Lothic

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Beef_Cake mentioned:[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I did and it worked.

1. Hero vs Hero Pentad
2. Rated
3. 30 minute timer
4. Super Heavyweight

After we won the match, we received the badge.

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As Draggynn said setting Pentad matches as "rated" does not seem to be required for them to award the badge. Since that kind of thing matters to some people that's worth pointing out. I've yet to need any of these arena matches be set to "rated" in order for the badges to drop.

Wen_Ho mentioned:
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anyone else having problems not advancing even though you win the first rounds of a swiss tourney?

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Yes we were having trouble with Swiss matches until we figured it out.

Apparently if you actually try to "play" a match for real (as in if you actually fight each other as you are technically supposed to) then the game seems to randomly decide which player will advance in the Swiss regardless of the outcome of the fight.

But if you decide amongst the 8 players who will be the designated "winner" and make sure the other 7 players just quit their matches without combat then you can reliably get the "winner" to win and get the badge.

We sent bug reports in on this assuming anyone would ever want to play these kinds of matches "for real" sometime.

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I don't recall me saying it was required, I stated what I did to get the badge and what I did that didn't award the badge. So, no rated isn't worth anything to me, but thanks for assuming

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Actually I wasn't thinking about you in particular when it comes to rated matches at all. Get over yourself.
I was adding to the information you provided for those people who worry about those kinds of things.
Your list implied the exact settings needed regardless if that was your intention or not.

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But for the record, as stated in the patch notes...

In addition to the above new badges the following ‘Weightclass’ badges will now correctly be granted to players who win a rated scheduled match!

So if this is true, then the weightclass badges are bugged in 2 aspects.

1. The match doesn't need to be rated.
2. The match doesn't need to be scheduled.

But for the other badges, I did both rated and not rated, and the outcome was the same as my previous post. Villains can not earn this badge for some reason.

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You of all people should know just how vague and unreliable 99.9% of documentation the Devs provide for this game is. That's why us badgers have to share our own real information just like this...

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I'm a DIRL and all the female characters I've built in this game so far have all been very firmly of the armor and cleats school. Why? Because they're "Bob" darned superheros! They get shot at with guns, flamethrowers, nuclear weapons and worse! It's just pragmatic. "Bikini girls with machine guns" might be a fun song but is definitely not something to guide the sartorial decisions of gals who want to be in the super business!


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Same.

I think the only scantily clad chick I have is one where I used the witch costume choices that came with the magic pack.

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It depends. If they can slow incoming projectiles to a halt without blkinking, and throw up a repulsion field at the same time to send them back from the direction they came, they don't need much more than a bikini.

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This is true, however, some of the skin choices are so revealing that I can't see how anyone could realisticaly (and yes I know it's ridiculous to use that word in a game like this) move around in them much without, you know, having a Janet-Jackson-at-the-Superbowl kinda thing.

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That is merely a distraction tactic that makes it easier to defeat your male opponents as they stare blankly at your chest with their tongue hanging out.

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Isn't that exactly how female tanks are supposed to grab and hold aggro?

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Well clearly the "need to be taken seriously" is a relatively different matter from whether or not superheroine X needs to wear "sensible" clothing or not to survive fighting crime.

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Look, if you're facin' down thugs with guns, you want to be taken seriously. If you gotta run around, high heels ain't gonna cut it. And yes, Superman and other dudes of the spandex set fail on this score just as badly as the bikini girls with machine guns set. If some ancient god, built like an olympic swimmer and barely wearing more than a laurel wreath, shows up in middle of my meth factory, my first reaction as a hardened criminal is to laugh and say, "Kill this nancy boy."

Of course, said "nancy boy" might drop 30 petatons of holy wrath on me but that still doesn't erase that first embarrassing reaction. At least Thor wears armor. As such he's taken seriously--well sort of. He probably gets a lot of "blonde surfer boy" comments.

You want the bad guys to fear you rather then stare at your "equipment" and make ribald comments.

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Actually from a pure Sun Tzu point of view of combat it's probably not a bad thing for enemies of heroes like Superman or Wonder Woman to be "distracted" by their flashy outfits because while the bad guys are busy laughing/gawking they are getting their butts beat down badly.

If I were a superheroine IRL I wouldn't care if bad guys took me seriously if I was getting the job done.

