Lightfoot

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I'm not sure I get this comment. Custom critters hit *much* harder than the standard NPCs. The problem many of us have had since beta is creating custom enemies that don't wipe us out quickly.

Most of the "farms" I've seen consist of hand-picked standard critters (Rikti, Freaks, etc.), not customs.


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That is what the Devs don't seem to get. These changes are going to do jack-[censored] to curb farming. Instead they're going to kill custom critter creation, which was one of the biggest draws of the Mission Architect. Which stuff like this in place you'll more likely have people avoiding missions that list "Custom Group" among the factions present.

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QFT

I've yet to see a popular farm that consisted of primarily customs. They have almost always been existing hand picked dev creations.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's tolerance threshold has been surpassed.

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The "popular" farms may not be the "best" farms. They are probably the easiest farms to make and run, and some of them probably were, in fact, the best bang for your buck (Rikti Doll and MEOW). It is entirely possible that datamining has showed that there are a number of farmers performing well enough above the curve using entirely custom mobs. The reason you haven't heard of these farms could be because the farmer who made them is smart enough to not invite random people to his farms, not broadcast his farm across Atlas Park for all to see, and not advertise his arcs here on the Forum. This could be the results of the "extensive datamining tools" that the Devs have claimed to have.

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Christ I'd be hesitant to even post a thought if after reading how vicious you all are o.@ It's like sharks waiting for someone to fall off a plank!

Granted it's a double post but, damn o.0


-C.A.

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The S&I Forum is well known as one of the most brutal forums in which to post. Frequent posters or respondents in S&I have, in truth, seen most of the suggestions that come through here, at least once before, if not many times before. This is why so many of the suggestions can be answered immediately by one of Memphis Bill's canned answers. This is also why the search function is brought up so often. An idea that you thought of as original may not be as original as you believe. There are a number of suggestions that have passed through here that are almost verbatim to suggestions brought forward not even two weeks before by another poster.

The other portion of this is that when you bring an idea here, be prepared to fight for it. You are asking for some change in the game, a change that others might not appreciate. The ideas brought forth need to be able to withstand criticism. If you can rebut the arguments against with reasoned arguments of your own, then you have worthy suggestion. On the other hand, if you cannot argue for your suggestion with logic and reason, then you need to ask yourself whether your suggestion is made for the good of the game, or for your own good.

The venom and personal attacks don't usually begin until the OP takes the criticism personally and starts fighting back with emotion instead of reason.

In this particular case, the OP led off with the emotion, and with words designed to get an emotional response. Many of us play City of Heroes because we enjoy the game and the world that the Developers have created for us. When the OP opens with a challenge for the Devs to get their heads out of their rears, one shouldn't act shocked that others do not share the OPs low opinion of the Dev team. To be fair, the folks who claimed that they stopped reading at that statement were giving the OP an honest evaluation of how this suggestion would be viewed by the Devs themselves. Back Alley Brawler has said that the fastest way for anyone to get on his ignore list is for that person to accuse him or another Developer of being lazy or stupid. BAB, so far, has been the only one to say this outright, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are other Devs who felt the same way.

Polite conversation tends to breed polite conversation. Don't be scared away from the S&I by this or other threads. If you keep your head, stay cool and rational, and show that you have thought your suggestion through completely, the response to your suggestion will be civil (maybe not positive, but civil)

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So I saw some nice additions on Posi's little pop up window I got last night in game, and on a few places here on the forum. But no mention of any new powersets, or proliferations.

I was really hoping for dark or rad blasters.

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They wanted to push something out for the Anniversary, so they took everything that was ready and called it an Issue.

My guess is that Castle and crew, having just come off the Architect Critter Creator, which is almost entirely their baby, hasn't had time to finish the work necessary for the next round of Proliferation. I'd be surprised if they have had time to even catch their breath in all the rapidfire bug and whack-a-mole fixes follwing Issue 14.

Since Issue 15 is "what's ready," expect it to go into Beta sometime in the next two weeks, and expect it to be a short Beta, maybe one or two weeks. I think we are looking at a month for Issue 15 to go live, tops.

I would expect a new round of Proliferation in Issue 16, and Positron has hinted that the next new Powersets will be Pistols (presumably for Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors) and Demon Summoning for Masterminds. They may be far enough along on these sets that they will be in Issue 16, or they might be planned for Issue 17. We don't know enough information yet.

