Leo_G

Translation: Lotus Drop.

Query: How? Stalkers don't get the PBAoE attack, Lotus Drop...

Meh. You can get 3 crits in that span by starting out with a high powered attack (in this case, CU), eventually a focused AS crit + whatever after thanks to the ATO proc. In that case, beauty is only skin deep. All the orange numbers will pop up closer together but it'll take longer and add up to less...

Well the reason I say 'linked alts' instead of just separate builds is because currently separate builds are all locked to the same level. I can switch to a fresh build that I haven't done right now and it be set to lvl 1 and all I have to do is pick all the powers/slots until it's the same lvl as the other build. A 'linked alternate build' should be different in that they'd be under the same character name but have it's own independent xp/lvl. They should also have independent incarnate powers for the sake of balance, but if not, that could be considered too much of a perk (you don't have to run a whole bunch of trials! Just make a linked alt and share the powers with new builds!).

TL;DR: Alternate build = same everything, just fresh slots. Linked Alternate Character = same name, same badges, same inf, same inventory; different powers/AT/origin/level/xp/incarnate. Not sure about costume slots...probably couldn't share those at all...

For whatever reason I bump into you, Sapph, I end up wanting to give you a high five...so...

/high five

I posted about that idea a couple of times. link.

But yeah, I totally want that. Since my main specializes in blades, he'd use ever sword set (sans Broadsword until it got better animations) and minor in Martial Arts (lvl locked at 30). My stalker already has multiple versions of him (claws/dark and spines/dark Stalker, dark/thorns dom and needs TW for Stalker) plus around 4 other characters have at least 2 versions of them....yeah, I'd need that to be able to *fully* realize my characters.

If I were redesigning Electric Blast, I'd have used one of my favorite spell effects in other games/fiction. From Atlantica Online, to Magic the Gathering to even WoW, I'd give electric blast the 'Mana Burn' effect.

Basically, any foe with END above, like 75% (not much thought in that number...60% seems too low a gap and 80% wouldn't give you much opportunity) would either take extra damage, have their HP debuffed by a percent of their current END or be debuffed (probably -regen). Then you have the option of overloading their own energy to fight against them through 'over charge' or completely shut them down by draining all their endurance.

But I like the thought of burning off their high endurance bar for a chunk of extra damage...

My advice? Use it to kill things. If it's that much of an issue to KB foes, spreading your ST dmg around some then pile on the red inspirations + Aim to take out much of the group, it'd be difficult to complain about. Then just lance whoever's left with your other blasts.

The way his torso is spinning reminds me of some romans my stalker was beating last night. I one-shotted one of the engineers and when he lay clumpled over dead, his head was spinning around and around like some sort of Exorcist movie. It was freaky. I wanted to record it but I didn't have any such program running at the time

Wasn't dissing your opinion, more stating that I don't think it's necessary to add more onto KM because it has many extras and options already. As for proof, I don't feel like digging through those posts at the moment but it was mainly talk by other posters on some dev statement about the 100% proc on Fireball was a bug (which got changed). Even if nothing does come of it, KM has PLENTY to boast about as is.

And when one considers the ease and frequency of use, this factors into the strength of whatever effect is being added. It also should factor what attack was given up for AS. Some sort of offensive boost would be appropriate for AS's that replaced a strong AoE, or the magnitude be slightly more effective instead. For utility powers, utility effects and so on.

I don't think it's required that whatever replaces Demoralize has to be analogous, because the purpose of Demoralize was to help survivability of a frail AT and *that* changed with the various HP buffs. Since Scrappers did equal or more damage and could take an alpha+tank, Stalkers were given demoralize to aid a team instead...well Stalkers don't need that anymore, plain and simple.


Why do you feel we shouldn't have to give things up in order for things to be improved on in other ways? This confounds me, that the population of these forums seem to all think this way. Just buff it and buff it and buff it...you don't have to counter anything, just slap more ontop....It's all fine and dandy for you, after you have your nice shiny power, but it only leads to more people comparing one set to another...or one AT to another...

