn't be the case that Defenders, having a more interesting gameplay, should be so much less effective solo.

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That isn't the case. It never was. You chose not to utilize your powers effectively. That doesn't indicate a problem with the AT, with Kinetics or with Psychic Blast. Or, for that matter, whether or not defenders are "as good" at soloing as scrappers.

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I think it is entirely unfair to state that my experience is due to "not using my powers effectively".

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You were the one who said you didn't bother to use SP.

You were the one who said you could only attack 5-6 times in 30s.

The fault lies with you, whether you think it's "fair" or not.

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Don't think I haven't tried a variety of play styles to make my defender a better soloer.

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Apparently you didn't try any that involve attacking more frequently than once every five seconds, or using any of the Kinetics powers other than Transfusion or FS. If you had, you wouldn't have been limited to 5-6 attacks in a 30s time span, or been limited to having one foe debuffed in a 30s time span, or had such lamentable survivability issues.

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Have you compared solo kin defending with scrapping? I'd be amazed if you found the former in any way comparable with the latter in terms of speed or survivability.

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You imposed unnecessary restrictions on yourself, like not using your primary powers, and limiting yourself to one attack every 5-6s. Remove those restrictions and you won't find the difference so profound, or amazing.

The ToHit Buff graphic doesn't circle around characters correctly. The focal point is offset, not properly centered.

And it's been driving me up a wall for a long, long time. Years. I've /bugged it, I've asked Castle to ask you to fix it (twice, i believe), it's gotten to the point that I delete Insights and refuse to use ToHit Buff toggles.

Please to be fixerating the glowy balls. Soon.

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I should also tell you guys that, as for previous MMOs, I've always seemed to like the Hybrid class. Jack of all trades, master of none. So if there are any powerset combos like that in the game, please list it. Thanks.

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Trick Arrows.

TA/Dark, TA/Sonic, TA/Rad, any */TA controller combination, Bots/TA, just do it. You'll have access to almost everything in the game. Controls, debuffs, you can pick up pool power buffs if you like, damage is good for both you and your teammates, and you're never tied to teams in order to progress, you can solo quite nicely.

Go. Find the TA within you and let it out.

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Wah.

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I second this mockery of "pain"!

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Third. Motion passed!

*bangs gavel*

Session adjourned!

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I have to add my two bits.

I play a kin/psy defender - first character to 50 - and a claws/regen scrapper, also at 50.

Because of timezone issues, when I get to play CoH, it's usually hard even to find a PuG, let alone a good team, so both characters have played a lot of solo content.

The defender had a real struggle. Before difficulty levels were introduced, there were multiple missions where I had to beg for assistance, because they were simply impossible, even with inspirations.

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That wasn't the experience I had, and I was playing a Kin without using the blasts, relying on Flurry and Air Superiority instead. I soloed Terra and fought Adamastor to a standstill, with Kinetics, AS and Flurry.

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Kinetics before fulcrum shift doesn't have a good self-buff (the time spent using Siphon Power is better used just hitting the opponent again; the debuff is insufficient,

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25%, stacking, isn't sufficient? Getting it up to 75-90% (10% being the floor) isn't enough?

Last time I checked, defenders did have more than 1 HP, so they shouldn't need complete damage immunity, which is the next step after 90% -Damage.

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is resisted by damage resistance,

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It's more complicated than that. Very few critters have resistance to all damage types, and resisting damage resistance is only applicable for the specific types resisted. If a critter resists Lethal damage, then it will also resist a damage debuff, but only the Lethal portion, and if that same critter uses a Smashing attack, the full debuff is applied. And as often as not, a critter with resistance to one damage type will be using a different damage type.

Furthermore, the reality of resistance is that it's usually very small amounts, especially in the lower levels. So I'm going to say "big freaking deal" if a critter has 10% Resistance to Lethal and also uses Lethal damage attacks. So it's resisting that 25% -Damage by 10%, making it 22.5% -Damage instead. Worlds aren't going to end, and a character isn't going to keel over, because of a piddling 2.5% difference.

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and doesn't last long,

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30s isn't long enough? The recharge time is only 20s...

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while the buff is not large enough for long enough to make a significant difference solo.)

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25%, stacking, which means it can be stacked up to 75-100%, isn't enough? With SOs, that puts you just ~105% under the defender damage cap... and it's not enough?

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Even after Fulcrum Shift, the damage debuff is not sufficient to significantly help solo survivability.

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It stacks with Siphon Power.

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In fact, what makes kinetics at all survivable at low to mid levels is Transfusion.

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Transfusion helps, but it really is not the sole gem in Kinetics at lower levels. Layered mitigation is much, much stronger than relying on a single form of mitigation, and Kinetics offers good layered mitigation through multiple stacking damage debuffs and a decent heal.

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Playing the two were like night and day. It shouldn't be the case that Defenders, having a more interesting gameplay, should be so much less effective solo.

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That isn't the case. It never was. You chose not to utilize your powers effectively. That doesn't indicate a problem with the AT, with Kinetics or with Psychic Blast. Or, for that matter, whether or not defenders are "as good" at soloing as scrappers.

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Mutation Booster, eh? I could see that. What Inherent Power might be fitting for such a set?

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A custom map of Paragon City/Rogue Isles in miniature.

Completely deformable.

STOMP! CRUSH! DESTROY! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!

...

I've got to stop doing that. &gt;.&lt;