Local_Man

Earth control is simply not a farming build. Fire and Plant have decent AoE damage, but not Earth. It can "farm" slowly with a lot of investment in procs, but you will sacrifice some of your best aspect -- superior ranged AoE control.

Like MM, I feel that you generally should get the most out of your primary and secondary. That may change with a character built for a particular team, but it applies in standard situations. MM has played a Thermal up to 50 and I haven't, so I would take her advice on Thermal, as she is (almost always) spot on with what my opinion would be.

From what you describe, it sounds like you prefer to stay out of melee. In that case, you probably want to look at the Ice or Fire APP sets rather than Earth, since Seismic Smash is melee and Fissure is very short range (virtually melee). The Psi set's main benefit is mez protection, and Psi Tornado is decent AoE damage over time. Primal's AoE damage is limited to Torrent, a cone, but Conserve Power and Power Boost can be very nice for many builds -- I like Primal for Mind Controllers. Obviously, concept wins out over practicality in many cases, so if your concept fits with the Earth set, stick with it.

On the Earth side, I generally skip Salt Crystals and Stone Prison. Most of the time, Fossilize or Stone Cages will do the job that would be done by Stone Prison. Salt Crystals looks nice, but is not very effective.

You may want to consider fitting a Stealth IO in your build somewhere. It is almost like adding some defense.

First . . . do whatever you need to do to take Volcanic Gasses! It is one of the best holds in the game! Far more important than Stone Prison. Slot it up to the max with Hold Duration and Recharge. And by the way, it is "Earth Control" so the set is referred to as "Earth" rather than "Stone." I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but "Stone" confused me for a second, and it may confuse others.

Second: How are you using your Stone Cages? In general, Earth Controllers operate with three AoE controls. (a) Stalagmites followed by Stone Cages. (b) Earthquake. (c) Volcanic Gasses. All of them can have Quicksand cast underneath them to stack -Defense and the slow will catch any foes who somehow get away. Each of the three have strategic times when that one is better than the others. Stalagmites+Stone Cages is the best at stopping the "alpha strike," but will usually not hit bosses. Earthquake will often knock down bosses, as long as you don't have knockdown resistant foes. Volcanic Gasses will even hold bosses, but it takes a few seconds for it to stack enough mag.

It is pretty common for Earth Controllers to take a few hits. Stalagmites may miss a few. Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses may take a few seconds before the group is controlled. But no controller primary has better AoE control than Earth. Whenever possible, let the Tank grab aggro first. If you don't have a handy tank, then use your AoE controls and hide around a corner to reduce the damage you take until the group is controlled.

Third: It sounds like you haven't taken much from your secondary. It may be that your secondary has good stuff that will help your character be more effective (I haven't played Thermal very far, so I'm not as familiar with it as other sets.) I'm not a big fan of the Fighting Pool on a controller, as usually there are powers that can make you be a better controller. It might be a good idea for you to post your build so folks can make some suggestions. Without a build, we're just guessing.

Fourth: The Earth APP set's Rock Armor has the highest Defense you can get from a power. And yes, it is only Smashing/Lethal, but most attacks have a Smashing/Lethal component, so the Armor will apply. Switching to the Ice Armor will give you slightly lower Defense. Fire, Psi and Primal are all Resistance armors. If you insist on keeping Tough, then Primal has the highest Smashing/Lethal Resistance to stack with Tough. I'm not that crazy about the other powers in the Primal set for an Earth Controller, but that's just me.

Earth Control is very low damage. Only Ice is lower. Thermal doesn't add any damage powers, either. If you want to solo, you will probably want some other damage powers. If you like Fly for travel, take Air Superiority. The APP sets have damage powers -- the Earth APP has Seismic Smash, a great melee single target damage power that also has a hold built in. However, if you want to stay at range, which may be a good idea, consider the Fire or Ice sets. Fire lets you choose between Fireball and Fire Blast at level 41, so do you want single target damage or AoE? Then Fire has Fire Shield with Lethal, Smashing and Fire resistance, Consume for recovering endurance and Rise of the Phoenix, a self Rez power that does damage. Ice has a good single target blast, and then two AoE damage powers in Frost Breath and Ice Storm -- plus a nice "panic button" power in Hibernate and a defense-based shield.

There are lots of options depending upon your playstyle and what you want. Take a look at my Earth/Rad guide for some good information and strategy on the Earth set, and Thermal has some similarities to Rad in a few areas. Then work up your build in Mid's to post, and folks will help you out with it.

Oops, is that what that Icon is? I couldn't tell. I'll try to change it.

Yep, I changed it to the question mark. But it didn't seem to change on the thread. Doh!

I think "petcom" only works for Mastermind pets. I just checked and "/release_pets" works.

The macro that I use is:

/macro pets release_pets

I'm interested in this, too. I took Air Superiority, on my baby Spines scrappers, but I'm curious what the "common wisdom" is on these boards.

Air Sup works as an opener before lunge>Impale and the knockdown mitigates damage.

Whatever build I'm playing at the moment . . . I have taken all but two of the primaries to 50 so far, and all of them are good for one thing or another.

Enant has a "pick a controller" guide in the guides forum. Don't even bother posting a vague question like that in the Controller's Forum without some explanation of what you are looking for.

Well, Mark Martin used to drive the Viagra car in NASCAR . . . it really stood out from the competition . . .

At least with Earth Control, you get two other AoE ranged control options (Volcanic Gasses and Stalagmites+Stone Cages), plus your ranged location AoE slow (quicksand). Ice Control has only Ice Slick, plus Shiver if you took it for ranged control. So the "immob spammers" hurt Ice Controllers more than Earth Controllers.

I found Ice Control to be more melee oriented, using Arctic Air as my main AoE control after using Ice Slick to decrease the initial Alpha. (Similar to Fire Controllers using Flashfire+Fire Cages, then running in with Hot Feet.) To add to this, Glacier, like Cinders, is PB AoE, so you can't use it for ranged control. So negating Ice Slick is almost like negating Flashfire for Fire Controllers -- the rest of the team can take up that slack in many cases, but it certainly reduces the effectiveness of the Ice Controller when someone else spams Immobilize on Ice Slick.

I have planned to put it in there. Since PGA is usually the last of the debuff arrows that I shoot off, I'm very curious on how well it works. Alas, I have a lot of other alts I'm working on now, so I'm not devoting much time or many resources to my Ill/TA.

I'm kind of fond of his name, though. I wanted something that would show the Bow & Arrow nature, as well as Illusion. Illusion -- an Illusionist is an entertainer -- so I came up with a guy who was hired by the French Foreign Legion to entertain the Legioneers with his trick shooting and magic/comedy act. His name is "Beau Jester." I was really delighted when the Jester costume came available, too, but he was made long before I had heard of it.

Mind's single target damage is very good in the early game, but drops off some compared to Illusion in the later game. Mind has a good attack chain very early with Dominate-Mezmirize-Levitate. As each of these powers animate, the next one in the chain is usually recharged. Illusion has Blind-Spectral Wounds, both of which animate quickly, and then a gap. That gap can be filled with Air Superiorty, but that requires going into melee. However, starting at level 41, with a little recharge in Blind and Spectral Wounds, and then a Blast power from the APP sets, you can get a great and fast attack chain of Blind-SW-Blast-SW.

On the other hand, since Mind's three single target attack powers already chain well, Mind won't gain much from adding in an APP blast. After level 41, I think Illusion has better single target damage.

Spectral Wounds (and Phantom Army and Phantasm's decoy) has "spectral damage" that heals back after a few seconds. But as long as you can defeat the foe before the heal-back, you keep the spectral damage. After the heal-back, the damage from Blind-SW is about the same as Dominate-Mezmerize. By defeating foes quickly, you get substantially more damage out of Illusion. Illusion actually does more single target damage killing lower level foes than higher level foes for this reason.

Illusion has no AoE damage . . . other than its pets. PA can attack up to three foes at once, and Phantasm has Torrent.

I would not say that the AoE Immobilize in other sets do "decent" damage, other than Plant's Roots. The damage is so low that slotting damage procs is probably better than slotting damage.

Mind is clearly better at standard forms of AoE control than Illusion -- Illusion only has a PB AoE Hold and its Fear Pet, while Mind has an AoE sleep, AoE ranged hold, AoE cone fear with damage and an AoE ranged confuse. But Phantom Army and Phantasm's decoy are very powerful distractions that also provide damage. In many cases, these are better than "control." PA can keep lower level foes as well as an AV, EB or Boss busy for 60 seconds, and the decoy for 30 seconds at a time. And this distraction works even if teammates are beating on the foes, so it does not have the limitations of a sleep power. I would say that Illusion is better than Mind in most late game situations. Illusion works well on all teams and and in most situations.

Most powersets have a throw-away power. Mind's telekinesis is not useless, but is very situational. Same with most other sets, like the sleeps in Ice, Earth and Plant, phase in Grav. Illusion has two invisibility powers, making one of them expendable. Other sets have powers that have benefits other than damage or direct control -- Plant's Spirit Tree and Fire's Smoke. This helps to make the sets different, but the powers contribute to the overall effectiveness of the powerset. Illusion's invisibility is far superior to the power pool, and it has a big effect on the set, since Deceive and PA can be cast without drawing aggro. It allows an Illusionist to go up close and confuse or distract the biggest problem in any group, no matter how big the group is.

Illusion's strength is to divert aggro, but that's while still allowing you and your team to attack -- which is a problem with Sleep powers.

Since Illusion doesn't have any AoE damage powers, other than pets, it has no use for AoE containment. It still has AoE containment in Flash, but by using Blind before SW, you get containment for single target attacks. Certainly using Mass Hypnosis before Terrify is a nice way to double the damage from Terrify -- for that one shot.

You said that Illusion's damage is "really really bad" without PA? I already mentioned how Illusion's single target damage picks up in later levels. So you think that Terrify does more damage than Phantasm in the long run? Or even Terrify + Mass Confusion? Care to bet on that?

Agreed. Secondaries with debuffs substantially improve Illusion because of Phantom Army. Secondaries with Recharge help PA get out faster.

Mind is certainly a powerful primary, but I feel that it probably gains less from its secondary than any of the other controller primaries. It doesn't need more control, and it doesn't really have a lot that will benefit from a lot of debuffs.

Illusion/Trick Arrow is a fun combo -- I have one at 50. I picked it because I wanted to experience the Trick Arrow set. I found it a tight build -- I skipped only Flash Arrow from TA (because I mainly wanted to play TA), and skipped Group Invis and Flash from Illusion. To fit in Fitness, Hasten and a travel power, I went with Super Speed for travel. The build was too tight to fit in a different travel power. However, as soon as I get my 60 month vet level, I'm going to change him over to Fly. At the APP level, I took Fire Blast and Fireball to light the Oil Slick, then fit in Aid Other and Aid Self from the medicine pool. If I had to drop another power, it would probably be Poison Gas Arrow, but that one does have its uses. And don't forget the standard advice for any Trick Arrow character -- take Tech or Magic as your origin so you have a power to light the Oil Slick.

I found (a) it relies more on Phantom Army than my Ill/Rad, and (b) I play this character entirely at range. Standard strategy was send in Phantom Army, then stay back at range, fire off all my debuff arrows (glue, acid, disruption, pga), and then use Blind-Spectral Wounds to do ranged attacks, refreshing the debuffs as needed. Use added controls (ice, entangle, Oil Slick, EMP arrow) as needed. It was nice to be able to hold bosses with Ice Arrow followed with Blind -- but I could also control bosses with two applications of Deceive. I used Oil Slick Arrow to fill the gap when Phantom Army is recharging most of the time, with EMP Arrow in reserve. I used Deceive a lot to get foes who were coming after me to turn around and go after their fellow bad guys.

