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You get both when you switch, but only the one you're currently aligned with can be used. The icons even look the same, which can be maddening when you keep wondering why your demonic won't recharge .... Then you finally get smart a day later and notice Eye of the Magus in your powers list and have to switch them out and rewrite your keybinds.
Also, you really don't want to chain all those powers. Use as needed, otherwise cast time is gonna bork your offense. -
I don't see the build now, but I could have sworn your suppressed melee defense was 43.5 or there abouts. That's why I said I'd add that little bit. One of the IO changes made once upon a time dropped my defenses from 45/45/45 to 45/43/40 and I absolutely felt the difference. Since then I try to stay as close as humanly possible to 45/44/43 minimum.
As for the extra slot, really, I can't answer that for you. Personally I wouldn't proc the immobilize, and the extra slot in Surveillance could be a good thing. I know when I reduced Surveillance to 1 slot, I've kinda wished I hadn't, but I've also never found a slot to spare to put back in it. However, You probably have enough slots in it already. Huntsman are all about maddening compromises. Never the best at anything they do, but good at all the things they do.
And yes, you're right about Accuracy and AoE attacks. However, I simply planned on putting one purple set into one power as the opportunity arises. With that +15% purple bonus the build will be fine. Purple bonuses, as I understand them, always apply regardless of other factors. -
I thought I took resistance into account. I used the standard pylon formula. I'll have to check the AV's more carefully, as well.
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You should have already built for recharge, if not, fix it. You're regen, Healing and Regen should be covered, as well as Recovery.
If you have MoG and Shadow Meld ... Adding Barrier will be silly good.
Shadow Meld -> MoG -> ShadowMeld -> Barrier -> Shadow Meld -> Void -> Shadow Meld -> MoG -> Shadow Meld -> Demonic -> Barrier -> Shadow Meld-> MoG -> Shadow Meld -> Void -> Shadow Meld -> .... Hold on 20 seconds and another one will come around. But really, if by now you're still so deep in the pile that you need it, you bit off way more than you have any right to complain about. -
I'm assuming interface procs last about 10 seconds, max 4 regardless of source. I've not double checked this assumption.
With that in mind, 5 attacks every 10 seconds will saturate the T4 75% chance of Fire Dot half, While you'll need 16 Attacks to Saturate the 25% chance of -res half.
For the T3 Variants it would be 8 or more attacks per 10 seconds.
Optimal will simply be anything at or above 5 attacks per 10 seconds, since 16 will never happen and the Fire half appears to be considerably better than the -res half.
So most likely Yes and Yes, but It never hurts to check the numbers. -
I've noticed on Pylons, the Warworks are doing less damage than on AVs. I don't know if that's a factor of the 50+1, or if it's a difference in resisting their various powers. But I'm only seeing 160 dps on my last few pylons, where I was seeing 200 dps on AVs. Clockwork were Noticeably lower dps, but I haven't tested them exactly enough to figure out just what that number was. I haven't run the Clockwork vs AVs yet, only pylons. That's when I noticed Comparing Warworks AV dps to Pylon DPS didn't match. To get accurate tests with the pets vs AVs, I tend to need a stacking immobilize, that I don't have.
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- I would get another 1.8 Melee defense minimum.
- I would work in some Achilles -res in at lease one ST and one AoE.
- CT:O is a waste on any build with IOs or after you reach TT:L.
- Travel powers are optional now days. You don't even need Ninja Run or Beast Run. You can get by simply by slotting Sprint, Hurdle, Swift, then buy a Jet Pack in GVille.
- - Get the GVE Jump, and (Ninja Run or Beast Run) to finish out the build for Masters Runs, if you still have mobility issues.
- Frag is both nice and not. Only experience will be able to tell you if you like it. I don't.
Here's my build as a reference: Huntsman - Wlyfen - Lucia (Pets) - Defender - Rev 2a [i19]
and other builds I've collected from time to time: Google Docs Build Archive Google Docs and/or Gmail Account required for login. -
Quote:Yes, redraw is hurting it more than I realized. Depending on the test run, it's 5% to 8%. Assault is a steady and unwavering 6.5%. I'm going to be changing the build back to double assault and another power (see other post).So, the redraw on Shatter Armor pretty much makes it a -10% resistance debuff,
I do not think ION is allowed to chain to the same target more than once, although it is currently bugged. If it can hit the same target more than once, that's a huge hole, meaning it could hit 2 targets up to 20 times each. I can't imagine that would be WAI if that's what it's doing.
Defensively I'm using rebirth, void, and Aid Self. I really can't say that I could survive stuff as deep purple in the quantity I am if I gave up any of the three. Rebirth is tremendous. I'm chaining Rebirth, Void, Demonic, Rebirth, Void for 180 seconds of greatness. Toss in some Oranges here and there and you can chain that even longer. The -damage from void is working very much to my liking.
I went with the 75% Fire Reactive. At 8 powers per 10 seconds, the 50% fire 25% -res *IS* probably the better choice. As I work toward the T4, I may do some testing on that question.
The seers are likely the weakest offensively. Their Fortitude is 5% Typed based as I recall, instead of Vector Based. Most builds are Vector Based, for instance I have 45 Vectored defense, but only 35 Typed defense. An additional 5% Typed won't even bring typed up to meet vectored, which means vectored is still the defense used in to-hit checks. I'll have to double check the Fortitude +Dam numbers, those may or may not be worth it. However, By going Support, you give up 1/3 to 1/2 your pets offensive firepower. Given that firepower is up to 200 dps, I seriously doubt even a 25% +damage enhancement to you will be able to increase your personal dps by 35 or greater. If your damage profile is anything similar to mine that will only increase your damage by 10%, or say 25 dps. Advantage to the full combat offensive models. What I don't know yet, is if Clockwork are Better or Worse than Seers. At present from the minimal testing I've done, I'm assuming the order of damage is: Warworks (Melee), IDF (Hybrid), Clockworks (Ranged), Seers (Control). My incomplete testing to date supports this guess. But I have way to many combinations yet to be tested.
Quote:Originally Posted by Person34... if a NW can't survive a melee encounter, ...
I've also soloed half or more of the Lambda Sabotage Missions. However, I've never had to solo all 10 crates/Tubes. My teams were never THAT bad. I think 6 was my max, and that surprised me. The need to solo 1 or 2 is pretty normal, but 6 was shocking.
Lastly, Post your build, and let us judge for ourselves. The rest of us have posted ours. Maybe we'll see something we like and incorporate it into our builds, maybe we wont. But the truth is, you can't just discuss one power out of context. It's the build as a whole that matters. Even the changing of one minor slot can have very complex and drastic implications in a build. It's the build as a whole, as well as the matching playstyle that really matter. -
Fortunata is my choice. It's Control and Armor. You can build to be almost as effective as a controller, or almost as effective as an SR Scrapper, or anywhere in-between.
Doms have twice as much control. With all the control they pack, armor is almost moot. So I'd say it comes down to playstyle. -
Which power would you pick ?
Someone else mentioned patron redraw still hurts widows, specifically with gloom. I decided to do some testing, and that testing confirmed that redraw does effect at least some of those powers. If anyone knows more specifics, I'd love to hear them. Is it patron powers, or is it any non-claw power ? Is it just the Patrons, or is it Dominate, Psy Tornado, and Psy Scream too ?
My In-game testing shows that due to redraw Shatter Armor only increases my damage by 5% to 7%. Double Assault vs Single Assault increases by damage by 6.5%. Shatter armor only helps the team on very hard targets, but by a larger margin. Assault helps the team on all targets including AoE, but by a smaller margin per target. That makes the two powers a wash both personally and for the team for my purposes.
With that in mind, Shatter Armor is no longer a requirement in my build. Dropping it lets me pick up Assault and one other power. So the question is:
Shatter Armor: Great for AVs, no real help on softer targets.
Total Domination + Assault: Another spawn breaker and/or panic button as well as fair additional damage vs all targets including AoE. I did like having this in the build when I was running a control variant.
Psy Tornado + Assault: 50% KD which could help with using Aid Self in combat, with a frequent recharge. It's also additional personal AoE damage where AoE is one of my weaknesses. Lastly Assault adds fair damage to all attacks including AoEs.
Mu Fences + Assault: The same as above, but faster activating for better DPA, but slightly less damage per burst, and no KD at all. However, Immobilze is nice, and this one does damage. It's also additional personal AoE damage where AoE is one of my weaknesses.. Lastly Assault adds fair damage to all attacks including AoEs. I haven't tested it, but I'm assuming I'll have redraw on Mu Fences and Psy Tornado Both. If however Nado doesn't cause redraw and Fences does cause redraw, then the DPA point is moot. At that point it's only a question of Immobilize vs 50% KD.
If shatter armor didn't cause redraw problems, I'd keep it. But the testing shows conclusively it only adds about 6%, not the 20% it should be adding. That just isn't enough for what I was wanting it to do. I'm really seriously looking at dropping Shatter Armor for one of the above combos, I'm simply equally torn between all three.
Fortunata - Isabella - Confuse 4b [i19]
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1.08x difference with/without Shatter Armor. So redraw is cutting into the .20x by just over half.
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Stacking even small amounts of resist with defense can be beneficial. So far, I've not found it worth the cost of powers and slots on my Veats, yet.
Did some testing with my Fortunata variant of the above build. Ran some +4x8 Missions as well as beating on some EBs and AVs. The testing shows I'm running 205 dps raw in-game with Shatter Armor->Followup->Lunge->Dominate->(Swipe->Strike-Folowup->Lunge-Dominate->Repeat 3/4 Times then Start Back at Shatter Armor). It should, in theory, be a bit higher; however, all those clicks and redraws add up. I calculated it at 230 out of game, and in game it ended up 205. That's with Double Assaults. I just respecced to drop one assault and pickup Confuse again. That will drop me to 195 Raw, but let me warp the bosses minds as well as the herds.
With T3 Reactive Interface it was 265 (T3 Reactive added 60 dps)
With T3 Interface and T3 Warworks it was 530 (T3 Warworks added 235 dps*)
*Note: Double Assaults as well as boosts like tactics and adrenalin boost seem to have disproportionate effect on these pets as compared to players. I'm guessing this is due to the fact that standard critters have no enhancements.
I'm happy with anything over 180. 265 just makes me giddy.
That's all with the Defensive Build: Cardiac, Rebirth, Reactive, Warworks, Void
I'm working on Ageless and Musculature now and will be testing the offensive build soon: Musculature Core and/or Radial Paragon, Ageless, Reactive, Warworks, Void
The offensive Variant should run close to 220 Raw, or another 15 dps. That's a lot to give up for just 15 dps, especially considering I just gave away 10 dps to gain back the additional confuse.
I did not test without Shatter Armor, yet. I'll have to do that too.
I also performed less than perfectly. It's so many clicks and powers to keep straight. sometimes I did Shatter at the right more_or_less 20 second interval, other times I was one chain late. I mucked up so many things, I really don't know how anyone can perform perfectly all the time.
Interface made the AVs 4 times more likely to run. I had only minimal running on the raw runs, but it was a nightmare when I turned on Interface. Running AVs really bite. I lost 20% offense to the runners and had to recruit someone with Web Grenade to help, so that the numbers came out correct. That part slurps.
I still have trouble defensively with Pylons. Aid self is biting way to deeply into my Pylon times. Not even worth posting them. It's Either use Greens/Oranges, Rebirth, or Aid Self. I was trying to avoid using Inspirations since typically pylon times don't allow for inspiration use. T4 Barrier will likely help a bit. That's on my to-do list for the Veats. -
Probably Fire/Cold. The Cold Domination can take out hard targets while the Rad Emmission takes care of Area Softer targets. Between the two you'll cover all the bases.
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I prioritize Defense as Melee, Ranged, Then AoE. A few points off on AoE won't make or break you. However, It's good to get both Melee and Ranged capped. I'd go with the 80 recharge and 45/45/45. I might consider 90 or 100 recharge with 45/44/40 defenses.
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I calculate a 90 second Burn Time with your build above*. IE, you can fight 90 seconds non-stop before you bottom out. I aim for a minimum 120, and prefer more. That means you're not entirely self-sufficient. You still need rest, blues, recovery temps, external buffs, or ageless. In-game you may be fine, after all it's not hard to come by external buffs and temps. I've run characters with a 90 second burn time and been ok. Experience tells me, I prefer the 120, and despise 60. If you're happy with 90, it does give you the widest options for Alpha/Destiny Combinations. I see 90 and I'm somewhat anxious. (Before IOs, 90 was a really good number)
Optimal Musculature Radial Paragon Slotting would be for around 90% damage, with the rest bypassing ED.
Optimal Musculature Core Paragon Slotting would be for around 85% damage, with the rest bypassing ED.
Procs can be a significant boost to your damage output.
*I didn't calculate your exact build, That'd take me an hour, I used a similar build profile with your endurance recovery and usage numbers. -
I got some of the healing badges on a MA/Regen with Aid Other back around i7. It was surprisingly useful on small teams. However, I really would not recommend it for anything other than Concept or RP builds.
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Quote:Great line. Love it.Willpower is the one you marry. Regen is the one you have the affair with.
I have a love/hate relationship with regen. When it's good it's great, then it's dead. The old saying of "If it can't kill me in 10 seconds, It can't kill me" is very true with regen. Unfortunately there are quiet a few things that can kill you in 3 seconds if you don't watch yourself and hit all the right buttons at all the right times.
My vote is Kat/WP, despite the fact my third most played is Kat/Regen. -
Quote:This is why I'm a Melee Based Fortunata. I think I used 2 purple IOs, and maybe 2 Hami's in my Original build. However, I admit I'm upgrading to a Purple Confuse set (very cheap for a purple), and 3 more Hamis (cheap Hamis at that). However, A good Fort build does not require Hami's or Purples. I think my original build ran about 1 billion. Up to about 2.5 billion now, just guessing....The fortunata's advantage, meanwhile, is their bag of other tricks. You can get strong single target and area control capabilities while providing the same team buffs as the night widow, having nearly the same passive survivability (which would then become superior survivability when your control is factored in to the picture), and more area damage output options. You also have the option of dealing some psy damage, which can become an advantage in praetorian content and against the increasing number of boss enemies who use Unstoppable in taskforces and tip missions. And you still do nearly as much single-target damage as the night widow, which is enough to make a lot of scrappers jealous...
Everytime I die as a Fortunata, I pine for Elude.
Everytime I die as a Nightwidow, I pine for Psychic Wail, Aura of Confusion, and Confuse.
The Fortuata version is better for the team, the Nightwidow version, better for soloing. But it's a very close thing. -
Quote:I basically agree with all of this.Redraw does hurt dps. I'm really not a fan of any patron pool attacks for night widows at this juncture as a direct result of having tested that out. Shatter armor might work, because its debuff has a long duration, but you're trading 2 powers and an intrusive double-weapon draw to get it. Plus anything really worth using it on (ie, archvillains) will probably resist the debuff anyway (resistance resists -res innately). Musculature alpha's pretty much 'invisible' to your play, comparatively. Since my widow's my main, I've made the effort to get both a musculature and cardiac very-rare alpha, and now I'm looking at having the choice between at least a rare of ageless core, rebirth radial, and barrier core destiny buffs depending on the situation I'm in.
So far I've only been using barrier, and mainly in the incarnate trials themselves, but it's been extremely good to me. In more normal content I'd say rebirth is probably a better choice, while for pylon testing or 'pure dps' it'd be ageless + musculature all the way.
Follow up beats the pants off of build up. And then spanks it. And sends it to daddy for the belt after that. Buildup is a 20% tohit buff, 80% damage buff for widows. It lasts 10 seconds and will have a 20-25 second recharge time. Followup double-stacks to 20% tohit, 60% damage, permanently. You can also put the gaussian proc into follow-up and have the chance of it firing every time you use FU, which is more often than once every 10 seconds like you get in TT: Leadership, and unlike TT: Leadership in FU it will always fire while you're attacking and thus will benefit from it.
The best seamless, practical attack chain I've tested for widows is FU-Slash-Lunge-Strike-Swipe. Without any incarnate powers or external buffs, this was doing 222.5 DPS (6:45 kill time) in pylon testing for me while having a friend tank the pylon so I was just purely attacking (this was the same test session I just did to determine that using gloom actually would be bad...). I was running TT: assault and had +16% dam buffs from my IO build (total +31% damage, and then 60% from FU, and more from the occasional gaussian proc), and I used Recovery Serum to make end management a nonissue for the sake of the test (cardiac or ageless should cover that just fine too). Using a reactive very rare interface and musculature core paragon, I later managed to get the pylon down in 5 minutes flat with that chain.
I've been unable to make a 4-power attack chain with Slash that doesn't rely on unsustainably high +recharge buffing. I've been able to run FU-Slash-Lunge-Strike with Force of Nature or Adrenaline Boost buffing my recharge, but only briefly with an Ageless - when it's first fresh.
Redraw was supposed to be fixed to not effect dps as much with most sets. However, my own testing also shows this does not appear to be the case for NW and Forts with Shatter Armor. You gain some, and you lose some simultaneously. Use sparringly. My attack chain is right at 5 seconds, so every 4'th chain I use Shatter Armor. This gives me a net gain.
Shatter armor is a (20% - redraw) damage boost, even when resisted. The resistance is porportional to the resistance. The sum result is you still do (20% more damage minus the redraw delay). I don't have a number for what (20% - redraw) equals, but I'd put it in the 15% range.
Musculature with Ageless is also a 15% to 20% damage boost. No reason to not do both as well as Shatter Armor. Then keep other Alpha/Destiny Options open as well. I'm working on Cardiac/Rebirth (Defensive) and Musculature/Ageless (Offensive). My jury is still out on Cardiac/Barrier. I already have Demonic, and while another 30 seconds is nice, Typically I think the lingering effect of +regen sways me in favor of Rebirth over Barrier.
I can't get a seamless 4 power chain, I always have a small gap.
Aid self will indeed completely flat-line your offense. Regardless, I prefer to be alive. Maybe I just get in over my head too often.
Eviscerate vs ... You understand it's one of your weaker attacks, even if it's 1 point higher than the competition. It also has a longer duration. That means your entire chain, as a whole is lower. It's only a benefit if you can consistently hit 2 or more targets. Proc it, use it in groups, but as a ST attack, use something else. If it's Eviscerate vs Dart Burst, I'd probably go with Eviscerate, but I'd have to look at both builds as a whole.
The whole chain approach is also why I'd slot all those attacks better. a couple of attacks under-slotted hurts the whole. I calculate whole chains, not individual powers. It's a pain, takes longer, but you get better end results.
My personal build is: Night Widow - Isabella - Melee - Rev 0a [i19]
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- I took Eviscerate, Shatter Armor, (Web Prereq).
- He Took Poison Dart, Dart Burst, Fly, and more purples.
- I like my Elude slotting better. Not that it matters, 2 recharge gets the job done. Mine is overkill. I should really find somewhere else to put some of those, or use a different set.
- I think my build will Exemplar better, if it matters, and that's really just opinion since I haven't checked the numbers on both. I know I built with Exemplaring in mind, even If I don't do it often. With a large chunk of his defense in the upper levels, I'd be concerned about exemplared defense.
Overall, I see differences in preferences and flavors. I wouldn't do it his way, he likely wouldn't do it mine. But both of us appear to be consternated by your method. -
You could get another 30 seconds out of Barrier. But again, there are better ways to get where you want to go. A Scorpion Shield based build would probably be my first stop. Mu Shield my second. Then Striking a balance between SLM Defense and SLE resist. Toss in some Temps like Kinetic Shield if I really wanted, since you can craft as many as you want.
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Smoke is pretty useless.
Neither Hasten, Nor Eviscerate are required.
I do, however, prefer to have hasten.
Assuming:
- You prefer Build up over follow up, and you apparently really want Eviscerate. (I prefer follow up)
- You prefer to have Eviscerate. (I don't)
- You prefer to have Smoke for the 1.8 endurance bonus. (I'd rather have the extra 20 seconds recharge in Elude)
- Replacing the Recharge Bonus in TT:L with a Similar Bonus in Eviserate, while Sacrificing an AoE Bonus.
- Filling out and Proccing all Attacks. You're going to have to use them all, except maybe - Eviscerate. Making sure they are slotted and procced is important.
- You won't need kismet, nor need the slotting for to-hit in ML. TT:L and the base +tohit in ML with general slotting for 60acc and bonuses is enough to cap your to-hit vs +4 targets even when exemplared due to the Purple bonus. When not exemplared you'll be well above the to-hit cap.
- I would still build a little different, and slot ML differently with Exemplaring in mind. Steal 1 or 2 slots so you can up the recharge on ML, then you could Exemplar down to at least 30. Shuffle some things around and you could make that mid 20s without really losing any major performance.
- I also prefer to have Aid Self.
I'd go something more like this: Revision 3
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I prefer follow-up. But as I mention below, it's been a long time, so it may be worth double checking the current numbers and information.
