Lord Mayhem

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And if anyone could tell me exactly how on earth you take down an Ice tank in PvP, let me know.

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I think you'd probably need an awfully large amount of Psionic damage (the only thing an Ice/ tanker has no defence nor resists too) - failing that a large amount of Fire damage, especially if they haven't taken Permafrost (the auto-power that I've seen many Ice/ builds skip). Toxic would work too, but I don't think any player attack in the game does pure Toxic damage in large amounts.

Whichever you chose you'd probably need several players of those damage types able to time their alpha strike to kill the Ice tanker before he hibernated

Either that or get a ton of Fire/Rad Corruptors and debuff him into the ground before nuking him to death, but I have a feeling he'd Hibernate if a load of RI/EF debuff icons popped up on his icon bar suddenly

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Zombies are still powerful for me. They may be squishy, but they can take down yellow and orange enemies (both minions and bosses) in seconds. Keeping them healed is a priority, and as long as they've got a comfortable amount of hitpoints they can do a nice amount of damage. The only enemies I have trouble killing are those of elite boss rank and up, particularly Infernal.

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I think Infernal would give every Mastermind problems solo in EB form - from talking to other MMs the one thing we all seem to fear is fire damage (especially as an AE), because it eats up all MM pets so quickly. And it doesn't help that Infernal could one-shot my pets in melee and at range

On Ruthless I went through 3-4 sets of pets to kill him on both occasions I met him while solo (on Rutger's arc, and again when he popped up in the Lilitu mission on Mu'Drakhan's arc) - almost died myself a few times - he's the only EB I had that much trouble with on Ruthless (admittedly I avoided Calystix the Shaper on my MM because he was so crazy overpowered when I fought him with my brute - I think he'd be harder). The next occasion I met Infernal (also on Mu'Drakhan's arc) I took a brute friend along to tank Infernal and we ended up knocking difficulty down to Vicious just for that mission (we tried him first as a Hero, but he was impossible for us). Ironic really but I died in a duo when I hadn't solo - running in to heal my friend with Twilight Grasp I got one-shotted by Infernal's cone attack Pendulum Hate Infernal, hehe.

For Sea Witch I recall spreading my bots around (so her Tornado wouldn't affect them all), eating a few Lucks and a Break Free myself, then debuffing her constantly and holding aggro myself while the bots wore her down. I seem to remember getting knocked around and disorientated a lot (even through the Break Free) while I kited her around, but the bots got her in the end (two of them survived heh).

Cynic is right about /dark's Twilight Grasp and Shadow Fall adding tons of survivability that other sets perhaps don't have (although I've made a Mercs/Traps purely because the Force Field Generator looks so good) - without Twilight Grasp I doubt I could have done as well on Ruthless and Relentless as I did, especially not against EBs. And psionic-based foes are just easy (Aurora Borealis was no threat) because Shadow Fall plus the bot's inherent psi resists (and near-immunity to hold/sleep) means they won't be taking damage at all.

Lilitu was horrid too, but only because I met her in a corridor and she spammed her AE hold so much she overcame the bot's inherent hold protection. I got one-shotted by her as well, with the bots and I all helpless in blocks of ice

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I've been having a blast with my necro/dark MM, and they seem to have gotten tougher with the I7 patch as well. Tar Pit + Zombie vomit + Twilight Grasp = fun

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I wish my friend felt the same way, because yesterday on a mayhem mission he felt that his zombies were now much weaker than my bots when compared to pre-I7 - not just in damage (he'd always felt that) but in tanking as well - and we're both L40. Pre-I7 we both felt the zoms were tougher, but yesterday he was losing zoms every few fights and I didn't lose a single bot (admittedly I didn't lose that many before). Admittedly I'm /dark and he's /poison, and Twilight Grasp does add a lot of survivability, but that hasn't changed since I7 - works same as before, as far as I can see.

The only conclusion I could come to is that most of the things we were fighting were psi-cops, and correct me if I'm wrong but bots are immune (or at least extremely resistant) to psionic damage?

Though he was very happy that all of his pets have Super Jump now - I'm happy all my bots get it too (only the tier 1 drones had it before) - should make CoT Oranbega dungeon maps a bit less annoying I know Ninja pets had SJ before - but do merc pets (and thug pets?) all have SJ now too? (sorry to go a bit off-topic)

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From what I could figure out it seems that the Scirocco PPP set's endurance drain is more like a discount on the powers that transfer it back, rather than actually going over the power cost and restoring your end.