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Bear in mind, Positron has gone live and said that, when they packaged and got ready to promote Issue 15, it went sort of like this:

"What's ready to go now? Jay? Costumes and faces? Great! Put 'em in. Castle? Proliferation not ready? Okay, Issue 16. BAB? The costume change emotes are done? Put 'em in. Pohsyb, Ghost Falcon? MA improvements are done? Put 'em in. War Witch, Hero 1? The 5th Column Task Forces ready to go? Good job, put 'em in!"

Since they really wanted to get an Issue 15 out for the "Fifth..." Anniversary, they took what was ready and called it an issue. I strongly suspect that Issue 15 will go into closed Beta on May 12th, Open Beta on May 27th, and Live on June 3rd.

That being said, they are working on expanding Powerset options and making new Powersets, just don't expect them in Issue 15. Issue 13 gave us Shield Defense and Pain Domination. and those were in development for quite a long time (granted, Shields took longer because of all the animation work).

Reasonable, thematic sets that I would expect to see eventually:

Blasters

Proliferated: Radiation Blast, Dark Blast, Radiation Manipulation, Dark Manipulation.

New: Spikes (Spines / Darts / Thorns / Whatever you want to call them, I believe between Thorny Assualt, the Blood Widow Primary, and Spines, there are enough Ranged attacks to cobble together a set, but as the looks of the powers are not truly compatible, the amount of animations and powers work required would probably just shy of making a new set), Pistols, Energy Rifle, Earth Blast, Radiant (or Light) Blast, Energy Pistols, Chemical Manipulation, Earth Manipulation, Radiance

Controllers

Proliferated: Dark Miamsa, Poison (maybe renamed and themed to Alchemy or Chemistry in the same way Empathy was renamed and themed into Pain domination), Cold Domination, Traps

New: Electric Control, Gadget Control, Dark Control, Temporal Control, Temporal Manipulation

Defenders

Proliferated: Traps, Poison, Thermal Radiation, Assault Rifle, Fire Blast

New: Temporal Manipulation, Pistols, Spikes, Energy Rifle, Energy Pistols, Earth Blast, Radiant Blast

Scrappers

Proliferated: Energy Melee, Super Strength, Electric Melee, Stone Melee, Battle Axe, War Mace, Icy Melee, Energy Aura, Electric Armor, Stone Armor, Ice Armor, Ninjutsu

New: Psychic Blades, Staff Fighting, Street Fighting, Radiation Melee (Caustic Combat or Withering Melee maybe? I hate the name Radiation Melee), Force Shield

Tankers

Proliferated: Electric Armor, Energy Aura, Regeneration, Super Reflexes, Ninjutsu(?), Broadsword, Spines, Martial Arts, Electric Melee, Claws, Katana.

New: Psychic Blades, Staff Fighting, Street Fighting, Radiation Melee, Force Shield

Brutes

Proliferated: Spines, Claws, Broadsword, Icy Melee, Katana, Martial Arts, Regeneration, Ice Armor, Ninjutsu(?)

New: Psychic Blades, Staff Fighting, Street Fighting, Radiation Melee, Force Shield

Corruptors

Proliferated: Archery, Psychic blast, Poison, Force Field

New: Temporal Manipulation, Pistols, Spikes, Energy Rifle, Energy Pistols, Earth Blast, Radiant Blast

Dominators

Proliferated: (Dark) Illusion, Dark Assault, Earthen Assault

New: Electric Control, Dark Control, Gadget Control, Temporal Control, Temporal Assault

Masterminds

Proliferated: Sonic Resonance, Kinetcs, Radiation Emission, Cold Domination, Thermal Radiation

New: Demons, Clowns (Carnies), Pirates, Clones, Illusions, Elementals, Temporal Manipulation

Stalkers

Proliferated: Broadsword, Stone Melee, Fiery Melee, Super Strength, Icy Melee, Stone Armor, Fiery Aura, Invulnerability, Ice Armor

New: Psychic Blades, Staff Fighting, Street Fighting, Radiation Melee, Force Shield

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Umm... this wouldn't work for players that don't wish to play the Arc stuff. In addition, the behavior being exhibited may drive those who have a hate for farms or farmers to avoid Arcs all together.

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It's a little ironic that that's exactly what I went through when they removed Trainings and DO drops from the higher levels.

-But now I don't have enough money to buy SOs.
-You can make a lot more money on the Market than you could with DOs and Trainings.
-But I don't want to play the Market.
-Tough.

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This argument makes no sense. I have never had multiple Enhancements drop from the same kill, which leads me to believe that there is only one Enhancement table roll, not three. When they removed TOs and DOs from the higher levels, the only pool of Enhancements the game could pull from when an Enhancement drop roll rolled positive is SOs.

