Liliaceae

Can anyone provide any corroboration for this one:

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Gravity Distortion, GDF and Wormhole allowing attacks before taking effect. Under what conditions does this affect these, but not other mez powers. (Gail_Sieht June 19th)

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If memory serves I tried it out, and the holds didn't seem to behave differently from other holds.

I've been thinking about exactly what is wrong with the AoE holds, it's a difficult thing to describe. Taking your advice to heart, (and avoiding the word "nerf" because nothing else says "we want our I5 AoE Holds back more than that), I've come up with this. On the one hand I think it's pretty important, on the other I wonder if we've gone too far into the wilderness with this one:

The AoE holds are very disappointing. There is nothing for which they are particularly well suited, instead there are several things they can do poorly. What's worse is that they must be heavily enhanced to achieve this mediocrity. The structure of missions, and consistency of spawn sizes means that most fights are against a single spawn, with the occasional 2 or 3 spawn fight. As an emergency power in a multi-spawn fight, they fall flat because their target cap is too low to hit a full spawn and their duration is too short to give the team time to deal with the situation. Their place is clearly not every-spawn control, since there are other powers for that purpose, and that would be overpowered. Naturally there are other possible uses, none of which are particularly impressive: they can be stacked with the single target hold to deal with bosses, but of course Domination is far superior for that; multiple Dominators can alternate them to get every spawn control, which would be an odd tactic given that there would be several other control options available.

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Another issue was fixed in the recent patch, too bad it was a very obscure one.

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Carrion Creepers continues to generate damage ticks on defeated enemies.

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Thanks to Min Min for noticing it.

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Actually, I'm still not convinced that this is the case. I thought it might have been fixed, but I could swear that I saw it still happening later on that night.

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I did test it independently. Do you want to make yourself certain?

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Yeah, I've made myself certain. It's definitely not fixed.

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I wonder if it's a Rikti-specific thing now. There was another bug in patch notes about Warshade powers not working on them when they were dead, and their reticles had/have a nasty habit of not falling down.

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Another issue was fixed in the recent patch, too bad it was a very obscure one.

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Carrion Creepers continues to generate damage ticks on defeated enemies.

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Thanks to Min Min for noticing it.

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Actually, I'm still not convinced that this is the case. I thought it might have been fixed, but I could swear that I saw it still happening later on that night.

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I did test it independently. Do you want to make yourself certain?

I defy you to disagree with this one!

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Bonfire animation is lame. (Liliaceae June 17th)

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All I need is one small voice of agreement. If I change it to "weaksauce" will that garner more support? You know, this might be one of the reasons for its initial unpopularity. A giant pile of burning skulls and bones would have people seething with jealousy!

A long time ago we discussed changing the wording of the AoE hold issue. Let's close this off now. I won't change anything unless I get a few supportive posts, so please cut down on the implicit, silent agreement.

Here's the current wording:

The AoE holds are very disappointing, their short durations, poor accuracy and long recharge mean that they are barely useful unslotted, and at best situationally useful at the cost of 4 or 5 slots.

Here's the proposed new wording:

The AoE holds are very disappointing. They cannot be used in every fight, due to their long recharge times. Since most spawns throughout a mission are of very similar difficulty and make-up, this means that the team must be able to deal with a regular spawn without the benefit of the AoE hold, which makes it an emergency power. However, emergencies are almost always in the form of an additional spawn, and the max targets of 10 means that the AoE hold cannot deal with that for more than a medium sized team. Finally, the poor duration and accuracy mean that they need to be 5 or 6 slotted to even perform this mediocre function. The only other use for them is stacking mag in order to hold bosses in a small team, but Domination is a far superior tool for this job.

Another issue was fixed in the recent patch, too bad it was a very obscure one.

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Carrion Creepers continues to generate damage ticks on defeated enemies.

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Thanks to Min Min for noticing it.

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However, my inclination is not to include this in the list, because I don't think reducing it will really help /Energy's overall problems. I'd rather /Energy were looked at as a whole, but last time it was discussed we couldn't achieve consensus.

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But putting aside the question of AOEs, that *IS* the problem and difference between the "poor" single target damage of energy assault and the "good" single target damage of ice.

snip

Now with *ONLY* changing bolt, blast, and burst to be a 1.5 second activation (bonesmasher already is but leave TF and snipe) you get:

It evens out the DPS complaints very very nicely.


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I was thinking about just Power Bolt there, but saying all three have animations that are too long sounds good to me. Do people agree to add an issue saying all three energy blasts have animations that are too long?

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you are talking 2-4 DPS in any situation so not a big deal in any event.

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I prefer to look at it as percentages, so 3 DPS is 10%, which IMO is worth complaining over.

BTW, love your use of quotes "poor" and "good".

Dredging this one up again, I'd really appreciate some input. Do you think that these are genuine issues that belong in the list? Do you think the wording is ok?

Ice Control lost some effectiveness relative to the other control primaries when it was ported over from Controllers. Specifically two of its fast recharging AoE control powers, Shiver and Arctic Air, were reduced in effectiveness, but are not in any way improved by Domination.

Ice Control benefits less from Domination because it has no fast recharging effective damage mitigation power which is boosted by Domination (like Flashfire, Wormhole, or Seeds of Confusion).

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We still have a long list of under discussion items to address. This one looks pretty easy:

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Animation time of Power Bolt is excessive. (Chefshift June 1st)

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Animation time on all three of Energy's blasts is excessive if you ask me. On the other hand, at least Bolt doesn't have the "lag" that Burst has.

The thing is that I can't think of a metric for "excessive" where Power Bolt is the worst offender.

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While I can't deny that Flares is far worse, that doesn't mean Power Bolt isn't a problem too.

However, my inclination is not to include this in the list, because I don't think reducing it will really help /Energy's overall problems. I'd rather /Energy were looked at as a whole, but last time it was discussed we couldn't achieve consensus.

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And the tricky one for the day:

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Targets that are missed by an attack aggro and retaliate before damage is reported on those that were hit, and before misses are reported. (Liliaceae June 2nd)

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Is this a quality of life issue, or something more sinister? Is it worth including something like this in the list?

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It depends on the attack as best as I can tell. Mesmerize has a "significant" delay before the miss is reported, but the damage & aggro happen immediately. Power bolt damages at the beginning of the animation, leaving you stuck for the remainder as it shoots off, while power blast (assuming I don't have them mixed up) damages at the end but you are free to act immediately. Confuse will show purple dots immediately but does not report a miss until the animation is complete. I see this a lot in scrapper sets, probably others but I'm not nearly as familiar with them. It seems to me just a characteristic of the game as implemented and in the same line of reasoning as the animation times themselves are not considered in the balancing of the powers.

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You've convinced me, I'm going to leave it out on the grounds that it's too theoretical so listing it doesn't benefit the community much. Wha'ts more, I'm sure the devs are fully aware of it, it's probably more of a thorn in their side than in ours.

I'm of two minds about the "not Dominator specific" objections. On the one hand, letting them in would create a massive list, while on the other hand, there is no other place for them to go. However usually it's a valid objection, if it's a general problem that is bad enough to overcome my concerns, /bug is probably a better bet.

And the tricky one for the day:

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Targets that are missed by an attack aggro and retaliate before damage is reported on those that were hit, and before misses are reported. (Liliaceae June 2nd)

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Is this a quality of life issue, or something more sinister? Is it worth including something like this in the list?

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Damage listed on power selection screen doesn't make sense. (Chefshift June 1st)

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Anyone care to do an analysis of the situation? Perhaps we could identify just a few miscategorized powers. Or is the whole thing just a big disaster?

We still have a long list of under discussion items to address. This one looks pretty easy:

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Animation time of Power Bolt is excessive. (Chefshift June 1st)

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Any thoughts?

Lili -- Turning Forumming into work since January 2006

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This was reported a long time ago, has anyone else ever heard of similar experiences from an independent source? I tried some testing once and could not reproduce. If no one has, I'll remove it.

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Plant effects remaining on PvP enemies after they die and respawn. (Domination101 May 2nd)

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In a leap of inductive logic, I'm going to assume that the most recent patch notes were referring to the same bug, and remove this as fixed.

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I didn't see the difference in AoE hold number caps dom vs controller listed in the general issues. Anyway, it's an issue and support for it being changed to 16 can be found HERE Notice the name of the poster who says all AoE controls should be 16.

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You scared me for a second there. It's the top issue in the common powers section.

I think a new IO section is in order, since I already have two issues to propose for it:

None of the Pet Damage sets have recharge reduction, which is third desirable attribute for Dominator pets, and instead they have endurance reduction which is much less useful.

Many sets across all types of powers offer mez resistance bonuses, while very few offer mez duration bonuses, which makes things more difficult for Dominators in PvP.

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Thorny Assault

* Imaple does not inflict -Jump, as stated in the description.

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means the the text forgot the - jump or that there is no -jump component in impal besides what the text say?

if impal does not inflic -jump it's a bug or it's intended? any information on that?

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The text says there is -Jump, but there isn't. What's intended is anybody's guess.

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Sorry if this has been covered already but I am just wondering if there was ever a reason given as to why Plant is the only Dom primary that has no secondary affect?

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I'm not sure exactly which powers you are referring to, but focusing on the immobilizes and holds, you'll find that Mind/ and Fire/ have no secondary effects either.

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i currently have an issue with my ice/* dominator.
the core power need your target to be on floor (ice slick, glacier, flashfreeze)
but the ST hold and frostbite don't inflict "a strong" -fly. and ice slick doesn't too.

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This was discussed extensively in the past. We always focussed on the question "Does Ice/ have a problem with fliers?" Interestingly the last time it was discussed we realized that Fire/ had even more problems with fliers, but that was fixed by the devs adding -Fly to Fire Cages and Ring of Fire. Perhaps it is time to revisit this. If memory serves, the consensus was that Ice/ is reduced in effectiveness against fliers, but that it still has plenty of possibilities, including Frostbite, Shiver, Arctic Air, and to a lesser extent Glacier. Basically, Ice Slick doesn't work in this case, but Ice Control has other possibilities.

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on the same idea, why giving ice's root a - kb when the set also got ice slick ??
i can't understand why nobody asked removing this anti kb.

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The broad issue about the immobilizes addresses this valid and widely shared concern.

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(sorry if my english is bad)

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Si tu veux, c'est correct aussi en Francais.

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Ice Control is lagging in AoE control effectiveness when compared to the other primaries. etc.

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I think this would be more manageable if we broke it up into two issues. Most importantly:

Ice Control lost some effectiveness relative to the other control primaries when it was ported over from Controllers. Specifically two of its fast recharging AoE control powers, Shiver and Arctic Air, were reduced in effectiveness, but are not in any way improved by Domination.

Secondarily, because I'm not actually sure it's an issue:

Ice Control benefits less from Domination because it has no fast recharging effective damage mitigation power which is boosted by Domination (like Flashfire, Wormhole, or Seeds of Confusion).

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The list of status effects which Domination protects against is missing knock* and repel.

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Yes that's a text error, and the wording needs to be corrected, thanks for pointing it out.

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Break Frees are easily available and significantly affect the performance of our primary sets. There is no counter-inspiration for a Break Free.


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Bf shouldn't be an issue when pvping. Sure its a minor anoyance, but a dom can easily run someone out of 20 bf within the 1st 6 minutes if not sooner.

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I think this issue made it in before the improved Domination gain in PvP. In light of that change, it definitely needs review. How do other people feel about this?

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# Disorient duration too short for Wormhole. (Lemur_Lad September 5th)

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i just checked in a builder (mid's hero designer) and it list wormhole as lasting only for 2.7 sec ?! O_o
(no other AoE control is under 11.9)

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It's definitely longer than that.

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# Gravity Distortion measuring poorly against other STHs. (Natsuki September 9th)

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could this be explained to me? not sure i see what's the issue.

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From memory, this refers to the activation time being longer, and the damage being either less or more resisted. Take a look at the stats in City of Data, and check out if you think it's losing out.

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PS: no offense, but does this list actually helped to solves some issues? (traduction, are the dev listening?)

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Some things have been mysteriously fixed/changed after being discussed here, for instance adding -Fly to Fire Cages, and the reduction in activation time of Mental Blast. However, this list isn't just for the devs, it's for the community as well. There's a reason that there are far more "PSW FTW!" threads than "WTF power X is broken!" threads.

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According to CoD, Singularity still uses the old 3 second animation times for Crush and Gravity Distortion. Has this been updated yet to the new under 2s animation times?

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I'm not really sure how to verify this, Singularity is a little too subtle for that. In the absence of concrete negative effects on game-play, or even in-game verification, I can't add this to the list.