Why did Dark Melee get -ToHit debuff added along with demoralize? Now it can debuff way more than other set...Why does Energy Melee get knockdown that just wastes demoralize? It's not as good as the others....Why do Stalkers get crazy DPS, team-aid debuffs and an alpha-breaker while Scrappers don't get anything of the sort? Why do Stalkers get a pass on higher HP if they're suppose to be frail? What about the frail Blaster's HP?

It all just leads to more and more buffs if you don't try to counter it. I'm only suggesting changing demoralize because it's really not very useful anymore. With a Stalker buffed for HP, you're not that squishy. With high powered ST attacks or AoEs, you don't need to start with AS anymore. With new AS, you're using it more often *during* a fight vs from hide/at the start and since Demoralize does not stack with multiple applications, it's automatically more situational and therefore less useful.

And as a Kinetic Melee user, you have to remember: you've been enjoying the sweet life. While other sets, like Dark Melee isn't directly compensated for the exchange of the more effective Soul Drain, or Energy Melee getting practically nothing extra out of it's higher tier powers, or Martial Arts losing all of its AoE, Kinetic Melee gets arguably equal milage out of Build up and Stalker's reliable means of refreshing it and 100% crit chance from Hide on Burst.

That you'd get a simple dmg debuff INSTEAD OF demoralize should be considered a gift considering the devs probably have their eye on taking away one of your other tools (talking about that crit chance on Burst). That is, what I'm trying to say is Kinetic Melee isn't in a position to bargain for anything.

I think the point is, you're rather late to be attempting to preserve AT concepts. Stalkers already have some sets not befitting of a stealthy type character and as of current, the AT has been changed to something that isn't very stealthy anyway. I can tell you right now, playing my most subtle and stealthy stalker in concept, capability and style (Dark Melee/WP), he is no longer stealthy. If I play him stealthy, he becomes less effective. If I play him unstealthy, he demolishes foes in a heartbeat. I can turn off hide (and I just did on the tip mission I just finished) and there is little, if any, difference in his performance.

Tanker got Super Reflexes which isn't very 'tanky'.

Brutes got Katana which isn't very 'SMASHy'.

If Stalkers are suppose to be any amounts of limited by what they can't do, then at least they should have the same limits as Scrapper since they're practically the same now...

...and yes I've had a concept for a Super Strength Stalker, as well as a Titan Weapons Stalker and they'd be *VERY* 'Stalkerish' considering what makes a stalker a stalker isn't what they do but how they do it.

What debuffs do TW have? A menial ST -def/-res? I don't think it compares to spines debuffs. Spines is also capable of immobilizing bosses where TW is lucky to keep a boss stunned for a few seconds (but that may be more the nature of stuns).

If Spines gets looked at, it most likely will have much of it's debuffs cut in the process, most likely the -rech and minor immobilize. The -movement would be limited to certain powers (like Impale, Spine Burst and Throw Spines) with the only secondary effect that's universal would be the Toxic DoT. IMO, that's fair.

But I'm rather tired of hearing all these calls for buffs but they don't want to give anything up (or heck, even acknowledge they're asking for a lot). They're more engaged in finding justification for their wants instead. Just because you think you deserve something doesn't mean you do.

THANK YOU!

When I speak of that whole power creep thing, Dominator is one AT I had in mind. Not that they're too powerful, they're just dang powerful. But my issue with them is, their whole identity was the Jekyll and Hyde duality of it...

How many players actually /keybinded a costume change with the press of Domination? I know I had a few...because that was one of the reasons I really enjoyed the AT. But now domination doesn't feel quite as important, most of its buffs were just stacked onto the base of the AT. I don't even incorporate it into the character's concept anymore; domination is just an extra-mez button.

I say you should give Stalker's a shot. