Local_Man

A while ago, I decided I wanted to try out the Trick Arrow Secondary. I had already taken my Ill/Rad to 50, loved Illusion, and thought that the two would synergize well together. I was right.

TA fills a lot of Illusion's holes. Illusion lacks an Immobilize, TA has one. Illusion lacks a slow, TA has one. Illusion lacks a sleep, TA has one. Illusion lacks an AoE knockdown and AoE damage, and TA fills that hole too. Illusion's AoE hold is PB AoE, and TA adds a ranged AoE hold.

Most importantly, Illusion needs debuffs to make Phantom Army better, and that's what TA has. Illusion can be entirely played at range, except for Flash. TA works best from range. TA needs a little time to set up the debuffs, and Illusion gives TA that time by sending in Phantom Army to draw aggro.

I specifically tried to take as many of the TA powers as I could. I chose Hasten/Super Speed for travel just so I could fit in one more TA power. I only skipped Group Invis and Flash from Illusion, and only skipped Flash Arrow from TA -- not needed as much when you can be invisible. I went with the Fire APP to give me two additional ways to light my Oil Slick. In place of the last two APP powers, I picked up the medicine pool just to shorten down time.

After playing the TA set, I feel I made a good choice. Illusion is probably the best primary to pair with TA as Illusion can really make use of all of TA's tricks.

Every primary pairs well with Radiation.

Grav/Storm has some unique aspects because the AoE Immobilize, Crushing Field, does not stop knockdown. Therefore, Freezing Rain's knockdown will continue to work when the group is immobilized. On the other hand, sets like Fire, Earth, Ice and Plant, whose AoE Immobilize includeds -knockdown, can use that with Tornado to turn Tornado into a pure damage power, and Grav has to rely on its hold for -knockdown. Another advantage of Storm -- Thunderclap is a Mag 2 Stun that stacks with the Stun in Wormhole so that you can stun bosses. And for added fun, the storm powers blow around the stuff from Propel.

I find that Grav is my least favorite of the Controller primaries, but I'm still working on my Grav/Storm. Once you start filling in some of the Storm powers, it gets to be a lot more fun.

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One question. Can you slot a karma in both hover and steamy mist for +8 KB protection? I don't recall ever seeing UNIQUE listed on karma. So I think the answer is yes but want to be sure.

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Yes, you can mix and match knockback protection. Two Karmas, a Karma and a Steadfast Protection, or a Zepher or mix in the knockback set with Mag 3 protection.

One -4 mag knockback protection will stop about 95% of the knockback in the game -- but there is a LOT of knockback. Every now and then, more than one foe will stack enough knockback to still knock you on your tail. A few foes have massive knockback that will exceed that Mag 4.

Getting your knockback protection to Mag 7 or 8 will stop about 98% of the knockback. It is up to you whether that extra amount is worth it. Personally, I would only consider it for Tanks or Scrappers who don't have knockback protection in their sets.

OK, now that I'm looking at the build, I have a few other tweaks:

Replace one of your common Heal IOs in Health with a Numina's Heal, to add 12% regen.

The two Performance Shifters in EM Pulse are pretty much wasted. End Drain isn't worth much unless you can fully drain 'em and keep 'em drained. You could move those slots to a lot of other places . . . put a Miracle + Recovery in Health, or 4-slot Performance Shifter in Stamina . . . or do something else.

You could put two more Zephers in Hover for a little more Defense.

Usually, Mutation gets Recharge, but you have enough global recharge so it only reduces the recharge by a few seconds. You could consider Torrent (using those two slots from EM Pulse) as an AoE damage power instead of Mutation, but Mutation is a great Rez.

On Flash: A lot of folks say it stinks, but it is the same as Glacier and Cinders, except the animation is slightly longer. It is, in my opinion, far more useful than Choking Cloud on an Ill/Rad. I use Flash more that EM Pulse, even though EM Pulse is actually better, because Flash does not have the 10 seconds of no endurance recovery and Flash is adequate most of the time.

Flash is first available at level 6 . . . and at that level, it stinks. But once you can slot it up for Acc, Hold and Rech, it is useful.

If you are looking for more places for a LotG, then you may want to change to Ice, Earth or even Psi APP, as each of those have a power that takes Defense. Some folks trying for Perma-PA also take Group Invis, too, just as another mule for a LotG.

Personally, my Ill/Rad is not max slotted. I like him the way he is, with a mix of Hami-Os and some IOs. I like playing alts too much to spend huge amounts of time and Infl getting every perfect IO that costs hundreds of millions. But, some folks like that, so maybe others can give you some more detailed tips.

It would be easier if you posted your build with the data link, so we could pull it up in Mid's, too. (I'm too lazy to copy and paste . . . )

A few suggestions:

1. Move that Numina Regen/Recovery proc to Health! It will always be on there, and you can slot something that will actually help the power in Radiant Aura.

2. Choking Cloud: Love it on my Fire/Rad, but I hated it on my Ill/Rad. As an Ill/Rad, you don't have the tools to make good use of this power. (a) Your damage is single target, so you have to use a lot of endurance to take down foes -- Choking Cloud will use up too much of that endurance. Also, because you don't have much AoE damage, AoE containment doesn't help you much. What little you need can be handled by EM Pulse and Flash. (b) Phantasm's knockback will often tend to knock foes out of the Cloud. (c) It takes a while for the Hold to hit, and it hits only some of the foes. You need some kind of AoE to keep foes in the area long enough for the pulses to hit the majority of foes. The only thing you have like that is an AoE control power is Spectral Terror . . . but since Spooky is perma, why do you need Choking Cloud?

Fire/Rad has Flashfire+Fire Cages to get the initial AoE control, and then can run in with Choking Cloud and Hot Feet. Illusion doesn't have the tools to make Choking Cloud all that effective to be worth the slots or endurance. Personally, I like having both Flash and EM Pulse -- with two PB AoE Holds that fire off instantly, I can run in invisibile and fire off one or both. I mainly use this when PA is recharging.

3. You will want to get more recharge on Phantom Army. They are more imporant as a control power than as a damage power, although the damage is certainly important.

4. As alternative slotting at level 50 (starting at 47), consider putting 3 Enzyme Hami-Os (ToHitDebuff/DefenseDebuff/EndRdx) in Radiation Infection. You get max slotting on this power in only 3 slots, allowing you to move three slots somewhere else.

5. I like full the Efficiency Adapter set in AM, but replace the EndMod/Acc for a common Recharge if you don't have enough global Recharge.

6. Power Boost doesn't do all that much for an Illusionist, as you don't have all that many non-pet control powers. Take a look at the other thread talking about APP powers for Ill/Rad. There's some pretty good discussion in there.

I personally didn't bother slotting up Defense so much in SI. I just went for 2 Luck of the Gambler, and 2 EndRdx. And if you are going for defense, the really go for it -- get the Ice APP for the Ice Shield.

When I first got my Imps, I used 4 slots: Acc/Dam and Dam from Blood Mandate, Acc/Dam and Acc/Dam/End from Brilliant Leadership. That gave me small boosts in the two areas I needed most, 4% Regen, 1.5% Recovery. I later added a slot for Recharge.

I'm currently running 3 Acc/Dam Hami-Os, 2 Recharge, but I'm waiting for when the Soulbound Allegiance set is fixed to work in Imps to throw those in.

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Can you use Fallout on a dead Imp ? Figuring out a Fire/Rad build for a next toon, i was wondering...

Thanks in advance

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Doesn't work on pets, only teammates.

Fallout is also just about the most situational power in the game . . . Fire/Rad has too many other good tools to take it. If you want some details on the effect of Fallout, take a look at the Rad section in my Earth/Rad guide, linked below.

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Hi, been playing a Mind/Storm for quite some time now. All the way up to 22 and finally have the hated Hurricane.

I spent a lot of time getting a handle on the KB from Gale and now plan to do the same thing with Hurricane. Seems to pretty straight forward to me. Keep the baddies pinned to the wall, hopefully a corner, and let the team do its thing.

Any suggestions, beyond 'DON'T USE HURICANE', would be very helpful.

Plus I can see being able to replace a Tank with this set. Am I simply deluding myself again like when I thought Elec/Elec Blasters would be fun?


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I use Hurricane very situationally. I may go full missions without turning it on, but I really like having it.

(a) It is a good "panic button" power, both for myself and to protect my teammates. If we overaggro, Hurricane knocks foes away, and does a huge ToHit Debuff to let the team get away.