I still have a long way to go before he is fully IO'ed out. But the first thing to get is the Contagious Confusion Proc from the purple confuse set for Deceive -- it turns the single-target confuse power into an occasional multi-target power.

I absolutely agree . . . in the big picture. But when I'm playing my Ice or Earth controllers, well then whatever I'm trying to do is clearly more important than anything anyone else is trying to do, so I feel fully justified to get frustrated when that teammate who just killed off the entire spawn messed up my plan to have them bouncing on their tails . . .

Because everyone knows that taking longer to kill everthing is better, right?

But you also make an unjustified assumption -- that the other guys know what they are doing. If I can control the spawn and mitigate damage to the team, but the Fire Controller is immobilizing everything in sight just because he can -- and everything in sight is shooting at us, then I feel a little justified in being frustrated.

I have a lot more trouble with Fire and Plant controllers. In part, because there are a lot more of them. And, there are some Earth controllers who don't take Stone Cages because of the complaints that it is too obtrusive. Fire/Kins constantly spam Fire Cages. Plant controllers understandibly use Roots constantly because it does a lot more damage than other Immobs. If either of them are on the team, I just figure I might as well not bother with Ice Slick.

Well, actually six. Spectral Terror a/k/a "Spooky" is a stationary pet. And technically, every cast of Blind spawns a short duration pet that generates the sleep aspect, but that one shouldn't really count.

I tried coloring Spooky dark purple -- he looks very spooky that way.

Let start off by saying that I love the Illusion set while I'm kind of meh on the Mind Control set. I have three Illusionists at 50, while my highest Mind is 36. I've played several other Mind controllers into the 20's though.

Mind starts off with three great single target powers that give it an effective attack chain. Dom, Mez, Lev. It solos well in lower levels because of this. It's AoE control is weak early, with only Mass Hypnosis to rely upon. Later, the set gets much better at AoE control, with Mass Hypnosis (a sleep that draws no aggro but sets containment), Total Domination (ranged AoE Hold), Terrify (Cone fear power that does damage -- Mind's main source of AoE damage) and Mass Confusion (an AoE Confuse power that draws no aggro -- this is the power that replaces a pet for Mind Controllers). Mind has no "bad" powers (such as sleeps in Plant, Earth and Ice, or Dimension Shilft in Grav), but the most skippable power is Telekinesis, a toggle hold cone-push away power -- it is situational and takes some thought to use well. Every thing else is good, and Mind builds are typicaly tight because there are so many good powers.

None of them are really "wow" powers, though. Visually, it is pretty unexciting, too (but that can be improved thanks to I-16). I have found that a Mind Controller's damage seems to drop off in higher levels just when other controllers are just coming into their best damage thanks to their level 32 pet. My buddy with a level 50 Mind/Kin acknowledges this was his impression, too. Personally, I like pets. I like a buddy who will watch my back. Mind control is lonely.

Take a look at my Ill/Rad guide to see my overview of Illusion. I much prefer Illusion.

Actually, Singularity does do some damage. He has lift, Crush and Grav Distortion, all of which do damage. But he doesn't do a whole lot of damage, as Singy is more of a controller-thingy.

And I agree with the others. Fire/Storm is the clear choice if you want end game damage.

To kind of "pile on" with some of the other comments, you might notice that I said that I would try to enlighten the person first.

In effect, we are having a problem with stereotyping a player based upon a misconception of his powersets when we know (a) that misconception is mostly not justified, and (b) a good player can get around such problems even if they are justified. I know that I wold be somewhat upset if I was on that person's team, and he decided to kick me based upon a misunderstood stereotype. (And he was wrong about Phantom Army!) There are good players who can use knockback at just the right times to be effective without being harmful to the team. And how do you think people get to be better? They make mistakes and try again -- but they won't try again if they get kicked.