Batman has to do the "fear" thing because that's his only 'real' superpower.
Superman/Wonder Wonder could technically get away with wearing whatever they wanted.

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As a quick aside I think it was always explained that WW wore all the "American patriotic imagery" out of respect for the US flag colors Steve Trevor wore when they found him on Paradise Island. Obviously it also played into the whole "wholesome American hero" thing for kids reading the comic too.

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I'm... not sure the whole "she loses her powers when her hands are bound by a man" weakness she had when she was first introduced counts as a "wholesome" image...

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Qibble, quibble. I was just talking about the origin of the flag-colored outfit.

The fact that the creator of the Wonder Woman character was into bondage IRL, had as mistress who wore big bracelets and was the guy who actually invented the modern polygraph lie detector (think Lasso of Truth) are merely incidental to this discussion.

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True, but the same could be said of superman or any male hero. Coloured spandex is hardly pragmatic, and its certainly no les garish, and rediculous Everyone's favorite amazon and her star-spangled bathing suit (its never been clear to me why an amazon princess would go in so much for Ameican patriotic imagery, but thats a whole other lame debate). Presumably she wears that sort of outfit for the same reason most male heroes elect their costumes - because they think it looks good on them.

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As a quick aside I think it was always explained that WW wore all the "American patriotic imagery" out of respect for the US flag colors Steve Trevor wore when they found him on Paradise Island. Obviously it also played into the whole "wholesome American hero" thing for kids reading the comic too.

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It always seems to me that the point of being a superhero is that you can walk through a hail of bullets, route a small army, and slug it out one on one with a pagan deity dressed in your pajamas if you so-choose. Adding armour seems superfluous unless you're going for either a batman style Badass Normal character. Or a powered-armour type. Wearing a bullet-proof vest, and padding just doesn't seem like it would significantly improve Wonder WOman's survivability.

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Well, sure, if a game character's origin story is that of a supertype blessed with some kind of invulnerability, fine, all they have to worry about is public decency laws in Paragon or the Isles. Or the eye rolling of their friends as they tart around.

But there zillions of origins where no invulnerability exists. Batman or Ironman being two good examples.

Sure, Wonder Women doesn't really need armor but she does need to be taken seriously. She could wear a suit that gives her all the freedom of movement she needs without being puerile. The suits that martial artists wear address all this quite well.

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Well clearly the "need to be taken seriously" is a relatively different matter from whether or not superheroine X needs to wear "sensible" clothing or not to survive fighting crime.

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I'm a DIRL and all the female characters I've built in this game so far have all been very firmly of the armor and cleats school. Why? Because they're "Bob" darned superheros! They get shot at with guns, flamethrowers, nuclear weapons and worse! It's just pragmatic. "Bikini girls with machine guns" might be a fun song but is definitely not something to guide the sartorial decisions of gals who want to be in the super business!


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Same.

I think the only scantily clad chick I have is one where I used the witch costume choices that came with the magic pack.

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It depends. If they can slow incoming projectiles to a halt without blkinking, and throw up a repulsion field at the same time to send them back from the direction they came, they don't need much more than a bikini.

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Assuming they don't get caught off guard.

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I can understand the mindset of wanting to always dress females in "realistic" Batman-esque clothing because let's face it not many superheroines IRL would likely fight crime in 5 inch stilettos even if they could.

But there are plenty of examples of superheroines in comics like Supergirl who are nigh-invulnerable. From a RP point of view if I had a character with god-like defensive powers like that they might be motivated to wear something relatively skimpy (i.e. Wonder Woman) because after all it's not like they -need- to wear armor or sensible clothing to protect themselves.

For me basically it boils down the character concept I'm working with at the time. Some of my girls follow the "sensible clothing" school of thought while others follow the "wear anything they want sensible or not" idea. I try to let the character concept dictate their outfits instead of always wearing the same type of thing for every character.

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Yes, the developers do not seem to have the ability to make reasonable requirements for badges. If it isn't one extreme (too trivial) it is the other (too tedious).

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Not all the Architect badges were unreasonable, however. A fair amount of them were very reachable within the first few weeks of "normal" gameplay.

I'll reiterate my original premise: Badges should not have been released with I14 at all for Architect, but released in tiers for several major updates afterwards (while still tracking the values behind-scenes from day one). That way, the "urge" to farm for badges becomes deadened by not knowing the req's for them right out of beta, but becomes more and more an objective acquired through normal gameplay.