(b) Hurricane makes an Immobilize almost into a hold, but it takes some work. Immobilize a group and then push them around or "kiss" them with Hurricane to debuff ToHit. That means they can't move and they can't hit you.

(c) Cul-de-sacs and corners. Anytime I see a cul-de-sac, I know it's fun time for the stormie. Pop on Hurricane, stand in the entrance, then throw out Lightning Storm, Tornado and anything else you get. Watch the baddies fly all over the place while getting defeated.

(d) Corner pull Debuff. Shoot a baddie and hide around a corner. Turn on Hurricane. As soon as the foes turn the corner, they are hit with the debuff and pushed away, making them sitting ducks for your team. This works very well on small teams doing hard missions.

Lots of other uses. It takes some practice to learn the radius of the repel compared to the radius of the debuff. But I can't see skipping Hurricane on my Stormies. I generally bind it to a key or mousebutton for easy on-off. For example, if you want to bind it to the "H" key, use

/bind h powexecname Hurricane

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Hehe, controllers make for such fun, I suppose there really is no reason not to try them all, and figure out which works for me right?

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I really like controllers because the Primaries have enough different in each one to make the playstyle different. For example, Ice and Earth appear to be quite similar, but there are enough differences to actually make them quite different, depending upon how you build them. My Earth Controllers are specialists at ranged AoE control. My Ice/Storm uses Arctic Air to focus on support in melee, and his playstyle is set up that way.

Fire is a melee AoE damage set, while Illusion is more a ranged single-target damage set with distractions instead of control. Plant is AoE damage and control from range, but weak on control and damage to single targets. Mind has strong single target damage and control, but weak AoE damage with good AoE control in upper levels. Grav has good single target ranged damage, and its three unique powers.

Then when you add in different secondaries, you get completely different characters. My Ill/TA plays very differently than my Ill/Rad or Ill/Storm. Fire/Kin vs. Fire/Rad. Mind/Rad vs. Mind/FF. All very different.

Not the same as other ATs. My Broadsword Scrapper is pretty similar to my Katana scrapper. Even my Axe tanker is pretty similar. There is not a big difference in feel between SR and Willpower, once they are slotted up - both secondaries can be mostly ignored once you are high enough level after you turn on your toggles.

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I can put this in steamy mist or if I spec into hover, I can put it there.

I am guessing though its only active when the power is active?

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No, the Mag 4 -knockback protection is always on once the IO is slotted. So, that's good news for you.

Both the Karma and the Steadfast Protection -knockback IOs can go in Steamy Mist -- I would't spec into Hover unless you really want Hover.

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Such good suggestions everyone!

I am so intrigued by so many of these combos, I guess I'll just have to make...them ALL

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That's kind of what I did . . . 6 of my 10 level 50's are controllers, and I have a few more almost there.

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Sadly these are the people that pretend fire/kin is some sort of cheat and that Jack Emmert personally adjusts your toon from 1-50 when you log on a new one.

Kin is a very exhausting secondary. Try rad next time....its not nearly as bad and Am is a great buff since it does +rech +dam and +rec to yourself and whoevers nearby.

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I agree with this -- I find my Fire/Rad to be overall more fun than my Fire/Kin. My Fire/Rad is the first thing I pull out for TFs or other post-50 stuff on that server. He's the one I want to maximize the IO slotting for. The combo of Hot Feet and Choking Cloud is terrific.

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That is a great argument for a bit more a multiplicative view of trollers. And with a lvl 46 Ice/Sonic, I have felt the pain of not being able to use Ice Slick far too often.

Perhaps I, yet again, need to rethink.

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If you are the only controller on a team, then Earth/Rad is simply wonderful. Earth has the ability to control each group while the team wipes them out. One Earth Controller can make a bunch of AoE Blasters very, very happy. Just let the tank go in to draw aggro, throw out one of the three AoE controls, put Quicksand underneath for the huge 25% Defense Debuff stacked with the other Defense Debuffs, and the Blasters can have an AoE field day, knowing that everything they throw out there will hit. EF gives a quick 22% damage buff.

On a team of multiple controllers, you can have one "primary" controller (Earth or Ice), and several "secondary" controllers. I consider Illusion and Fire to be good options for secondary, and maybe Grav -- but it works much, much better if the secondary controllers wait for the primary to use his control first, and then adapt to what has been used. (i.e. don't use Fire Cages on Earthquake or Ice Slick).

Some Fire Controllers can't resist using Fire Cages constantly, which is why an Illusion Controller should always be welcome as a secondary controller -- no AoE immobilize. Illusion's main AoE control power is a fear (Spectral Terror a/k/a "Spooky") that does not interfere with a knockdown power. Furthermore, if the team is missing a tank, Illusion can fill that role. If the team wants a team "spy" for hunting glowies or finding the boss for a "Kill the Boss and his gang" mission, Illusion works for that. (For example, when you need to get the glowie, Illusion can use Deceive, Phantom Army and Phantasm to get foes away from the glowie so he can click it without fear of drawing aggro.) For a TF build, Recall Friend is a huge benefit on an Ill/Rad. (My first Ill/Rad uses Teleport for travel for this very reason -- added Hover at 49 for convenience.)

The ability to stack AM from multiple Rads should be considered. Want the easiest TF ever? Full team of Fire/Rads or Ill/Rads can plow through anything the game has to offer like it is nothing, other than maybe Hamidon, the only thing that can kill Phantom Army.

I have long espoused the opinion that Ill/Rad is the most flexible build in the game. You can Tank, Blast, Control and Defend. The same build works solo, on small teams or on large teams. An Ill/Rad can always contribute to a TF, often more than other controllers since Phantom Army works on AVs when most direct controls don't when purple triangles are up. You can boost your own and your team's Recharge, Endurance and Damage, you can heal, you can rez, and the debuffs provide huge benefits. Phantom Army is one of the best powers in the game, and with Deceive and Invisibility, you can help missions be completed faster.

An Earth/Rad will help teams with AoE control, but an Ill/Rad can do many different things.

Late to the party -- I would have recommended Earth/Rad as the best all-purpose TF controller. I know you wanted to avoid Rad, but it has so many useful tools. AM to buff the team with recharge, endurance and damage, an AoE heal, the great Rad debuffs. You get a rez and controls. Even as early as level 6, you can provide AoE control -- Stone Cages + RI means that foes can't move and have trouble hitting you and your team.

All the defense debuffs in Earth make it easy for AoE blasters to reliably hit everything. The AoE controls in Earth make it easy to keep foes in range of the toggle debuffs.

Storm is a great secondary . . . but on a TF, I find that I have to keep a lot of the powers held back to keep from scattering everything. The ToHitDebuff in Hurricane is limited to melee range, meaning that if you want to debuff foes held in Stone Cages, you need to be running around, pushing foes around or "kissing" them with the edge of the hurricane. Plus, there is no Regen debuff, while Rad has Regen debuff in both Ling Rad and EM Pulse -- even though the effect is substantially weakened with AVs, it still makes a difference.

Also, Rads are additive -- more Rads on a TF makes for a better TF. Storm requires coordination to keep from stepping on each other's toes.

That is one of Ill/Rad's great strengths . . . One Ill/Rad is good, but more Ill/Rads are better. Other controllers tend to step on each other's toes . . . I can't tell you how many times I have given up using Earthquake or Ice Slick on a TF because the bloody Fire/kin kept spamming Fire Cages. Ill/Rad doesn't conflict with other controllers almost all the time.

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I'll pretty much just repeat what LM says anyways

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Heh, yep, same here.


But I have two Earthies at 50 and to be honest, if I didn't love variety so much, I'd have one of each secondary. It's taken all my willpower to not roll an Earth/Storm especially given my love for /storm too.

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<<Looks at his Earth/Storm controllers on both Guardian and Freedom>> I couldn't resist, after taking both Ice/Storm and Ill/Storm to 50 . . .

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This prob could easily apply to an any Primary/Kin controller I guess, but my toon is a Fire/Kin.

So the situation is that this is turning out to be the most exhausting toon I've played now that I've gotten her to higher levels.

Tossing smoke & the other holds, trying to use all the Kin powers on enemies too, keeping the fire monkeys up and making sure everybody has SB & Increase Density up... It's a severe workout. More than any defender or tank I've played.

I *do* manage to do it all. Usually by throwing a few fire or kin powers at baddies, then SB/ID on one teammate, then repeating the entire pattern, moving down the list to the next teammate for the buffs. etc... That seems to sort of work.

I know some trollers only buff the main tank, or forget about SB altogether, etc... I figure my job on a team is to contribute the maximum amount I can bring however.

Any suggestions for making this a bit easier? Macro chaining powers perhaps?

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There are a lot of differing opinions on this:

First, I suggest you set up binds for buffing your teammates. I use the numberpad -- just hit the button that corresponds with the number on the team list, and that teammate is selected and speed boosted. I have ID on the zero key, but I don't use it most of the time. I can if I want to, in case a teammate gets mezzed, but most of the time, the timer is too short. I then use Alt-Numpad for my Imps. (yeah, I still speed boost them.)

There is another system I have seen where you set the number of teammates, and then the binds will boost one and then automatically switch to the next down on the list. It is some pretty complex bind programming, but if you can find an old program called CityBinder, it has those buffs built in. If you put "CityBinder" in Google, you should be able to find the download site, but the author stopped supporting it a while ago so it is missing some of the newer powersets. Still works great, though. I use CityBinder on all my characters, but it sometimes takes a little tweaking.

On Smoke -- I have it on my Fire/Kin, but only use it when it is really needed. I don't bother unless I think the team needs it -- like when we are setting up to take on an AV.

On the "SB Plz" thing . . . If I have forgotten, I see it as a friendly reminder. If I'm doing my best, I generally don't worry about it and do my best. If it gets annoying, I send a tell to the offending person . . . and if he still doesn't quit, then I do. One time I told the team that he was getting annoying and that I was going to quit . . . and the leader kicked him.

To maximize AA's effectiveness, you need to max slot for Confuse. To allow your character to do anything else, you need to maximize EndRdx. Nothing else really helps the power be more effective, so if you can do that AND add some damage procs, that's good slotting. I have the two Confuse damage Procs and was able to keep max Confuse and EndRdx. I don't have my build handy at the moment, but you should be able to figure that out in Mids. I think it is a combo of EndRdx/Confuse and Confuse from the purple set, one more EndRdx/Confuse from Malaise, a common EndRdx and the two confuse procs, from Malaise and Cacaphony.

Accuracy, as far as I know, does nothing in the power. As an Ice/Storm, you have other slow options, so Slow doesn't help that much. Currently, the Contageous Confusion proc will confuse your pet, so that's not ideal -- but that's supposed to be fixed with I-15.

There is a lot of debate about Freezing Rain. Some folks slot it for Recharge, and then as many procs as you can fit. I have 5 of the Lady Gray Defense Debuff set, plus a common Recharge, but that may be taking the defense Debuff farther than it needs to be. Still, the set bonuses are nice.

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I remember having a earth/storm controller on a long lost account now, level 32. Way back in issue 4 or so.

Since coming back I have seen a grand total of zero earth controllers and pretty much no earth advice or discussion as of late and it's hisheartening, has it received a nerf? Or have other "Damage Troller" sets overshadowed it like in the past?

It's a shame because I really love this combo and I'm remaking it, sure. Stony was the dumbest and perhaps slowest pet next to jack frost (Sorry ice ) but I was a controlling fool. No enemy could do anything in my presence. Reguardless of enemy group.

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That's funny. I have been responding to a number of Earth threads lately where folks have had questions about the combo or had earth-related discussions. I have even been running into several Earth controllers in game. Still, I find other combos to be more frequent -- mosly Fire/Kins and Fire/Rads.

And for good reason. The game mechanics have been more turned towards doing damage, and those two combos do a LOT of damage. Illusion and Plant are also more focused on damage. And, of course, some folks hate the "poo" graphics that can obscure vision. But with more folks coming to appreciate Storm for the damage in the later stages of the game, I see a lot of Earth/Storm builds. I'm working on one myself, after taking Ice/Storm and Ill/Storm to 50, and I expect it to be a better build than my Ice/Storm.

Rocky is much improved. With improvements to his AI and the change from Stone Mallet to Seismic Smash, he has an effective attack chain now and provides better tanking. Seismic gives him a Mag 3 hold. Plus, you can buff his Resistance by 20% with two procs, making him virtually unkillable. Even more, you can use either Sonic or Therm to boost that resistance even higher.