Of course I didn't confirm that personally.

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Yeah that would tie up with my experiences of playing an Electric/Electric Blaster in CoH, on whose powers I believe at least one of the Mu PPP powers are based on (and some of the brute Electric Melee attacks too).

My Electric blaster certainly didn't feel like he was getting a lot of End back, just occasionally one of his powers would cost a bit less than I expected (really only noticeable with Ball Lightning, which the Mu PPP shares) - not enough to make a massive difference (not at his low level, anyway), but a bit of a help over time.

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Evading holds is always better in PvE/PvP than getting hit by a less damaging one, that's why /DA and /Fire should be happy they have to pick Acrobatics, it has a tiny bit of extra hold res.
In PvE the damage between a resistance or a defence set isn't really big, but in PvP most resistance sets will be taken down faster due to lower defence.

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Unless your opponent uses Aim/Build-Up (or both, in the case of blasters) then that entire defence set won't really count for much and you'd be better off with some resistance.

In most other games, for tanking damage, mitigation (CoV/H resistance) is always better than avoidance (CoV/H defence) because the rate of incoming damage is far more predictable than with the spikes you can get from an unlucky run of bad avoidance "rolls". Makes it easier for the healers and for you yourself to judge what you can and can't handle.

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First, its a knock up since you seems to be nitpick, second Knockout Blow apply a hold. I've been PvP'ing for last few months in Siren's Call and Warburg i should know.

I'll repeat myself once more, Knockout Blow has a Hold component.

Try it sometime, ask one of your friend SS tanker or brute then come back here. If you are on Union, i can arrange that.

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Well I don't understand that. Just logged in my SS Brute, used knockout blow a few times, and took screenshots to show you exactly what I mean:

1) ok, I'll give you that, Knockout Blow does apply knock-up first, as part of...

2) its knockback, then...

3) it causes a disorient effect to apply (note the usual "rotating stars" disorient graphics swirling around the target's head)

4) then I'll admit the target doesn't wander far, but most of mine definitely move a few feet. The disorient didn't last long on the mob in the above pictures, probably because it was orange con - he took one step before it wore off (and I missed the screenshot of that step) so I hit an even con and the disorient lasted long enough (a few seconds) that he took a few steps.

Yes, you're right that the in-game description says its a hold, but we've seen other ingame descriptions be wrong before (there's always some getting fixed in patch notes) and most of the main planners, like SherkSilver's, describe it (correctly, imho) as a Disorient-Major, which in his parlance usually means a mag3 hold (perhaps with a chance to crit at mag4 like Total Focus).

It doesn't really last long enough either way to be that noticeable in regular use - certainly not worth slotting for duration.

But I can agree to differ.

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In the meantime I'd rather my enemies were in melee range than immobilised /shrug.


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They are not incompatibles arent they? What I was doing was aggro a lot of mobs,go to a corner and wait for the whole group to cross the corner and be packed,shot the inmobs and there it is...every mob on a 10-12 ft area and inmobilized.

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Not incompatible, no, but why do you need a whole spawn immobilised in the first place? Can’t you just kill them? Personally if I’d herded up a whole spawn, like in your example, then I’d rather just use Fire Sword Circle + Blazing Aura boosted by BU/FE to kill the minions, then kill the lieuts (one attack will do it after the AEs), then finish the boss.

The only benefit I can see is if you don’t have any high damage AEs in your primary (e.g. Stone Melee, Energy Melee, Super Strength, Dark Melee) and want to use Burn from your secondary, like you say. But my Fiery Melee has a higher damage AE than Burn (and Fire Sword Circle doesn’t need to tick over 8 seconds to do it) over a wider area - I think Electric Melee does too. I guess an immobilise could also be handy if you want to use powers that do knockback, without the knockback actually taking effect (e.g. if you were fighting on a gantry/walkway), but I don’t.

So what benefit would I get from having a whole spawn immobilised? To stop runners? I don’t have a problem with runners solo or in small teams - you can usually kill them before they get far - and even if they get away they won’t bring friends back (no chain aggro in this game) unless they’re a debuff anchor (and the debuffer should have seen that and either finished off the runner or clicked off the debuff) - and runners soon return.

I’ve been considering Mu Mastery, simply for another AE attack (Ball Lightning) so I could perhaps finish off the lieutenants as easily as the minions after using Fire Sword Circle - so I looked at that and the AE immobilise Electrifying Fences (which does slightly less damage) and both cost 19 End - that's more than Fire Sword Circle for half as much damage! I spent 40 levels End-balancing my brute to play non-stop and that End-use would have a huge impact in terms of downtime. So I’m not sure how often I’d actually need/use either of the PPP AEs - they’re just not that efficient and I can’t see a need for an AE immobilise on a Fire/Fire that doesn't have/need Burn.

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Knockout Blow has a Hold component. That alone is fantatisc. Single target extreme damage with a hold? Sign me up.

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Seismic Smash (Stone Melee's "extreme" attack) applies a hold - I'm 100% sure Knockout Blow is a disorient plus knockback, as it's never applied a hold for me (and the in-game/planner descriptions back that up).

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Fast question, between SS and EM wich have a better chance of disorienting/knockback your foe?

Heard that EM does disorient alot more but is it that much more then SS? So even if EM do disorient alot more is SS that far behind?

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Every SS attack has knockback/down except Jab, which has a low-mag disorient. Knockout Blow and Hand Clap have higher mag disorients in addition to knockback. Knockdown/back is really the SS set's main effect (and if you take Air Superiority from Flight pool instead of Jab you can get even more). Every EM attack has disorient on it - my character planner says Energy Transfer doesn't, but I think mine disorientated a Longbow warden the other day - so hard to tell, because anything you use ET on tends to die very fast

My EM Stalker, when scrapping, reliably gets disorients on most of the things he fights (so most of the time they can't attack back), but it can take a while to reliably stack them on a boss (Stun makes it easier). My SS Brute reliably gets knockdown on almost everything he fights and they only get a chance to attack right after they get up (so most of the time they can't attack back) - but bosses/EBs/AVs are either vulnerable to knockdown (making them easy to kill) or flat-out resist it (and if they do then obviously you can't stack it).

Basically it depends which effect you prefer - both sets do big single target damage, but EM has the edge single-target while SS is slightly better at AE - I like and play both, but EM is probably better if you want to specialise in boss-killing (can stack disorients, two "big-hitter" attacks, mixed Energy/Smash damage is less resisted than pure Smashing) while SS is better and safer for killing mass spawns (better AEs / area control). Oh and if you're slow at levelling SS is probably more attractive because you get your single "big-hitter" at L8, whereas EM brutes have to wait until L18/32 (but boy is it worth the wait!).

I can't wait to take Mayhem into a Mayhem mission

(look at my sig )

I have a Super Strength / Dark Brute at L20 which seems to be working well. Endurance was a problem pre-Stamina (I had to be efficient using my toggles), but I think that's always going to be the case whatever brute you pick, especially before SOs. I picked that combo because I thought it would be a good defensive brute from the perspective of controlling enemies (with the later dark auras, plus tons of knockdown in primary which is great against bosses). Endurance problems can be overcome with slotting, Stamina and an end-drain if the set you choose has one (my Fire/Fire can run 7 toggles and fight continuously).

I couldn't really recommend Fiery Melee with Dark Armour, because I feel the greatest synergy for a Fire/ brute is with Fiery Aura, because of the second build up (fiery embrace), more AE damage (which is what Fire/ should be specialising in, as its fantastic at it) and the fact the secondary supplies both a heal and an end-drain (which you'll need with that combo).

The other primary I have a lot of experience with is Energy Melee (albeit on my Stalker). Don't write the set off as it does fantastic damage against single targets and has tons of synergy with Dark Armour - especially the higher level aura Oppressive Gloom, which causes mag2 disorients which will stack with the disorients on all of the Energy Melee attacks. My friend has a L38 Energy/Dark Brute (and another L30 one because he loves the combo so much) and it seems to be working out great for him.

I've never played Stone Melee (looks like a slow set and I hate the look of the mallet), nor Electric Melee much (a few levels last night, hehe). I don't like Dark Melee (low damage, long animations on some attacks), and have little experience of it, so I don't know but assume it complements Dark Armour well, especially because that combo would give you both a heal and an End drain.

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Im trying the PPP on test with my ss/fire and I got to agree with Danzaiber.....BU(or Rage)+Fury+FieryEmbrace+Burn(not affected by FE)+Blazing Aura+inmobs+slows from Mace PPP is...... ....almost artistic(getting Burn at last because I finally got some use for it).

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Sounds quite tempting. I'm still really torn over which PPP to choose for my L40 Fire/Fire brute - concept-wise about the only one I can really justify is Black Scorpion's set, but I'm not overly excited by any of the PPP powers for brutes in gameplay terms.

For my Fire/Fire I'm not sure an immobilise will be any use to me - BU + Fiery Embrace + Fury + Fire Sword Circle + next Blazing Aura ticks = most of the minions dead and the lieuts just need a tap on the nose to finish them off (and usually a stalker or another brute is dealing with the boss). In the meantime I'd rather my enemies were in melee range than immobilised /shrug.

But that does sound like a nice combo, Tchalla, especially for a brute that lacks a massive AE like Fire Sword Circle.

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My main in CoV is a necromancy/dark MM.
I hardly see any necromancy MM's, almost every MM I see now, is robots. I was in a team the other day with 4 robot/ff MM.
Is it something to do with them being robots, or just poeple hearing what I have herd. Some people say that zombies are no good and robots are the best.

So what is everyones view?

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For me personally I went with robots for one main reason - I liked the look of them. There are so many human characters in the game that controlling something different and a bit less humanoid appealed to me. I did go bot/FF at first (in beta and release), but the constant re-buffing with the mini-bubbles annoyed me and I prefer crowd control/debuffing so I deleted at L14 and remade as a Bot/Dark instead - imho there seem to be more Bot/Darks than Bot/FFs around on Union, but maybe I just notice them more because they have the same combination of sets as me.

I think Necromancy would be the last pet powerset I'd choose because I don't like the look or concept of the pets. I feel the same about ninjas/thugs too (though I like the look of their T2 pets).

I made a Merc MM last night and although I probably won't play it much yet (too many other characters to level) all of my reasons for picking that set were based purely on appearance:
a) I wanted a character dressed like an army general (using the new epaulets),
b) with the new physics it looks really cool to see spent bullets falling on the floor,
c) I like the animations with the set (soldiers abseiling in, using radio to summon, throwing them upgrade gear)
d) the rifle the mastermind gets to use looks great (better than the one in the Assault Rifle powerset, imho).

For me it all comes down to looks with MM pets (which is weird because with other ATs I usually think about gameplay first). So maybe it's just that the majority prefer the look of clomping robots over lurching corpses

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Perhaps think about adding an End Redux so summoning them doesn't cost as much

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Enhancements in pet summon powers only affect the pets themselves, so if you put an End Redux in them then the pet will burn less endurance when they use their powers, but it won't change how much End is taken from the Mastermind to use that summon.

I'm actually considering it for my Protector Bots on my MM - they're the only pets I have that run out of endurance regularly, then I distinctly notice them slowing down their attack rate and not using their AEs and heals as they don't have the End to use all their powers - that's when I start feeding them any blue insps I have

I don't know if any of the pets from Necromancy (or Mercs/Ninjas) have that problem, though.

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The description still states it has -acc.

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We're trusting in-game descriptions now?

I slotted all 3 of my bot summons with 2 Accuracy and 3 Damage. The only thing I wish I'd done differently (which I'll rectify with a slot from 40-50) is put an End Recution SO into the Protector Bots - when you're burning through spawns at a good pace they sometimes run out of End. It's not a massive problem, I just feed them blue insps (I don't need them), but it's something to consider if you have slots to spare.

I've heard of bot MMs sticking a Disorient Duration in their Assault Bot and Prot Bots' 6th slot as well, which might be handy once you get the L32 pet buff, but I don't find the disorient from their AE attacks last long anyway (might last longer if I wasn't on Relentless), so I doubt the SO would add much to be worthwhile.

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Personally I plan to slot an extra accuracy to compensate for the -acc in group fly, also I had plaaenty of slots going spare it seemed when I planned the build.

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Doesn't Group Fly suppress down to Hover-speed when you attack? If it does (like normal Fly does) then it probably doesn't have an accuracy penalty anymore - that was definitely removed for Fly when they put travel power suppression in. But I've never had Group Fly so I don't know if it's the same.

