LordXenite

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Playing a game "efficiently" tends to turn the activity to a monotonous grind which to me resembles a job on an assembly line


[/ QUOTE ]
Not true, you can play the game efficiently, and have fun at the same time. I enjoy running the ITF over and over, so it's not farming. Yet my running time continues to improve, so I can complete the ITF in about 45 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]
As long as you are talking about repeating an action (or sequence of actions) that leads to a better result with each iteration, that is grinding, and/or farming if it's done solely for the sake of the rewards themselves.

I also play the ITF over and over because I like to play the ITF. Especially with PuGs because I always get different groups to play with. I also like to see improvement in how long it takes my team to complete the ITF, but if for example the team leader is pushing for us to use well-known ITF exploits, I will quit the team then and there and look for another team, or put together a new team.

[ QUOTE ]
When I build an MA arc, I'll make it efficient. Once that's accomplished, I'll fill in the story line. Playing efficient isn't farming, it's playing smart.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I build an MA arc, I first and foremost think of the story, then about maps I'd like to use, then the different mission goals, then how mission goals would link to one-another, then about critters, clues, dialogs and all that.

I actually never, ever, spend any time thinking about how to make my story-arc grant anyone the most efficient amount of tickets.

You're not making MA arcs, you're making obstacle courses for CoX Athelets and while there's nothing wrong with that, at least don't call anything else dumb, and by extension, people who build their arcs differently, stupid!

1500 tickets may be fine today, but tomorrow, as more people try to achieve the cap in as little time as possible, 1500 may turn into 750. So, my point is that I'm against the shock that people express when the Devs decide to re-evaluate their numbers and adjust the game, not against people trying to reach that cap.

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all your psots, LordXenite, I see the same theme through out your messages. ME ME ME ... I I I ... I've never seen someone so focussed on their own view point. The key to any discussion is looking at it from other people's perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, in all I've said, I've expressed my opinion. I didn't say don't play as efficiently as you want, or don't grind, or don't farm. I do say however, that there are going to be consequences to however you wish to play the game.

You haven't convinced me yet that there's merit to allowing people the rate of efficiency that MA/AE allowed before the current nerfs, and I don't expect to actually convince you that playing the game for anything but character-growth is worthy of your time... so how again are we supposed to discuss this in a manner that will satisfy us both?

[ QUOTE ]
This points to the fact that its up to PLAYERS to make sure that their missions can appeal to a wide range of folks.
*
What I seen repeatedly however is some mission authors build it, then only test it with their most IO'd out uber toon with uber defense.
*
And then they wonder why they get no plays or 1 stars.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes... building a good story-arc that presents an interesting story, good combat mechanics that are not too easy to overcome and not too frustrating to fight, is an art form.

[ QUOTE ]
No. I've played some decent arcs. It's just that, at certain times, I get mercenary and don't really care about the content. I just wanna go nuts and kill stuff and get shiny.
*
Is there really anything wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing wrong with that, but then again, Radio/Newspaper Missions were exactly created for that, right?!

Since the goals I see for the MA/AE system were never associated with providing a "better" or even a "separate" vehicle for character-growth, I am not phased by the changes to the MA/AE system or our Arcs.

Perhaps the Devs made a mistake when they let people believe that you can and "should" create a character and grow it solely in an AE center.

[ QUOTE ]
The Devs are loathe to tell us what the "Speed Limit" is for rewards for what I guess are very understandable reasons (haven't figured them all out, competition would use the info, setting the speed limit high enough for normal play but low enough to prevent abuse may not be possible).

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that the Devs do not want to declare a Speed Limit because this number keeps changing according to what the games' population does.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, there is one. There is some speed which, if adopted by enough people, would NECESSITATE nerfs (or some sweeping restructure of the game, like an 'insta 50' mode or something).

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly there is such a limit, but this limit is in my understanding split between different gameplay mechanisms, i.e. there's a limit to how efficiently different game-activities promote your character.

[ QUOTE ]
A question: if the Devs publicized a Speed Limit, and actually said 'garnering rewards faster than x/y is too fast', and if that Limit were somewhat smaller than what you can hit now, would you quit or just edge really close to the limit?

[/ QUOTE ]
If the Devs publicized a Speed Limit, I personally couldn't care less. I've already been through many debates with people who tried to rub in that they had Lv50 characters before I did, and showing off their purple-build this, and purple-build that... but for myself, the fun in this game has little to do with how successful my stats/numbers are and a lot more with how much fun the gameplay of my chosen AT/power-set combination brings me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See, that's what I don't get... what fun bits are you talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

...I think it rather thoroughly sums up why the Devs are against power leveling and farming.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bravo.

In my opinion, MMO's are only fun if you play them with friends, or PuG and make friends, and this you can do from Lv1 to the level-cap.

Games that tell me "first level up some, and then we'll show you what fun really is", I eventually get disillusioned with and quit, because deep down inside, the fun is either in You (and your friends), or it isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know man. I wouldn't mind my grinding being more efficient so that I could get around to the fun bits....

[/ QUOTE ]
See, that's what I don't get... what fun bits are you talking about?