In fact, with his better AI, better damage and high resistance, is there a better pet?

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Can someone help me with this. If you put a Dam Proc in a Aoe Dot, how does that work. will i get a chance to hit every target in range every tick. Thank you for your help.

Thank you for any help.

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And, yes, it will have a chance to hit every foe in the area of effect. For example, it you put a damage proc in an AoE Immobilize that does DoT, upon activation it will have the same 20% chance to do whatever kind of damage on each of the foes in the area of effect. If you have multiple procs, each foe has the same multiple chance.

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Hey there!

I was wondering if this is a good combination? I think I read EC has some of the the top control, and I know RE is pretty good. Do they synergize well together?

Also, how does the Animate Stone work? Is he like a tanking pet? (I think I saw that somewhere.)

My friend and I are rerolling for hopefully the last time for a while. He's making a fire/fire blaster. Will we have a pretty decent duoing system? (I set them up, he knocks them down is my thinking...)

Any not-to-miss powers here? Thanks for any replies!


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Mental Maden beat me to it. Take a look at my guide, linked in my sig. It not only has descriptions of the powers and a suggested build, but detailed strategy suggestions, too. It is a bit long, but every word is vital to your very existance . . .

Earth/Rad synergize very, very well. Personally, I feel that Rad is the best secondary for Earth. The ToHit Debuff really makes a difference, since many of your AoE control draw aggro.

Animate Stone (a/k/a Rocky, Stoney, or Poo-man) has become an excellent pet, much better since the recent changes to his AI. My guide does not have these recent changes. Now, he throws a rock from range, then usually closes to melee to use Stone Fist and Seismic Smash (instead of Stone Mallet). Seismic Smash has a hold in it. He has high resistances, and you can make those resistances better by planning to put one or two of the +10% Resistance for Pets procs in. Your heal in Rad will easily take care of the little bit of damage he takes. He does very good damage and draws a lot of aggro.

You should plan to skip Stone Prison, Salt Crystals, Choking Cloud and Fallout. Stone Prison and Fallout actually can be useful. Mutation is skippable if you really want to fit in Leadership or something like that, but you really don't need it -- your -Defense makes Tactics unnecessary, and EF from Rad will give you a damage boost. (And Mutation is nice to have if you partner with a blaster -- they tend to be suicidal.)

Earth/Rad and a Fire/Fire Blaster are a great combo. Your control and -Defense will make his AoE damage powers much more effective. The main thing you lack is damage, which he will have plenthy of.

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I wanted Fire because I also wanted Fireball with its fast AoE damage (not a cone) and for Consume for those occasional situations where I run low on endurance. Conserve Power will reduce your use of End, allowing you to slowly recover, but not get it all back in one shot.

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Get it all back in one shot so you can waste it again? All while you are dealing with the mobs being spread apart because your phantasm is knocking them over the place. You're not going to convince anyone that CP can't be more useful than consume is to an ill/rad.



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Well, I convinced me, by trying it out.

One Example of when I use Consume are shortly after using EM Pulse. Conserve Power just won't cut it then. Another is if I'm almost out of Blue and I want to fire off AM . . . Consume refills my blue bar and then AM increased the regen rate. In fact, I can think of several times that I have run into a group while I'm already somewhat low on End, fired off EM Pulse, popped a small blue, fired off Consume and then AM, and I'm ready to go.

I actually don't need it very often. Most of the time, my endurance is fine. CP works if you are expecting to do something that will use a lot of endurance, but Consume works in those moments when you suddenly realize that you are surrounded and out of of endurance.

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I tried Primal in the days before Torrent was added. I agree that it is more appealing now, even if Power Boost doesn't do much. Ice with Frostbreath is also more appealing. I wonder why Fire can't add Fire Breath to make it match.

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Haha, would be sweet but sweet dreams.

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Still, Seismic Smash makes the Earth APP very tempting.

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Especially on a super high recharge build like perma hasten/am ill/rad build. IIRC 5ish second recharge on it.

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Not all of us have spent the hours and hours and millions necessary to make a max recharge build. My Ill/Rad was 50 long before IOs, and I had a max Hami-O build. And I was (and still am) quite happy with him. I have slowly pulled some Hami-Os out and replaced them with some IOs, but it would take five or six respecs and a ton of influence to make him into a Max build . . . and I like playing alts too much to invest that much into one character.