Just to give you an idea of an End-balanced build, here's mine:

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Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
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Name: Brute - FieryMelee + FieryAura (to L40)
Level: 40
Archetype: Brute
Primary: Fiery Melee
Secondary: Fiery Aura
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01) --> Fire Sword ==> AccEndRdxDmgDmgDmgRechg
01) --> Fire Shield ==> DmgResDmgResDmgRes
02) --> Cremate ==> AccEndRdxDmgDmgDmgRechg
04) --> Healing Flames ==> RechgRechgHealHealHeal
06) --> Boxing ==> AccEndRdxDmgDmgDmgRechg
08) --> Air Superiority ==> AccEndRdxDmgDmgDmgRechg
10) --> Build Up ==> Rechg
12) --> Combat Jumping ==> Jump
14) --> Super Jump ==> Jump
16) --> Plasma Shield ==> DmgResDmgResDmgRes
18) --> Blazing Aura ==> AccEndRdxEndRdx
20) --> Consume ==> AccRechgRechgRechg
22) --> Acrobatics ==> EndRdx
24) --> Hurdle ==> Jump
26) --> Fire Sword Circle ==> AccEndRdxDmgDmgDmgRechg
28) --> Health ==> Heal
30) --> Stamina ==> EndModEndModEndMod
32) --> Greater Fire Sword ==> AccEndRdxDmgDmgDmgRechg
35) --> Tough ==> DmgResDmgResDmgResEndRdx
38) --> Fiery Embrace ==> RechgRechg
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If I was playing Mayhem from the beginning again I'd probably take Hurdle/Health/Stamina at levels 16/18/20 and delay PlasmaShield/BlazingAura/Consume until levels 24/28/30, but you can survive through the twenties with just Consume if you slot it heavily with SOs at L22+ and be careful to only run toggles you really need. Really I'd advise getting Stamina at 20, though - I did on my SS/Dark Brute and will on my forthcoming Electric Brute - it makes running multiple toggles, especially the End-hungry ones like Blazing Aura, much less painful for a Brute.

The only problem I have with Mayhem is that I'd like another Accuracy SO in each attack so I didn't miss so much against reds/purples & AVs/Heroes/EBs (and also for PvP), but I guess you can't have everything. I might drop the Rchg SO in Boxing/AirSup/GFS/FSC for an Accuracy and see how it works out, but Cremate & Fire Sword really need their Rchg SO in order that my attack chain has no gaps.

Hope this helps you with your slotting

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All Good Points TY

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You're welcome

Something else I remembered, playing my 40 Fire/Fire Brute last weekend (for the first time in a month), is that it's important to get into a good rhythm with your basic attack powers. On Mayhem I can fight non-stop if I use the following attack chain: Fire Sword, Boxing (on auto), Air Superiority, Cremate, Boxing (on auto), Air Superiority, then repeat - that sequence leaves no gaps. I only use Greater Fire Sword if my Fury is high against bosses/EBs/heroes/AVs that I want dead in a hurry, and I only use Fire Sword Circle if there are at least 3 mobs in range (I use Build Up and Fiery Embrace beforehand to maximise damage, too) - then the damage from those two big attacks justifies their high Endurance cost and animation time.

But I forgot that for the first few fights at the weekend and I kept running out of Endurance because I was just spamming attacks in any order and even had some moments when all my attacks were in recharge (because I used all the big attacks together, rather than spreading them out through my attack chain to give them time to recharge inbetween my fast attacks).

So just because a big attack has recharged doesn't mean you should automatically use it asap. Likewise if an enemy only has a sliver of life left then it's more efficient to kill them with Boxing or let your Blazing Aura finish them off - using a bigger attack would be a waste of Endurance.

As a Brute you're fighting against your Endurance bar as much as against the enemy My SuperStrength/Dark Brute works the same way, so it's probably true for all brutes - or maybe it's just my playstyle - but it works

As I already have a /Dark, and don't really like many of the other secondaries, if I do another MM I'd probably go Thugs/Poison. The L38 /Poison power looks like it would be quite tasty on the 3rd tier "bruiser" melee pet, and the poison heal should be handy as he won't be near the 5 ranged pets (though the /Dark heal should work great for the ranged pets, as it does with Robots if you keep them together, and probably Mercs too).

I've had End issues and of course Accuracy problems with both of my brutes until L22 - that's when you get SOs and hopefully have your Stamina 3-slotted (or Consume with a couple of slots - best to get both eventually). You can't really judge a brute until then - from L22 things will get much easier providing you slot things sensibly according to your playstyle. I think you may have to choose between whether you want a non-stop PvE playstyle or whether you want a dedicated PvP build - it might be difficult to do both.

On my Fire/Fire I slotted all the attacks with 1 Accuracy, 1 End Reduction, 1 Recharge and 3 Damages - that allowed a non-stop PvE playstyle (I had Stamina 3-slotted and Consume with 3 Recharge, 1 Accuracy), even though I usually ran seven toggles. But if you PvP a lot or play PvE on Relentless then you really need 2 Accuracy in every attack - so you'd have to drop one of the other SOs, either the EndRedux (would hurt your non-stop PvE capability), Recharge (would slow down your attack chain, unless you have Hasten) or a Damage (would slow down your kill-rate).