If they had done this for Architect, I think most people would have focused on Architect itself, rather than being a vehicle for badge farming, which is what triggered the "mah bucket^H^H^H^H^H^Hbadgez!" response.

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Having a "delayed MA badge rollout" scheme might have spared the MA badges from being caught and used as a scapegoat in the general MA farming witchhunt. Hard to say for sure.

Ultimately I think there were only about a dozen MA badges that were truly problematic.
The ones that encouraged "Badging PvP" specifically.
I suppose the Devs decided to ham-fist the other 60 or 70 just to be sure.

There are bound to be special cases in a badge system as large as this one is. Heck we still have a badge in this game (Power Liberator/Master Thief) that some people managed to earn during the heavily broken CoP/IoP base PvP era almost 3 years ago that hasn't had a strictly legitimate way to be earned since.

But in your specific example the 6 healing badges are pretty much the only badges in the game that are heavily dependent on the exact powers (and thus ATs) a particular character has. And that's not even considering all the Scrappers and Tanks and whatnot who actually have the Empath badge right now thanks to gladiator heal farming.

I'm not calling for a complete rehashing of every badge in the game here. But it's worth realizing that there are badges set on the extreme fringes of the badge earning spectrum that any reasonable person would have to agree are either much too tedious OR much too trivial for any player regardless of AT/powersets.

People have been reporting (even in this thread) about having trouble with getting full Septads to work. If Septads don't work at all then that would potentially screw over the epic ATs from being able to get this badge.

But if your workaround of having just two people of the same AT face off works would this mean that if you tried only having say two Warshades match up would that work for them?

Might be worth an experiment.

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The phrase "moderately challenging" seems to be beyond the grasp of our Devs' understanding.

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Or the phrase "moderately challenging" is a variable value, different for every player and dev...

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Obviously the definition of such a phrase can vary between various people involved.
But when you consider the extremes of the spectrum it's much easier for people to agree.

Badges that take many months of daily 8 hour-a-day play could be considered a bit too challenging for most. But by the same token a set of badges introduced by an Issue that can be completely finished off in a single afternoon is probably a bit too non-challenging for most. YMMV.

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It does bother me that the Devs decided that it'd better for the game to just slash-n-burn these badges rather than to spend the time trying to rework the requirements to save them. As others have pointed out it sets a bad precedent for the future. If the Devs had the stomach to axe this many badges what would stop them from removing ANY other badge from now on for any pretense?

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I would think the fact that badges they removed had such a short history of existence made it easier for them to justify pulling them out of the game. I just honestly cannot see them applying this same logic to badges that have been around for years and for which people worked really hard to earn. Lessening the requirements ala Zookeeper - e.g. changing Illusionist from 500 to 100 - I could see, but pulling a badge like Illusionist, Empath, or anything else that is hard to get, but which has been around for ages, just isn't the same as pulling back badges that have been in the game for a few weeks (as of the time of the announcement).

So while I'm not worried about this setting a precedent for the Devs removing any other existing badges, I am concerned about what precedent it (and the new Arena badges) may be setting for future badges.

There's a reason collectors like things like rare coins and stamps, autographed trading cards, and variant cover comics - they are things that you can't just get by "falling out of bed," so getting them feels like something of an accomplishment. Removal of badges won't necessarily kill my interest in the badge-hunting minigame, but removal of any reasonable effort to earn a badge will.

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Your assessment about how likely it would be for the Devs to remove older badges is probably a fair one. But the Devs have been known to suddenly decree various things in this game that have been around for years to be "exploits" or "broken" so I would have to say the chance that any old badge could now be axed has gone up by some small degree at any rate. Bottomline as I mentioned before I think it's reasonable to say that our overall collective trust in the system has been reduced by this situation.

As for the precedent that the new Arena badges may be forging I'd agree that would be unfortunate. While I enjoy earning badges that some people might consider "too tedious" I can at least accept the compromise position that some badges could be made slightly less tedious in the future. But in the long tradition of our Devs overreacting to things it would seem that instead of making new badges slightly less tedious they are planing to make new badges absolutely trivial to earn. The phrase "moderately challenging" seems to be beyond the grasp of our Devs' understanding.

Yeah I'll bet if you tried to directly ask a Dev about it they would not freely admit that this was a "farming" change because it affects all missions equally.

On the other hand having bosses now spawn in specifically 'ideal' Fire/Kin farm missions pretty much implies that this is yet another "speed bump" that will reduce the speed of farming down a notch to a level the Devs would probably accept as a tolerable.

My main badger lost 76 badges on Monday. It probably would have been more than that but karmically enough I was on overseas travel during most of the time between I14 going live and the announcement that many MA badges would be removed in I15 so I never had the opportunity to waste the time earning most of the Dev Choice and Hall of Fame mission badges. Lucky me I guess.

It does bother me that the Devs decided that it'd better for the game to just slash-n-burn these badges rather than to spend the time trying to rework the requirements to save them. As others have pointed out it sets a bad precedent for the future. If the Devs had the stomach to axe this many badges what would stop them from removing ANY other badge from now on for any pretense? I understand they always had the power to delete badges whenever they wanted, but at least up until now they hadn't actually exercised that power in any serious way. The floodgates are open now for any badge to find itself on the chopping block.

It's too bad we basically can't "trust" the system like we used to. If I didn't already have most of the badges in the game I'd probably be more frustrated about this than I am. Ultimately I don't think this will cause the top badgers in this game to stop badging, but I could see how it could easily demotivate most people from ever trying to get into it from now on.

I sadly suspect the long term consequences of removing the MA badges will be far worse than any problems they were causing in the first place...

Beef_Cake mentioned:
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Here is what I did and it worked.

1. Hero vs Hero Pentad
2. Rated
3. 30 minute timer
4. Super Heavyweight

After we won the match, we received the badge.

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As Draggynn said setting Pentad matches as "rated" does not seem to be required for them to award the badge. Since that kind of thing matters to some people that's worth pointing out. I've yet to need any of these arena matches be set to "rated" in order for the badges to drop.

Wen_Ho mentioned:
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anyone else having problems not advancing even though you win the first rounds of a swiss tourney?

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Yes we were having trouble with Swiss matches until we figured it out.

Apparently if you actually try to "play" a match for real (as in if you actually fight each other as you are technically supposed to) then the game seems to randomly decide which player will advance in the Swiss regardless of the outcome of the fight.

But if you decide amongst the 8 players who will be the designated "winner" and make sure the other 7 players just quit their matches without combat then you can reliably get the "winner" to win and get the badge.

We sent bug reports in on this assuming anyone would ever want to play these kinds of matches "for real" sometime.

I'm sure most of us would love to know every single detail about every single patch.
But sometimes the Devs fix things we as players -don't- really need to know about.

If the Devs bothered to tell us details about emergency hotfixes or exploit fixes then there would likely be more chaos and questions swirling around on these forums than there already is. Ironically many people never stumble over the bugs that these little stealth patches fix anyway so why advertise the existence of bugs those people will now never see?

The Devs have never been (and will never be) obligated to tell us everything about everything. Basically when they say something like "a stability fix" that's a software developer code phrase for "stuff players are probably better off not knowing about".

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I hate to say it but I seriously believe that if I had been given the task to take the original group of MA badges and analyze their requirements for game balancing issues that I could have come up with something more workable than the Devs did.

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Almost any of us could have, but then that is becasue we aren't being tasked with other priorites, and/or just having such things dicatated to us. The devs answer to someone, prolly a suit that hasn't ever played the game for more than a few minutes (if that)

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I have a hard time thinking the Devs are having to run their badge designs past a "suit" to get a sign-off. Basically I believe they just completely fumbled the ball on this one. If their 'priorities' for designing badges for a major Issue that probably took them a year or more to develop can't include a few hours of serious brainstorming to realize the consequences of their plans then I think they have at least a few -misguided- priorities at work.

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I think I understand the fundamental idea that badges should strike a compromise between being too "easy" and too "hard" to earn. Most of the concepts for these badges were good ones. The problem with most of them involved the range of values it would take to earn the given series of badges. It seems the Devs wanted to make a few new epic level Empaths, Leaders and Immortals out of these which was basically overkill on many levels.

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I tend to disagree with most on this point, I feel most all of the badges here are too easy to get, and that people say that all badges should be gained based on their style of play, instead of adjusting their style to get the badge. So to that end, I guess be thankful that I don't create badges cause a few would take even people like Burnin Up, hopper, and myself weeks if not a whole month to get unlike the day or two it took to get most of the MA badges we just lost.

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I was amongst those badgers who had maybe 85% of the MA badges done in a few days. With that experience I would again stress I feel I understand the idea that most badges should probably take longer than 5 seconds to get and shorter than 6 months, give or take.

Clearly the MA badges, like most badges in the game, were not terribly well thought out from the point of view of making them "challenging yet non-tedious". I feel that most of the MA badges fell in either the too easy or (to use a more descriptive term) too tedious category. I don't have a problem with badges that take a relatively long time to get if the effort to get them is not overly tedious. When I mentioned badges like Empath in relation to MA badges I was referring to the tedium level involved.

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It's too bad the Devs handwaved some kind of vague "we don't like grindy/farmy badges" excuse as a pretense to completely remove all of these badges instead of taking a few hours to think about what was really wrong and make adjustments.

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I agree, but as state above I also suspect they weren't given a chance to do that. badges were made a scape goat for the xp/inf farming in MA. They couldn't turn off xp/inf, so they took back the badges. *we* all know these are two very different group of players; but in a very general use of the term both badges and inf gathers are "farmers" and farmers had to pay.

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I would agree with the idea that MA badges were effectively used as a scapegoat for all the woes of MA farming in general.

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We know the Devs have been willing to reasonably adjust the requirements of badges in the past when needed and have done so with at least 4 or 5 badges I can think of such as Empath and Zookeeper.

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From my understanding and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, empath was a typo, that became a bit of an inside joke (I remember posi actually chuckled when it was mentioned in an interview), that was eventually corrected. Zookeeper. I think was one of the first times the devs just caved to player complaints, there was no need to lower the requierments, it took very little time to complete the task if you jsut took the time to focus in it, and honestly feel it was a mistake to set the precident that enough [censored] would work.

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I have a hard time accepting Posi's public excuse that Empath was just a "typo". Typos that trivial don't get left uncorrected for YEARS. To this day I honestly believe it was purposefully set at one billion as a big "F-U" to badge completists (which we know he doesn't like regardless) and it took YEARS of reasoned argument to finally get him to admit the insulting silliness of that value. As far as Zookeeper goes I never had a problem with the original value either, but it does serve as an example of a badge that was easily modified instead of being ripped from the game like the MA badges were.

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Will all new badges be of the "do something once" variety (like the I15 Arena badges) thus making badging a very trivial pursuit from now on?

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I think this is exactly what is happening, because there has been so much moaning on the boards, and the general level of entitlement any MMO reaches after several years of up time. I mean honestly the whole game has gotten absurdly easy, and badging is just a subset of the game.

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I wish I didn't have to agree with this but I do. It seems as time goes on all MMOs start suffering from this "entitlement nerf" creep and I suppose CoX is no exception to that. Oh well...

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And just what do we have here...

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*cough* *cough*.

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I'll take "A Redundant Thread" for 100...

I guess it's nice they had time to add new random visual effects to the alakazamreact emote.
But when are they going to allow the juggling emotes to be used while Hovering?

I suppose a person could easily argue that both of these emote QoL improvements are highly questionable uses of the Devs' time and effort. But at least having versions of the juggle emotes that work while Hovering would seem a tiny tad bit more visually satisfying (if that's the right term) than the alakazamreact emote being random. Oh well.

Hovering while doing the CardTrick or ThrowConfetti emotes look so dang cool.
I'm sure juggling while Hovering would look equally nifty.

I'm almost surprised this 2X CoX "weekend" isn't going to be lasting the entire week of September 1st.

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They changed the screenshot filename format from this:

screenshot_2009-06-30-00-00-00.jpg
screenshot_yyyy-mm-dd-hh-mm-ss.jpg

to this:

screenshot_090630-00-00-00.jpg
screenshot_yymmdd-hh-mm-ss.jpg

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Great, now our screenshot filenames are not y3k compliant...

In all seriousness I have to assume that change "helped" something.
What that something was I haven't a clue. *shrugs*

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Well my main badger lost 76 badges yesterday. *sigh*

I'll be the first to freely admit I am not a game designer by training or profession. But I have to assume that my years of experience with this game and with badging in particular has given me some relevant knowledge in this area. With that knowledge it was painfully clear that many of the Issue 14 MA badges were either much too easy to get or in many cases much too tediously difficult.