So, I don't believe in giving advice to folks assuming that they have a MAX-MAX build. I assume that folks have a fairly normal build with commonly available IOs that are not extremely expensive.

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QR

There is no point at all taking repel as a power to use with a grav/kin, because you can always stand in singy if you want the effect and have the bonus of not losing endurance.

You could take it just to slot kinetic crash if you are recharge-starved, but that it probably more of a dominator thing.

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Well, after level 32, you may be right. But before level 32, Repel is one of your few defensive powers. I'm not suggesting that everyone should take it, but it is far from useless. My Kin/Elec and Kin/Rad defenders use Repel periodicly as a postioning tool or panic button. I have even saved the team a few times with it.

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Scratch that last question. I team the majority of the team, but at heart I am selfish...and /Rad >>> /Therm in my mind for that (evn though flaming Poo-Man sounded exciting ).

I appreciate all the replies. I have decided against Fire primary. I am really having trouble deciding between Grav and Ice though. I would choose Ice hands down...but I am afraid I will HATE JF. I really like the Singy though.

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No reason at all to hate Jack Frost. He is a nice, fairly well behaved pet. He uses his hold frequently. He usually throws a snowball, then runs into melee with his Ice sword. He does good damage. He doesn't die all that often. I find he often will defeat foes while I'm not looking.

Personally, I prefer Ice over Grav. I have found the low levels on a Grav controller to be frustrating. It has a real lack of AoE control, and the one cool low level power, Propel, is a constant source of frustration on teams -- since teammates usually kill off the target before the animation ends. Still, some folks seem to love the Gravity set.

But for Ice, you get an effective AoE control at 12 with Ice Slick, and effective AoE control with Arctic Air. Yes, the damage is low, but if you are on teams, that doesn't matter as much.

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Thanks for the clarification on Mind, Local.

One of my great frustrations with CoH is how dramatically some ATs change in the mid-game. So with Mind I see that it is OK in team control until level 26-32, then it gets quite strong. Whereas Earth is pretty strong in team control from level 8 or so and just gets stronger.


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Mind has good single target damage in low levels. It then gets better and better AoE controls, but its damage seems to drop off compared to other sets.

Earth, on the other hand, has good AoE control from the start, and it gets better and better . . . but dinky amounts of damage. At 32, Rocky makes a big difference in the amount of damage you can do. . . . so Earth gets better at damage in later levels.

Personally, I love the Earth control set. Mind is OK, but not as much fun to me.

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We so frequently talk about how sets perfom post level 32 that we forget the absoluet PAIN of leveling late blooming classes for dozens of hours.

The fun I have in CoH is almost 100% on large teams. If an AT is not fun by level 10 on large teams I just cannot bear to 'grind it out' until it gets better.

I love my fire/kin but I would never go through the pre-Imps game with her again. My Ice tank sits unplayed at level 15 - it feels useless in the pre-level 20 game and solos at a glacial pace (see what I did there?)

I just do not have enough free time to dedicate to ATs that get better after 20+ hours of play. It feels like work playing My ice tank or my Mind controller on 8 man teams and soloing is boring for me. I need an AT to be fun and useful out of the gate.

Am I impatient or is that poor game design? Not sure

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The game design, I think, is to keep your interest by holding back on the best goodies until later levels to get you to keep playing. If you got all the good stuff up front, wouldn't the later levels get boring? However, I can understand the temptation to power-level past the low levels to get to the good stuff.

If you are always on large teams, you should be leveling up pretty quickly, especially if they are teams with knowledgable players. I'm able to get my lowbies up fairly quickly with my usual group, and there is only 4 of us.

On that Ice Tank, it is tough in low levels, especially before stamina. I hate playing tanks pre-stamina. But the nice thing about Ice is that at level 26 almost all your endurance issues will be gone. Energy Absorbtion is fantastic. Just step into the middle of a crowd and hit that button to fill your blue bar and drain about half of theirs. Find an Electric Blaster or Defender with Short Circuit to team with, and you can drain crowds. I still find my Ice tank at 40 or so to be a little squishy, but I can usually get by using both Hoarfrost and Hibernation. Eventually with some IO slotting, she should get a little tougher.