Your shields could do with 3-slotting with Damage Resist SOs as well - that pretty much goes for all brutes. Until you get your shields slotted most of your durability will simply come from the fact that you have more hit points than most other archetypes (everything except Tankers and Kheldians in dwarf form).

L21 is certainly too early to give up if your only problems are accuracy and endurance - both can be corrected by SO enhancements.

With my SS/Dark I played most of the first twenty levels only using my status protection (obsidian shield) - that balanced health and endurance nicely into an almost non-stop playstyle. You might have been running more toggles than you need at your level.

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Well my main problem with Pet. Gaze is that (atm at least) I can't stack it, it just doesn't last long enough. How many recharges/hold duration's do you have in it to get it to stack?

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Mine is slotted 2xAcc, 2xHoldDur, 1xRchg - I'm probably going to put in another Recharge or Hold SO at 39. Because I play on Ruthless I can't stack it on the red/purple bosses in my missions, but I might be able to now I'm L38 if my Dark Servant is up (correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like it uses petrifying gaze as well). Also, like MaX says, we can get another Hold power from PPPs.

I can stack it on lower con bosses and lieuts/minions/snipers no problem (perma if orange con and below). It's great for locking down particularly dangerous mobs or anything that:

- can stack area fire damage: i.e. Longbow Flamethrowers, Crey Plasma Scientists, Carnie Seneschals, etc.
- can scatter the bots: i.e. Longbow Nullifiers & Spec Ops (grenades), Tsoo Sorcerers (hurricane)
- can one-hit or really hurt a bot in melee: i.e. Tsoo Ancients, Carnie Strongmen, Arachnos Fire Tarantulas
- can do nasty ranged damage: i.e. Nemesis Snipers,
- can use nasty status effects on me: i.e. DE Fungi (AE sleep), Lost Anathema/Eremites (sleep/hold), CoT Earth Thorns (quicksand), Arachnos Night Widows (smoke)
- is immune to fear (Fearsome Stare): i.e. Arachnos/Rikti/Council drones, all Nemesis, Council Mechmen, Jumpbots
- summons aid: i.e. Sky Raider engineers, Rikti comm officers, etc.
- can teleport (annoying!): i.e. Sky Raider Porters, Tsoo Sorcerers, armoured Rikti
- has a nasty -acc debuff aura: i.e. Tsoo Sorcerers, some CoT Nerva Spectrals
- is trying to run away
- is hassling/threatening me while my bots are busy firing at another target (like when an elite boss has a minion/lieut with it)

See, lots of uses. Did I mention it's really handy against Tsoo Sorcerers? You can't always rely on Fearsome Stare or the Bot's photon grenades to fear/disorient a dangerous foe amidst a spawn, so Petrifying Gaze comes in very handy (and if there are multiple threats then I've got Howling Twilight as well).

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Hmmmm. I'm the same, I almost always have all my bots together firing at one target at a time rather than willy nilly, and I've also noticed I seem to attract aggro from other mobs whether I've done anything or not. Still, I seem to remember reading something about unconfirmed reports of a taunt aspect to the hench's attacks now (anyone now if this has been confirmed one way or the other yet?), if so it might get better in i7, and certainly easier to handle with Bodyguard.

I'm actually finding that I'm using much less controls at the moment - I've gone off petrifying gaze and now use just fearsome stare most of the time with an occasional tar patch, so I think if I take the renade it might up my control and damage output, provided (like Zaprobo said) I use it sensibly, ie. after my bots have taken the alpha and grabbed all the aggro. *Shrug* Definitely gonna have to test it out when I hits 35 I guess.

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I really like Petrifying Gaze and use it a lot - I tend to drop it on anything that manages to avoid the Fearsome Stare, and if that works on everything then I'll lock down a flamethrower, grenadier or lieutenant, just so they don't get the chance to fire back (even at the greatly reduced attack rate forced on them by fearsome stare).

Something I found that worked well on tough spawns last night was Fearsome Stare, then drop a Tar Patch and Darkest Night (neither of which break the fear's mezz effect), then lock down the most dangerous mob with Petrifying Gaze, then order the bots to attack. I can't see myself being that over-cautious with most spawns, but if you happen to be facing a spawn that's heavy with lots of flamethrowers and grenadiers then it's worthwhile.