I hate to say it but I seriously believe that if I had been given the task to take the original group of MA badges and analyze their requirements for game balancing issues that I could have come up with something more workable than the Devs did. I think I understand the fundamental idea that badges should strike a compromise between being too "easy" and too "hard" to earn. Most of the concepts for these badges were good ones. The problem with most of them involved the range of values it would take to earn the given series of badges. It seems the Devs wanted to make a few new epic level Empaths, Leaders and Immortals out of these which was basically overkill on many levels.

It's too bad the Devs handwaved some kind of vague "we don't like grindy/farmy badges" excuse as a pretense to completely remove all of these badges instead of taking a few hours to think about what was really wrong and make adjustments. We know the Devs have been willing to reasonably adjust the requirements of badges in the past when needed and have done so with at least 4 or 5 badges I can think of such as Empath and Zookeeper. But instead they just threw up their hands on this and gave up altogether setting (as Nericus mentioned) a very bad precedent for the future. Will the Devs now just willy-nilly drop any other badge they have the slightest bit of trouble with? Will all new badges be of the "do something once" variety (like the I15 Arena badges) thus making badging a very trivial pursuit from now on?

Mistakes happen and arguably there were mistakes made with the MA badges.
I'm just not sure the Devs' response to what happened was very rational all things considered.
Kneejerk style "we're taking our ball and going home" responses aren't usually very helpful.

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Anyone have pics of the before and after Glad shoulders? I just checked the new ones, and other than the wonky size they look much better than I remember the old ones.

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Here's the thing though: Even if you like the new version better would you, if you had the power, dictate that the old version be removed from the game regardless if anyone still liked it or not or would you be fine with having two versions to choose from in the character creator?

All I'm saying is having two choices has to be better for everyone than having a "choice" of one.

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Let's see:

Old pieces have a nasty habit of looking horrible with newer costume pieces. What is the sence of going backwards in graphic design just to cater to a few people who want to hold onto the "purity" of their character.

I wish they would redesign every old costume piece and replace them with a new one, just so the "costume purists" can cry nerf and "leave" in the same way the others cry nerf and pretend to leave.

I mean... you're complaining over IMPROVEMENTS!

Look at the old gladiator shoulder and the new one! The old one looked horrible with the new Roman pieces. The old one looked horrible with the OLD costume pieces.

But, I digress, this is the internet... someone has to complain about something, right?

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You do realize that it's simply your OPINION that any new item looks better than any replaced item right?
I mean, you -do- realize that don't you?

It's also your assumption that old items universally clip worse than any new item. I'm quite sure for every clip example you can come up with I can come up with an example that DIDN'T clip at all. Assuming something is 100% bad in a case like this is laughable.

And while you're realizing the fundamental faults with your position why exactly would it hurt you personally if there were two gladiator shoulder items in the costume creator? I mean the old items like this already exist. We are talking zero extra developement time here. If you really love the new items that much more here's what you'd do: you use -those- items and not the ones you don't like. Is that concept really that hard?

I'm not complaining about IMPROVEMENTS at all.
I'm certainly not leaving the game over this assine practice of replacing old items.
Heck there are times I actually LIKE the new versions of items AS WELL AS the old.

I'm pointing out that IMPROVEMENTS don't have to REPLACE anything.
IMPROVEMENTS can in fact be additive, not just things that REPLACE other things.
For example when the Wedding Pack added the "Plus" items they didn't remove the original versions as well.

Why on earth would anyone think REMOVING items that have been around for years is an IMPROVEMENT in a game whose strength is costume customization? Why on earth would anyone think MAINTANING old items while adding new items would NOT be an IMPROVEMENT to a game whose strength is costume customization?

Get a grip before you assume such a negative stance on a topic that wouldn't affect you at all either way.

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But how can you really call a legacy version of an item "broken" if it's been in the game for years?

[/ QUOTE ]The same way Defiance 1.0 or Domination pre-15 were broken?

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You may have a point but that's trying to compare game mechanics to costume items.
Not quite sure you can easily make that leap of logic in this case. *shrugs*

Costume items don't affect how people play various ATs and we know the game system could easily support two or more versions of any costume item simultaneously. Not sure the same could be said about the things you mentioned.