Have you even considered all the changes CoX has experienced since its inception? Changes that have made leveling up faster (Rested XP for example), changes that have made our characters have way more options to get richer, sooner... You can't just focus on one nerf and judge the game by just that one standard. Overall, CoX now is a much more lenient and easier game than it used to be when I joined in.

[ QUOTE ]
Well that's arguable, but I was taking issue with you using general terms instead of speaking specifically about CoX.

[/ QUOTE ]
To speak specifically about CoX, I say that we need more mission goals, mission objectives, more ways to interact with the gameworld, more gameplay options that revolve around doing something more than just maximizing XP/INF-per-minute rates.

I say this because I think that had the Devs wished to encourage the population of Efficient Gamers in CoX, they would've just released the MA in I13 because instead of letting us design custom critters, and craft stories, the Efficient Gamer would've been just as happy, or happier even with user-crafted Rikti Comm Officer missions!

Actually, what I hope the Devs would realize is that we need more missions objectives both in the MA/AE and in the normal in-game content!

Catering to Efficient Expert gamers in CoH would probably mean that the Devs would need to force CoH to resemble other games out there, with their silly l00t grinds, replacing "gear" with "better" gear, and escalating the level-cap with more filler skills. Like someone on the forums already said, I forget who, CoH doesn't force you to replace Skill of "Ice-Sword" with an "Ice-Sword Rank II" and then a few levels after with "Ice Sword Rank III".

The reason those other games do the endless Ranking race is because people who gravitate to this Efficiency gameplay need the constant Ding and the Bigger Numbers, but essentially, this race means that the ceiling is always rising without providing any meaningful content anyway.

From what I've seen in CoH, the Devs chose to focus on providing an experience that is satisfying from Lv1 to Lv50 and encourage the player to cultivate a stable of different characters each with its rewarding strengths and challenges.

What I see in other games reminds me of a Donkey pulling a cart while a carrot is dangling in front of it. When I realize the Devs of those games consider me a Donkey, I quit playing those games.

You say that like it's a bad thing that CoH has a different model (business or otherwise) than WoW...

Last time I checked, Games were supposed to be a recreational activity. Playing a game "efficiently" tends to turn the activity to a monotonous grind which to me resembles a job on an assembly line.

Oddly enough, if a lot of people gravitate to the assembly line, the Devs respond by changing the game and making the parts the assembly line focused on even less appealing for casual players as a result of the Devs' effort to return the assembly line workers back to their normal level of productivity.

In other words, people who play MMO's efficiently tend to show the Devs what in the game should be modified so that the casual gamer can play the game without feeling inferior to those so-called Efficiency Experts.

(QR)

See guys, I play the game to play the game. I care not for getting to Lv50, I care not for purpling a build because I know that eventually those goals are within my reach if I persevere. That perseverance and dedication is exactly what the Devs want from us because in the long run, it leads towards more profit for the Devs!

When people are looking to play the system rather than play the game, the Devs have to compensate to protect their preconceived projections. An MMO subscription plan is based on projections about how long it should take a normal/casual player to accomplish their goals, get burnt-out with their characters, and possibly even leave the game. However, these projections must be fluid and must undergo periodical inspection whenever the game's market and population responds by adjusting it's collective gameplay methods.

This is essentially what we're seeing here with the responses from the Devs, and the Devs will continue to respond like this whenever people will come up with ways to play the system rather than play the game.

@hewhorocks: Yes, of course this is an exploit and if the Devs data-mine and figure out that there is an SG out there whose members are constantly publishing arcs, rating them and then repeatedly un-publishing and re-publishing those same Arcs only to rinse-repeat, all the while gaining tickets without actually having *any* risks what-so-ever, I'd definitely expect the Devs to respond in some way to this.

@Nettik: Yes, indeed that seems a colossal investment of time and energy for a rather small reward, but this reward is guaranteed without any chance of risk what-so-ever. Never underestimate the laziness of people.

@HenryTank: My idea was laid out and expressed like it was to show an example of how effortlessly it is to "earn" rewards in MMO's. It is all a function of time and effort. The Devs have the right to protect their design of exactly how long it should take a casual/normal player to get to Lv50 or to purple-out their build.

Focusing on efficient grinding/farming is simply going to bring more changes to the game, and not in the direction grinders/farmers want to see.

EDIT :: By the way, I have to add this so people don't get the wrong idea and think I'm a farmer/grinder/exploiter... were *I* Positron, I'd take away the ability to use tickets to buy rewards other than the unlockable MA/AE content, and instead give only XP/INF and Merits from MA/AE content, and with reduced rates so that MA/AE content is still played by people who want to experience it for the content and not because it grants better rewards than the normal in-game content.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I made a story-arc, and it earns tickets for me when I'm offline... but it's not enough... I want 100 tickets for every star my story-arc earns, 5 tickets per star isn't enough!

[/ QUOTE ]
*
This would be great if people didn't one star every new five star map that hits the front page.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very true, but guess what, I actually advertise my Arc to friends and other people I play with, and I also do not have grand expectations to earn an insane amount of tickets without putting in the effort for it.