Fire damage is the only thing I fear really - a few flamethrower units dropping Ignite patches on your bots is going to kill some before you can move them, no matter how good your reactions are, especially on those Oranbegan CoT maps where bot control goes all to heck (poor pathing, bots attracted to crystals, portals, etc.).

I had a nightmare against Infernal last night solo on one of those maps (he was a purple con EB). Infernal and his demons were nuking for silly amounts of fire damage (one of his nukes took me down to under 50HP from full health), my bots kept being attracted to the red damage/pain crystal in the same room (ignoring my stay/follow commands), and Infernal's silly health regen and the fact he has tons of HP cos he's a Tanker made it very difficult - hardest thing I've faced in 36 levels (I'm not expecting Baphomet to be much fun either, though). Even Twilight Grasp couldn't keep my bots alive and I was lucky not to die myself at certain stages. I went through 4 sets of bots to kill him (had to run away after the 2nd set, cos my summons were in recharge). Fun challenge though, despite the pet control frustrations - boy was I glad when he finally died

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Oh yeah hadn't thought of the aggro it'd get me... hmmm. May have to test it out on test server then.

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Despite popular belief, attacks are doable as a Mastermind, just not as an opening blow. Wait until the mobs are around half health and then wade in - the amount of damage you're doing is negligible compared to your henches.

This works very well with bots post-32 when they're very AoE heavy anyway.

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I was just worried it would tip the aggro scales too far towards me. Aggro seems to be getting a bit choppy and even sometimes unpredictable for my Bot/Dark at 36 now.

Sometimes even if I do nothing and let the bots have the opening attack, I still get a few mobs shooting me or running in and melee'ing me. I can understand getting aggro when I've thrown down a Tar Patch or Fearsome Stare before, or at the exact moment, the bots attack, but not when I haven't done anything - unless the bots are passing partial aggro on to me? It's only become noticeable in the last 4 levels (I'm 36 now) so I don't know if it's something to do with the bot AEs, or whether it's just because mobs can hurt me a lot more now when I do get aggro, so it seems much worse.

Of course it depends on spawn size and make-up as to what's safe or reckless in a certain situation - I play on Ruthless 99% of the time and solo I'm fine, but duo-ing or trio-ing the larger spawns mean that leading with Fearsome Stare can cause the spawn's "woken up" alpha-strike to (almost) kill me, even if I time it so the bots attack just as the Fearsome Stare lands (need to get them locked down before they scatter into the charging melee mobs and stand-and-fire ranged mobs - if I've learned anything it's that my bots and I survive better in a controlled environment than a swirling chaos - it's part of the reason I hate large teams with my MM when I loved them as a brute, cos I just die too fast from unpredictable/undeserved aggro).

After many levels of only using Darkest Night on bosses (and above) I've started leading with it again on some full spawns, so their accuracy is debuffed enough that I can survive the alpha - but only if they're mainly melee mobs and I have room to lay a Tar Patch in front of them so they bunch up when they charge me (allowing a Fearsome Stare to be dropped after the alpha has been fired) - otherwise they just scatter out of it as the melees charge forward and the ranged stand and fight (obviously its easier with spawns made up of mainly melee or mainly ranged mobs).

Something else I do, if there's a box or corner nearby to hide behind, is cast my Fearsome Stare and Tar Patch, then get out of sight before I order the bots to attack - that works fairly well on indoor maps, the alpha usually being spread over the assault/prot bots (and they're tougher than me ).

So that's why I'm overly concerned about the aggro that Photon Grenade could give me - I already feel on the edge of getting aggro most of the time now. With increasing mob damage I just can't survive much attention. Maybe I'm playing too much like a Controller with pets, or a Blaster/Corruptor with a control set (seeing as I only allow my bots to attack what I tell them to), but it's worked fine since L20 and still kinda works now. My bots aren't so good at taking alphas, especially if there are a lot of flamethrowers or grenades in a spawn.

"Tanking" just isn't an option for me on my difficulty level until I7's "bodyguard" is in, and I'm not sure it will work for me because I always force the bots to attack my target and concentrate their firepower (remembered my Sun-Tzu Art of War ) otherwise fights just take longer and don't work out so well.