They should be getting exactly the same number of Enhancements now as before, except that they are all SOs at higher levels, which they are able to sell for lots more than those TOs and DOs they were getting before.

/em shrug

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For all the lazy fanboi's who say 'MA doesn't create farmers', you're full of it. I have never farmed in 5 years, and now that AE is here that's the only thing to do. Solo'ing is boring, if I wanted to play by myself I would be on the ps3, xbox, wii, or something else that isn't an mmo.

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Like you, here for almost five years. Have not farmed, and don't plan to start with Architect.

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Now since I14, I can either sit around not finding a group, or I can take what I can get and join a farm. I hate them with a passion, but it's either that or waste my $15/mo. And everyone else out there like me will say the same thing. I am not the only person who feels like farming has been forced upon them in order to play.

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I think this is the problem. It sounds like you set you LFT flag, maybe braodcast a few times, and take the first invite that comes along. What you are experiencing in any place with an AE building now is exactly the same thing you were experiencing in PI and GV pre-Issue 14. If the people who are inviting you aren't doing what you want to do, don't play with them any more and form your own team. It really isn't that difficult, unless you must have a team of 8 or a particular AT mix in order to start, in which case your problems with the game go even deeper.

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And to the other group that is full of it (the people who say they genuinly use MA for what it was intended for... b.s.) if the most important thing is the story you create, then taking the xp away from it wouldn't hurt. If you want xp, play the xp missions as the dev's intended them, if you want to play your own story, play MA with no xp. IF MA truly is all about the story for you, then reduced xp or none at all wouldn't matter to you.

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MA was not intended to be only a story tool. It was also intended to be possible to level from 1-50 using the Architect. If they removed XP, then that would be impossible. People making farm missions are getting those missions squashed in short order. If you get enough missions squashed, you lose your Architect priveleges. In relatively short order, enough farmers are going to be banned from the system that they will gravitate back to PI and GV. The only farmers left in AE will be the smart ones who don't spam broadcast, and don't advertise that their arc is a farm.

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The game is already hurting for content as it is (noone can deny the repetition here, not even the fanboi's), if they don;t do something to fix this, that is only more people who will be flocking over to Champions for 'new content' and a 'not yet' borked game.

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No one has denied that the game is "hurting for content" because it is true, and we know it. Those of us using the Architect to try to tell good stories or play through good stories are loving it because Architect fixes this problem for us.

And, ummm, I've been watching the Champions boards. I'm pretty sure that, if the game is released in June as planned, all the folks who flocked there will be back here before their first month is up.

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Its harmless enough of a request, and if it is easy, I'd say go for it. Different strokes people, some folks do care about their rank, so please be respectful of that.

I wouldn't want any significant dev time spent on it though.

And yeah reword so it isn't a petition.

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Eminently reasonable, Catwhoorg, as always. While I may not appreciate why it is important to some people, I do realize that it is important to them.

I concede.

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It's a simple quality of life improvement we need. I'm tired of setting the Top 100 SGs to list by prestige and then counting them to find out where a SG belongs. Number them already!

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I'll echo the "who cares?" comment.

The only metric by which the game ranks a SG is Prestige earned. What makes a quality Supergroup is a large number of factors that can be quite subjective and have nothing to do with the amount of Prestige the group has earned.

Since Prestige can't be used for anything but building and improving a base, anything a SG earns beyond that is just gravy. What do I care if group X can grind Prestige faster, better, longer, than group Y, especially if Group X is led by a control freak who demands that members show up to Task Force Grind three days a week so that they can stay on the top of the Prestige pile, and Group Y is populated by people who are fun to play with, just not as driven.

I've always considered the Supergroup rankings to be another meter by which insecure people compare e-peens in some sort of nerd dominance struggle. SG ranking has absolutely no bearing on whether I join a SG. The only thing that matters to me is that I like the members and that they are fun to play with.

As a counter to your suggestion, I suggest that they eliminate SG Rankings altogether so that people pimping their Supergroups have to describe the true virtues of their Group, instead of just spamming "Rouge Angles of Mercy, top 5 SG, looking for members, pst for application."

On the other hand, I can't imagine inviting anyone to join my SG until I have played a few missions with them so I can see how well they play and how they would get along with the other members.

In the upper right corner of the costume creation screen (at Icon, at character creation, and in the critter creator), there are two buttons, labeled "Save" and "Load."

Suggestion granted, five months before you asked.

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But I play the game b/c it's fun. I just want the ablity to grow my Main is all. she completed IO'd out with Oranges ( I don't like pruples b/c they are woirth the influ). and have done eveything i can with her. I spend 1000's of hours and Millions of influ on her. I don't want retire her but with nothing to do what am i suppose to do with her.

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Earlier in the thread, I said this:

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The Devs have something in the pipe to advance your characters beyond 50. Castle hinted at it in the same post that shot down raising the level cap, once and for all (alright, his post won't stop nimrods from making new "raise the level cap" threads, but it does give us the definitive answer to point to).

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that probably got lost in the noise.

We don't know how far in advance this hint came, or for which issue they are planning to introduce this new form of advancement. With competition on the horizon, with a probable release of Issue 15 at around the same time Champions Online goes Live, the Devs have to play things closer to the chest in order to make sure that they don't get scooped by the competition.

But, I will say one thing that you are dead wrong about. Even with 1000s of hours and millions of influence spent, Issue 14 has just made your claim of having "done everything (you) can with her," patently false. While creating stories isn't really something to do with her, she can certainly take part in the stories written by other players. With the introduction of custom enemies, there are a lot of new challenges out there waiting for you to take them on, and more being added to the system every day.

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Maybe that's what i am thinking about incarnets not to make them stronger but the ablity to grow my toon beyond 50. i love play her but i feel like she has hit a ceiling as far as growth. i like Gypsy_of_Paradox idea maybe an add-on, not to make them stronger than another AT. I also like your idea Dragons.

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How could they use your idea of "better than 50" and still "not..make them stronger than another AT?" The only way to do this would be if they lost something for what they gained.

So what does the Incarnate lose for the extra powers they gain access to?

The Devs have something in the pipe to advance your characters beyond 50. Castle hinted at it in the same post that shot down raising the level cap, once and for all (alright, his post won't stop nimrods from making new "raise the level cap" threads, but it does give us the definitive answer to point to).

I seriously doubt that the form this advancement takes will be "Incarnates," as the idea of becoming an incarnate does not fit in with the origins of many players' characters.

What I would like to see done with Incarnates is to have a series of Power Pools only available to Incarnates. They would follow all the same rules as other Power Pools (four powers, first and second power become available at 6th level, 3rd power at 14, and fourth power at 20, they count against the four pool limit), or if they wanted a wider variety of powers, they could increase the level ranges (first at 6, second at 14, third at 22, fourth at 32). When you select your first Incarnate power, you would be locked into that set, and would not be able to choose from another without a respec (losing the original).

It would be best if the ability to create an Incarnate was unlocked via an Accolade, rather than level advancement.

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Unlocking Incarnate powers through an accolade is a great way to go really. Personally I don't want the cap raise beyond 50, that would break so many things. Enhancements beyond 53 would just be plainly insane. The purple recipes would become useless and several other reasons.

My Idea for a dual class if they were to introduce 10 lvls first would make your toon a static 60. My example used a lvl 50 Brute, he would always remain a lvl 50 Brute. The lvls gained as Incarnate would cap at 10 at first. Being static lvls, you would still slot lvl 50 enhancements. Which would not break the system, but give players a way to grow their 50s.

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Except that your suggestion gives the character an extra three or four powers over those ten virtual levels, which is another balancing factor.

While I'm keen on the idea of an Incarnate having access to powers that they might not have otherwise, at the end of the day, they should have roughly the same number of powers and slots at 50 as every other 50. What should distinguish them is their connection to the Well of the Furies, and through it, their connection to the gods. I can see 50 levels of stories, both heroside and villainside, about being touched by the gods, and the trials that come with the favor of the gods.

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Maybe that's what i am thinking about incarnets not to make them stronger but the ablity to grow my toon beyond 50. i love play her but i feel like she has hit a ceiling as far as growth. i like Gypsy_of_Paradox idea maybe an add-on, not to make them stronger than another AT. I also like your idea Dragons.

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How could they use your idea of "better than 50" and still "not..make them stronger than another AT?" The only way to do this would be if they lost something for what they gained.

So what does the Incarnate lose for the extra powers they gain access to?

The Devs have something in the pipe to advance your characters beyond 50. Castle hinted at it in the same post that shot down raising the level cap, once and for all (alright, his post won't stop nimrods from making new "raise the level cap" threads, but it does give us the definitive answer to point to).

I seriously doubt that the form this advancement takes will be "Incarnates," as the idea of becoming an incarnate does not fit in with the origins of many players' characters.

What I would like to see done with Incarnates is to have a series of Power Pools only available to Incarnates. They would follow all the same rules as other Power Pools (four powers, first and second power become available at 6th level, 3rd power at 14, and fourth power at 20, they count against the four pool limit), or if they wanted a wider variety of powers, they could increase the level ranges (first at 6, second at 14, third at 22, fourth at 32). When you select your first Incarnate power, you would be locked into that set, and would not be able to choose from another without a respec (losing the original).

It would be best if the ability to create an Incarnate was unlocked via an Accolade, rather than level advancement.

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I disagree. I view the player-created content as fan fiction. Some of it is highly enjoyable and well done, other stories are not. But I do not view it as a substitute for work created by the developers of the game and would be saddened if player-created content resulted in less developer-created content. I like the developer-created content, and hope to see more story arcs by them, more task forces, and more strike forces, not just zone creation or costume creation.

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That's fine. It doesn't have to be "either/or". I'm just saying, if some of the MA arcs are "highly enjoyable and well done" and fit with canon, then why shouldn't these stories be included in canon? The devs can still write as much new content as they like.

For example, the CoV side is [u]sorely[u] lacking in content at the lowest levels. If some MA stories (even single-mission arcs) are done well enough, are consistent with canon, and can logically be attached to an existing CoV contact, why [u]not[u] include them into the game?

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There has been a "mysterious fourth rank" hinted at in the various interviews (published, Hall of Fame, Devs' Choice, XXXXX), promoted to canon might be that fourth rank. I know that every mission I write, I make an effort not to contradict canon, and, hopefully, fit into and enhance the canon. (alright, I do have one joke arc, it doesn't contradict canon, but it certainly would never be inducted into it, either).

There is also the intimation being made that Architect Entertainment is nowhere near as benign as it is being presented to Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. Look who is responsible for it. Crey? There's a Corporation known for its long years of selfless contribution to the community and strictly ethical business practices. Dr. Aeon? Here's the guy who hooked up the Rogue Isles Power Transfer System to the heart of the demon that Cap au Diable was named for and doesn't think it's dangerous. There is no way that Architect Entertainment is just an innocent diversion.

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As a general rule, since the game is rated T for Teen, if it wouldn't fly for a PG-13 movie or TV show, it's too risque for MA.

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Prisoners in Brickstown have a reduced XP reward. Maybe they forgot to do that in the MA and have pulled them for the time being?

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I'm pretty sure it happened in this morning's patch. They probably removed Prisoners as a "low-risk for reward" enemy group because they only have Throw Rock and Brawl. I was kind of hoping for Patch Notes to confirm this by now....

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... I can't figure out how to do some things. How do I:

1) Escort to object instead of exit? I am trying to make it where I rescue a hostage that I then need to lead to an object instead of to the exit. I have created the escort goal and assigned them dialog/actions for when I reach the escort target, but I don't see antwhere where I change the target to an item instead of the exit.

Thank you for whatever assistance you can provide.

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I've been thinking about this one, and it may be possible to simulate it.

Have the objectives chain. Have a locate object or protect object objective spawn after you rescue an ally, and make this objective necessary for completion. If I am right, you can set the Ally to not fight (it may still draw aggro, so you would need to keep it alive). After you are done with the mobs around the Protected Object, have the mission complete clue be the Ally telling you what you needed to know.

I haven't tried it yet myself, but one of these kind of things is in an arc I have planned.

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Global tells are nice for receiving MA feedback, but they have a character limit, and you only get them once and can't review them later. An MA-specific email box with a much higher character limit would be great, since that way it's fine if you type in feedback as you go along with custom arcs. This method also makes it easier to report spelling or grammatical errors to designers, since currently it's really hard to squeeze those into the character limit along with more important feedback.

I am, however, a fan of the way the current feedback system lets you open a dialog with the people giving you feedback, so I think a button you could press on your feedback inbox to start a global chat with your feedbackers would be helpful.

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/signed

I gave an arc author some feedback, which prompted a discussion about how to make his custom enemies look more impressive. The bland looking custom critters, when I knew there were much more appropriate costume options available, was one of two things that kept me from five starring the arc. The other was that he needed more background text for those not familiar with the source material. I am quite familiar with the Ring Cycle and Germanic mythology, so I was able to fill in the holes. This was actually the larger issue, and I would have five starred if not for this, as taste in costuming is subjective.

There have been times that I wanted to give more detail than I have in my feedback, and it would be great to not have that text limit come up so quickly.

Hmmm. Thinking about it, I tend to rate right after I give feedback. In the cases where there is just one thing that is preventing me from 5 starring an arc, I wonder if I should hold off on the rating until the author has had a chance to respond. Not that I expect every author to change their arcs to suit my whims, but if they do fix it so that I see it as "Great," as opposed to "Really Good," then I would like to rate it appropriately.

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So will you be crediting our accounts for the extra loss of game time?

Why is it that every time a release happens, it's the most popular shard in the farm that gets wacked? This is not the first time and I would think that your engineers would learn from the history of roll out issues.

Don't you guys keep an internal knowledge base?



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As I understand it, this is one of the "trade offs" of playing on the most popular server. The other trade offs being, "higher population causes more lag spikes in gathering spots," "greater chance of hitting the server population cap at issue release," "greater chance of hitting the server population cap for events like double XP weekend" and "while the percentage of players that are either jerks or idiots is probably the same across all servers, the higher population of Freedom increases the chances of running into one on Freedom."

Since these are known issues of high population servers in every single MMO, I'm surprised they need to be pointed out again. For the above reasons, either patience or flexibility is required. The patience to wait for your chosen server to come back up when it is ready, or the flexibility to have a character available on any or all of the other available servers so you can still play just in case your chosen server goes down, for whatever reason.

However, I would like to point out a notable addition from this thread to our knowledge base about the game. Apparently Freedom has more hardware allocated to it to help it handle the higher population. One of the common assumptions it that each server has the same pool of resources to draw from, which is what fuels some of the "kill / merge 'dead servers'" arguments. The logic usually being that once they have freed up the hardware from the "dead server," they can use it to back up the servers that feed Freedom. Now we have proof that this is completely unnecessary and baseless.

And:

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So will you be crediting our accounts for the extra loss of game time?

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Seriously? Who does this, really? Could you even type this with a straight face? Does Blizzard refund WoW players for time spent in server queues or during downtimes? But hey, if you want to take them to court over your 5 cents per hour missed, I'm sure any Small Claims Court in the country will be sympathetic.

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Im new to the game, only been playing 6 mos, and i noticed alot of the enemies you battle do not fit into the archtypes available to players. They usually display powers available to seperate archtypes. I would like to see these choices available to players. It would be cool to make a toon that was a combo Brute/Dom or Scrapper/Blaster. Im sure with a little thinking/planning this would not unbalance game play and give players more choices. They could call these special classes Deviants because they deviate from the norm. The more options available to the players will interest more people in playing the game.

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Once Architect goes live, head on over to the AE building and play a few arcs. We can do this with the Custom Critters we can put into missions. This should prove to you how powerful some of these combinations would be in the hands of the players. Normally, my level 14 Defender doesn't have much trouble with even con and +1 spawns. I was getting my butt handed to me by spawns of 3, even con, mutated, bunnies. BUNNIES!! I don't know what was more humiliating, that I was having trouble with even con spawns, or that I was being beaten down by bunny rabbits.

Take those custom critters, and then think about how tough they would be if their powers were slotted, and had a human brain behind them rather than the game AI.

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I've been told that before but the one time the vet was going to "prove" it to me he failed. I think his first words after we woke up in the jail was "wow, that never happened before."

Pfft... I'll do it the scenic route. And yes, I obviously know you get the contact even if you fail. My first attempt was spent waiting for the timer to expire... from inside the Atlas jail.

I just hate failing. lol

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It's not so much failing, as not even trying.

You don't have to stay in the Mayhem, but you do have to go inside to get the timer started. Once you are in, you just click on the back doors of the truck to go back out into the world. Street sweep for 15 minutes. Go to the Market and sell salvage or place bids on other things. If you already have another Contact, do one of their missions while the timer ticks. When the timer runs out on the Mayhem, go back to the Broker and get your new Contact.

Personally, I love Mayhems. It's one of the few times you really do villainous things, I just wish they rewarded you like you had just done the things you did. "I just robbed the King's Row bank, and all I got was this lousy 250 Infamy (and a Zero G Pack)." The only side mission that really succeeds at that is the Weapons Deal side mish.

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heh... ok ok Uncle already.

I still think they are backwards (compared to RL/comics/movies not safeguards) and not intuitive for the new player (I did compare them to safeguards in this regard).

But that's cool. If I'm in the minority then keep them the way they are... just don't force me to run them to get my next contact, i.e. consider my other suggestions.

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Not that I have ever done it, as I love Mayhem missions, but, IIRC, you can accept the mission, step in and back out, let the timer run out, talk to the Broker, and get your new Contact.