Placate does nothing for you, unless you expect fights to last long enough for build-up to recharge. Unless something has changed, placate's animation time and NW's bonus damage is such that just hitting the target again does just as much damage over time of the 2 attacks vs Placate and 1 attack. I'd have to double check all the math to be sure, but that's how it was long ago, and I've never rechecked or used placate since then. (Placate and Bonus Damage for NW was NOT the same as Placate and Bonus Damage for Stalkers)
You can easily reslot mind link to perma even with cast time, that's entirely your choice. Set bonuses or 4 Def/Rech IOs or 3 Def/Rech Hami.
With your recharge level you'll need Eviscerate. If you swap in Follow-up, you may be able to drop Eviscerate.
The second slot in TT:A only gains you 0.03 eps
The second slot in Pool:A only gains you 0.06 eps
You could swap in Kismet +tohit in CTD
I prefer Shatter Armor and (Cardiac or Ageless+Recovery) for the 1.2x Offensive Boost on hard targets. Musculature Core Paragon is only a 1.12x boost by comparison, but does apply to AoEs as well. Also, with the addition of shatter armor you absolutely don't need Eviscerate, unless you plan on Glad Proccing Eviscerate.
Edit: Since you can't have APP's, CP is out, that Means Cardiac or Ageless.
(With Accolades) It looks like you may not need Cardiac or Ageless. It's all about preferences, I don't know what your preference is for what I call burn-time. I find I like 120+ with 160 being comfortable and needing only the occasional blue. Pylon Soloers need closer to 300. Your burn time is about 75 seconds.
Edit: I always forget you can't get APP's, Especially when I'm looking at someone elses build and trying to modify it as little as possible.
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Revision 3 - Shatter Armor
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The slotting for super speed and mind link is baffling.
The lack of Tactical Training: Leadership is also a concern.
Double slotting in assault only gains you 0.03 eps. Those slots may be more useful elsewhere.
The difference in slotting D/R vs E/R in the defense 4 sets is 0.03 eps and 0.20 defense. It's a bit of a toss up which way is better. Changing it costs no slots, I'd slot both and flip back and forth till I found which I preferred.
The defense levels are adequate, but could definitely be better.
You're most likely still going to need Cardiac, Musculature Radial Paragon, or Ageless+Recovery.
I would also at the very least change things to this. Swapping an Assault for TT:Leadership, and reslotting the previously mentioned powers. Get your Accolades and aim for Musculature Radial Paragon. This will almost give you enough endurance once you reach the end goal. Leveling, however, will be very painful and you'll definitely want to craft some +recovery temps.
I personally would want 120 seconds of fight time as a minimum when possible. You'll have 3.6 (60 seconds of fighting) before accolades, 3.9 (90 seconds) with accolades, and 4.1 (103 seconds) with accolades and Musculature Radial Paragon. By comparison Cardiac will give you (160 seconds), while Ageless + Recovery can give you up to (Unlimited Fight Time).
With all that in mind you either
- Settle for less, Accept the 100 seconds fight time and it's limitations, as well as the other limitations of the build, hoping the use of a Musculature offsets the negatives.
- Take either Cardiac or Ageless+Recovery, at which point this type of build with all it's sacrifices for +recovery becomes moot and a loss, so then you re-build completely from the ground up for another goal, perhaps defense and/or offense. -
If the chains are close, wouldn't the 20% -res from Shatter Armor trump Gloom ? I haven't calculated it, but I assumed it would given any reasonable level of dps. Gloom is a great attack, but unless it adds 40 or more to the chain the -res sounds better to me.
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I would say something along the lines of:
(Crit Lunge, Followup, Shatter Armor), Strike, Swipe, Slash, Followup, Lunge, Strike, Swipe, Slash, Followup ...
- Try to keep Follow Up Double Stacked.
- Take the Mace and Shatter Armor, using it as sparringly as possible to maintain the -res. Aka: once every 20 seconds or there abouts.
- Slot a Glad Proc in Eviscerate.
- Alternate Shatter Armor and Eviscerate to fill the gaps in your chain depending on your recharge levels. With enough recharge you won't need Eviscerate.
- It's hard to say if at the point you no longer need Eviscerate if it's worth keeping it or not for the -res proc.