If I invite a player onto my team, and he plays poorly, I try to suggest ways that he might improve. If he's trying, I don't kick him. I only kick players who are inconsiderate of others or rude or arrogant jerks. I expect the same courtesy from others.

I like the addition of RotP to the Fire pool. It gives another unique reason to take the pool and provides Controllers an option they hadden't had before. I don't need healing flames on my */Rad or */Kin or */Therm or */Emp Controllers. And does a Fire/Kin/Fire really need more PB AoE damage? There's enough screaming for the nerf-bat already. But none of the primaries or secondaries have a self-rez.

Ice has many similarities to Earth Control, but Earth is a little better, so Ice isn't chosen as often. It is the lowest damage primary for controllers, which is probably its biggest problem. Ice provides good team control, however. The most popular combos seem to be Ice/Storm (Storms makes up some for Ice's lack of damage, and goes with Ice thematicly), Ice/Rad and Ice/Kin (because Ice can be played in melee).

Ice control is somewhat unique in that it can easily be built as a melee controller or a ranged controller by the simple choice between one of two slow powers: Arctic Air or Shiver. AA provides good toggle damage mitigation for melee fighters, so an Ice Controller makes a good support character for melee characters. AA is a slow/confuse/afraid aura that seems to mitigate about 60-70% of melee damage once slotted with enough Confuse enhancements. Shiver is a huge cone of slow/Recharge debuff, so it is easy to stand back from the fight and slow all the foes to a crawl.

Where Earth has three ranged AoE controls (Stalagmites+Stone Cages, Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses), Ice only has one, Ice Slick. And other controllers casting AoE Immobilize powers almost entirely negate Ice Slick. Ice's own Frostbite will negate Ice Slick -- so you don't use it on Ice Slick. On my Ice/Storm, I didn't take Frostbite until level 30, and that was only to get the -knockback for Tornado. Use Frostbite for Containment? Ice has almost no damage, so Containment was not much of a concern. I focused much more on control. Ice's AoE Hold is PB AoE, making it a little less useful, and you don't get it until level 26. It does not have a stun to stack with the AoE Immob.

I made my Ice/Storm to be a melee character by taking AA and skipping Shiver. (If I had wanted to control from range, I would have taken Earth, instead.) Depending upon your secondary, it may be worth taking AA and Shiver together (but I had Snow Storm). In general, I like to let the melee guys go in, cast Ice Slick in the area, and then rush in with AA running to mitigate as much damage as I can while controlling individuals with Block of Ice, single target damage with Chilblain. When there is another controller on the team who wants to Immob everything (Fire/kins . . .Oh, did I mumble something?), then I focus more on the AoE slows and single target controls than on knockdown.

I enjoyed taking my Ice/Storm to 50. It was my first 'troller with either of those powersets, and the ability to alternate Ice Slick and Freezing Rain to give a perma-knockdown patch was pretty nice. Ice is a cool looking powerset (pun intended). AA is my melee slow, while Snow Storm is my ranged slow. And Storm adds some badly needed damage in the late levels. My Ice/Storm can actually solo, which is tough with other secondaries paired with Ice. However, Ice is one of two primaries that can make good use of Rad's Choking Cloud, so Ice/Rad is worth considering. Also, because Ice can be a melee set to support the melee fighters, it goes well with Kinetics.

I really like to take my Ice/Storm on the ITF, as the slow/recharge debuff is one of the more effective control/debuff effects on that TF. Knockdown also works well even when other controls don't work. Tornado is autohit, great against AVs and EBs.

Whoops -- You're right, that you can cap Damage and Recharge with 4 Dam/Rech IOs. I think I like my slotting because it gives some EndRdx and 22% Regen, 2% Recovery in a build that could really use those bonuses. Beides, the Chance for Stun is only 10% for a Mag 2 stun, not worth slotting.