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I would like to see the ability to do something like /camp <char name> and be logged directly into that character. With the way the system is set up it would probably have to be only to characters on the same server but that would probably cover must of the switching that most of us do. EQ2 has this and I find it incredibly handy.

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On what do you base the bolded assumption? I have at least ten characters on each server, including ten who were born and live on Test, and will play any of them on a whim. I know I'm not the only raging altaholic. We even have a support group, Altaholics Anonymous. Nobody makes the meetings, though, because we are usually playing with the character creator during those times.

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I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.

Ever.

1) The game engine can't handle it.
2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.
3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.
4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.
5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.

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Those are the objections you've never seen invalidated? What?

1) The game engine obviously can handle vehicles; they're a part of the game for NPC groups already.

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Which ones? Longbow? Sky Raiders? Neither has a unit that actually gets into the Chaser or Skiff, nor can the "pilot" be targeted. I put it to you that the Sky Skiffs and Longbow Chasers are not "vehicles," but individual enemy units. Didn't Bill already point that out in this thread?

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2) Large vehicles probably would. Is this a technical objection? Because if it's about taste, there's no way I could ever invalidate it, and asking me to do so is disingenuous at best.

But from my point of view: Also, Burn looks ridiculous while swimming, Strangler looks ridiculous used on many footless flying enemies, Stone Cages looks ridiculous when there's very large monsters in it, and Spines looks ridiculous with a wide variety of costume options. I suppose when there is a dedicated anti-ridiculous campaign instituted for character powers, I'd be concerned enough to propose that vehicles not be allowed in indoor instances. Bill already explained why this wouldn't be a problem in many cases: Large vehicles can't fit through doors, so players simply wouldn't want to use them indoors.

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No other Travel Power in the game has these kind of "limitations." Bill wasn't explaining that it "wouldn't be a problem in many cases," He was further explaining one of the problems. You are absolutely correct. Many players wouldn't want to use them indoors with these limitations. But they would still want a "Jackmobile." Why saddle their Travel Power choice with limitations that other players don't have?

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that the Devs put in the tech for cars and vans and helicopters and jets and motorcycles. In the end, the players realize that motorcycles are the only ones that they can use indoors, and everyone respecs into motorcycle. All the time the Devs spent programming cars and vans and helicopters and jets was just wasted.

But can you imagine the outcry if the Devs gave us motorcycles as the only vehicle option?

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3) 'k.

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So, you accept the argument that the players would want to be able to customize their vehicles, and we would need a vehicle creator in order to do so?

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4) What? Why on earth would they do something like that? Wouldn't it be much easier to make any enclosed vehicle just disable the character's powers?

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And non-enclosed vehicles? Motorcycles, convertibles, ultralights, hang gliders, go carts? Bill's argument about vehicle types selecting themselves out due to power limitations applies again here. I discover that my Ferrari can only get me from point A to point B, and I need to toggle off my travel power any time I wish to engage in battle (where does it go, by the way? just vanishes into thin air while I fight?). But I don't need to do this with a motorcycle? Forget the Ferrari then, I'll take the Ducati instead. Dev time putting the Ferrari into the game wasted, again.

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5) How To Resolve Pathing Issues With a Car: Step 1: jumpheight -100000%, fly -100. Step 2: Have coffee. If you want to experience this for yourself now, get someone to blast you with web grenade while you've got Super Speed and Combat Jumping on. You will not be able to go anywhere a car could not. You will be able to go over broken terrain and water, but, well, so does Batman's car. Edit: And the A-Team van, if you want something even more natural-origin than the Bat-Car. I'd comment on the Dukes of Hazzard, but then we'd have to allow jumping. =(

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So, my car can still go up stairs, navigate ramps that are too narrow for it in outdoor areas, and use elevators (like the ones found in Faultline and Grandville)? My mistake for not typing "Resolve movement and pathing issues." Some of the movement issues, you point out below.

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Now, you didn't actually say it, but a much better objection than 5 is, "Characters can strafe and stop suddenly, while most cars cannot, at least not the way characters can." And then I would say: "Yes! That is a good objection, and I'm glad you copied it from Bill's post! Because I've thought of an answer for that as well: The drift/inertia mechanics used for Flight and characters standing on ice causes behavior very similar to that of a car's. It would still look kind of silly, but I think it's possible to improve it. When you move, the game preserves direction and orientation, so you continue to face the same way while possibly moving at an angle to that. However, when you use a power, the game forces you to face the direction of your target. Using effects very similar to these and a lot of man-hours, it should be possible to cause a vehicle to always try to face the direction it's moving. Is it possible this could cause some sudden weird orientation changes that look funny? Abso-friggin-lutely. See 'dedicated anti-ridiculousness campaign,' above. Your character walking already occasionally moves in very goofy ways. Sorry, but for any multiplayer game, these little sacrifices have to be made."