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Hit lvl 33 with my bots/dark and I'm thinking of getting the photon grenade power at 35, anyone know if its any good? I figure it might stack nicely with my prot bots photon grenades, hopefully enough to even be able to stun bosses (between them they *seem* to be able to stun a lt now), but I seem to recall having read that it was a rubbish power... anyone have any thoughts? Or about slotting it - am thinking 2xAcc (hate missing, especially when you *need* that guy stunned) and then either 2xrecharge or 1xrecharge, 1xdisorient (I have slots free )

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I haven't tried it - I always avoided it because I didn't want to draw too much aggro to myself (that low HP thing again, heh). If I did get it then I'd probably slot it 2xAcc, 3xDmg, 1xRchg, but then I'm a damage-addict

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Valkhurst offers some sound advice there the only point i would raise is for a */dark mm i find stamina a godsend.

Your always active as a /dark MM with you secondaries spamming TG not only for your bots but team mates too..chucking down tarpits..petrifying gaze.....and if you go into the leadership pool i find without stamina running assault, tacticts, shadowfall and darkest night with everything else you fire off can take its toll on your end....and if you take burst and use while nothing else is 'up' (can be counterd by carrying CAB's mind). Especially if its a long fight and maybee you've lost a bot or 2 (they do smetimes run off) replacing and upgrading them mid fight will not kill your end.

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I don't run Tactics (my bots have 2 Acc SOs), rarely need to re-summon bots after the start of a mission, and most of my teaming is with friends who don't need me to play healer much (though I did for a brute friend the other day and got 1-shotted by Infernal’s cone attack, hehe), so I’ve never really had End problems in combat. On a long mission I might have Rested once or twice before, so I could probably have skipped Stamina, but I guess it’s quite handy now for teleporting across Nerva - I can arrive at mission doors with full End!

I've had much less debuffing (and less button bashing!) to do past L20 (Fearsome Stare) and again past L32 (2nd upgrade) - everything dies so fast - so that has cut down my End use. I only tend to use Darkest Night on boss/EB/AV/Hero mobs, and because of Fearsome Stare I only tend to use Tar Patch for its -res debuff on those same "tough" targets - in fact I only use Tar Patch for its “slow” effect against fear-immune targets like Rikti drones, Council Mechmen, etc.

So it’s weird but End hasn’t really been a major issue for me, certainly not compared to my Brutes/Stalker. Maybe it’s because I rarely do big teams anymore (I just find I get too much incidental debt - actually my MM’s first death(s) were in his first ever full pick-up team at L18) - I much prefer smaller teams with a few friends where everything is much more controlled/efficient - my MM doesn’t have the HP to survive the chaos of a full pick-up group

So I guess it depends on playstyle and circumstance as to whether you need Stamina. Guess that's true of all ATs, but I'd find my Brutes painful to play without it

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Hell as a bot/dark MM i think i do more button bashing than my claws/regen scrapper. (just wish i could squeaze hasen in for the setup )

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Hehe I find MM about the most relaxing and least busy AT I’ve played for lack of button bashing, certainly compared to my Brutes, Scrapper and Stalker. Debuff-wise I’m about as busy as my Corruptor, but I only have one blast - also pet command is fairly sorted now after 35 levels, so while I micro-manage them as a group (they're never in Aggressive stance) I hardly ever do individually, so it doesn't involve too many buttons.

I thought about Hasten, but we shouldn't need it after the I7 reduction in the recharge timers of the Upgrade buffs - I hope

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Anyhoo Great fun......just master controlling you pets with commands and you'll fell invincable.....until you get your [censored] handed to you by a load of AOE mobs with knockback

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Hehe yeah - I fear fire-based mobs, and I mean that both literally and emotionally I fear/hold and kill flamethrower mobs first, then those with grenades/knockback. 99% of the time when I lose a bot it’s due to massed Longbow flamethrowers, especially when they stack those Ignite patches (I make sure I move the bots asap, heh). The other 1% is when a drone gets one-shotted by a Tsoo Ancestor, Carnie Strongman or an EB/AV/Hero - still, better a drone than me!

As for keybinds I made up my own, all next to the WASD for fast easy access (Aggressive/Defensive/Passive on C V B, and the orders Stay, Goto, Follow on T G F). One thing I picked up is that by having the “Pet Attack” command on the side-button of my mouse I can easily order my bots to attack my target at the same moment I’m hitting the keyboard to lay in a debuff, which works well for me. I also have the “Stay” command mapped to the other side-button, so if my pets get suicidal and decide to charge forward into melee or pursue a fleeing enemy I can stop them immediately before they aggro other spawns - that’s saved my life (and theirs) a few times You might find it handy if you have a mouse with side buttons - on my logitech one they keybind as "button4" and "button5" (button furthest from my thumb).