People are behaving as if MA/AE is the only way to grow a successful character, people are behaving as if the game is balanced only for purpled-out builds, people are behaving as if it's a GOOD thing to populate missions with ONLY custom critters and then when the Devs are sending the message that they do not wish their efforts to be exploitable, people revolt against the Dev's right to protect their own creation from abuse?!!?!

People, the writing was on the wall in the sense of those Captain Awesome vids with his idiotic Awesome Button. If people didn't understand what those videos were about and how those videos mocked exploiters and power-grinders... then in my book, people have only themselves to blame.

You know... just examine this little plan:

1. Get yourself into a huge SG.
   
2. Get every member of your SG to publish 3 arcs out with small maps, just one mission each so they're very short to complete.
   
3. Go and 5-star each others' arcs. Each 5-star grants 25 tickets without the author doing anything other than publishing the arc. That's 75 tickets for each SG-member from each other SG-member.
   
4. After each SG-member has rated each Arc, remove all the Arcs and have each member re-publish their arcs with new ID's!
   
5. Rinse Repeat, and since the tickets are account-wide claimable, make sure to claim them and distribute them amongst your neediest characters before you reach the global ticket-cap per account!

I think this means that if the number of members in your SG is "n", then your tickets can be expressed as "75 * (n - 1)" so optimally, if you're in an SG with 46 members, you'd be netting 3375 tickets for practically publishing three meaningless arcs. This of course is above and beyond what you can get with normal MA/AE gameplay, so basically, collect (or join) 45 other people who like you, want tickets more than anything else, and go clean up.

I made a story-arc, and it earns tickets for me when I'm offline... but it's not enough... I want 100 tickets for every star my story-arc earns, 5 tickets per star isn't enough!

Do you mean to say StratoNexus that there are several ways to grow a character and some ways will always be more (or less) profitable than others? Do you mean to say that you play MA story-arcs for the work their Authors have put in designing a plot, clues, dialogs, custom critters, and you don't just play for rewards?!

OMG man... what are you?! Some kind of a Logical Vulcan or something?!

[ QUOTE ]
After a long night of messing around in mids I came to relize there are just somethings you can't do in a forum.
*
I have decided to learn by trial and error. I'm a 36 month vet so I get plenty of respecs. With so many power choices its hard to have people suggest builds because in the end. It seems to me that khelds were built to serve the needs of what ever play style you have.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's how I learned about my Kheldians, and those lessons only came after deleting my 1st two Kheldians, and then seeing two new Kheldians to Lv50.

I'm definitely not a Scrapper expert, or even a Scrapper novice, but from what I saw in examining Spines/Dark, you probably cannot stack stun effect on Lt's and Bosses and because Spines relies on Lethal/Toxic damage, anything that heavily resists that would probably pose a problem.

[ QUOTE ]
The devs don't like to hear the truth about the negative nerfs they do to this game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't confuse the Devs with someone who actually owes you anything other than keeping the servers running for as long as you pay your subscription fees.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't understand why the devs are on everyones [censored] about farming and tickets and whatever. The way I look at it is the game costs $14.99 per month per player and should be able to play and have fun since this is a GAME.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Devs wish to maintain the rate with which you get to grow your characters so that they may keep your interest focused on their game and keep you paying your subscription fees. It is that simple.

If for you MA story-arcs are all about the rewards and the latest nerfs to tickets and rewards means you'd stop playing MA arcs and go back to play normal game content, or quit the game altogether, this still is just your opinion and your point of view. Some people will share your point of view, some will not.

The Devs never promised to satisfy any one particular point of view and you should remember that when expressing your discontent, *IF* you want to be taken seriously, that is.

[ QUOTE ]
The simple fact he locked the thread without moving it to where they would like to see it tells me they don't want to hear about it.

[/ QUOTE ]
As far as *I* know (you may know differently, but I doubt it), even a Moderator cannot move a thread into another thread!!!

Of course, had you checked out the links Mod8 posted when he locked your thread, you'd have figured out that Mod8 actually pointed you in the direction of the two threads that are the official threads to discuss MA Abuse/Risk-per-Reward issues.

If you expect Mod8 to actually move your posts to the threads the Moderators have created for these particular discussions, I think you're not paying them enough to do THAT job...

[ QUOTE ]
Dude all you do is put people down and never add anything to a thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Moderator 8 simply locked it down. tell me where that says, "they want to hear what we have to say???"

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that you still have forum-access still means they are not completely uninterested in what you have to say. Keep calling the Devs/Moderators names, keep throwing stuff in their faces and perhaps then they truly will be completely uninterested, you know?

To the point you made about this being a discussion, your OP in the locked thread didn't really seem like you wanted to discuss anything but simply rant, complain and generally accuse the Devs of ruining your game experience, which by the way, I personally dislike.

[ QUOTE ]
Challenge Missions are usually Scrapper Challenge Missions, I'm just being less specific than that.

[/ QUOTE ]
There we go, the cat is out of the bag... I dare Scrappers take on their own Challenges with anything other than a Scrapper...