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It was in Bill's post, and movement issues are one of those things that would need to be resolved. In the end, we (the playerbase) would want the vehicles to move realisticly. That includes skidding, fishtailing, spin outs, catching air and crashes. Make a post in General about the way a female character runs with a weapon in her hand, and witness the nerdrage about how she runs like a man. It is a little thing (in my opinion) that completely breaks immersion for others and makes a female character with weapons totally unplayable for them. Expand this out if the vehicles did not move naturally.

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And then there's the Ultimate Objection:

6) This would take a lot of care and a fair amount of time to do well.

And my answer:

Yes. It would.

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Absolutely correct. Resolving all of the above issues would be too much work for too little reward. I'd rather have the Devs working on things like new powersets, zones, storylines, ATs, bug fixes, costumes, and critters than I would have them devoting those resources to three or four new "limited" Travel powersets when the ones that we already have in game are perfectly serviceable.

Our Devs have a history of trying to do it right, or not doing it at all. In my opinion, vehicles is one of those things that needs to be done right, and I don't feel that the resources needed to do so are a worthwhile use of our developers' time.

Would I love to have the "Lightcycle?" You betcha! But I don't think it takes priority over a million other things they could be doing.

Oh yeah, which arguments did you invalidate again? In fact, I'm pretty sure you helped the argument against more than you did the argument for.

Thanks.

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use the search function. vehicle threads pop up once a week at least. read them before making a suggestion.

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Sharker_Quint, please stop repeating that. You yourself clearly have not. The counter-arguments you're giving have already been brought up in those threads and were addressed (and for many, dismissed) -- and yet we're having to repeat them for your benefit. It's not productive for you to repeat "search!," and hypocritical besides.

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You are absoulutely correct. Whenever the subject of vehicles pops up (or server mergers, or raising the level cap, or world PVP), there are a plethora of stock answers as to why it is a bad idea and unlikely to ever happen (so stock that posters like Memphis Bill have the replies saved somewhere so they can copy and paste them instead of typing it all out, again and again).

And you are also absolutely correct about those stock replies quickly being dismissed......


.....by the people arguing for the suggestion.


I have yet to see any of those stock replies disproven or invalidated.

Ever.


Ever.


Ever.

and, just for emphasis...


Ever.

Every single one of those stock replies is as true now as it was the first time those replies were posted.

1) The game engine can't handle it.

2) Vehicles would look ridiculous indoors.

3) The players would not be satisfied with one model for any vehicle type, so the Devs would need to add a Vehicle Creator to the Character Creator.

4) The developers would have to redo every single power animation for each type of vehicle.

5) Pathing issues would need to be addressed.


These are the stock replies. Until you can address these issues, vehicles are not viable. You may "dismiss" these arguments as often as you like, but they are still perfectly valid. Your dismissal of an argument does not invalidate it, it merely shows the weakness of your own position.

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I really don't think I would be able to survive the level of stress some folks bring into their entertainment.

I have several Masterminds and Controllers, including an Ill/Storm. This will not affect my playstyle in the slightest. I hit the button, the cloud appears, bad guys go flying. It works like this now, it will work like this after I14. If there is a reduction in effectiveness, it just means that that following attack I'm already hitting won't land on something that's already defeated.

As a matter of fact, though I've been here since the end of I3, there have only been two power reductions that I ever really payed attention to. ED and the GDN. Even then, I ran a quick respec, and carried on like I always did.

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Q F Ever-lovin' T!!

I play this game (GAME!!!!!) to have fun and to take on the role of a comic book hero or villain. As long as I can beat up bad guys (or cause some mayhem), I'm happy. If something changes, I adapt and play on.

I have never believed that any "rebalancing" has "nerfed one of my characters into uselessness." I have never deleted thanks to any power change. I enjoy playing whole characters, and every single character is more than the sum of a few powers.

All this just seems like a silly thing to get one's undies in a twist about. It makes me wonder if the folks who obsess over every second of recharge and maximum efficiency have difficulty separating work and play. The things one does for entertainment are supposed to be fun. The things that are tedious or stressful should not be done for fun. If you are going to do something tedious and / or stressful, you should be getting paid for it in some way. I usually call this kind of activity "work."

Maybe it is just me, but I have never understood the value that so many people place in bringing "work" into what they do for entertainment.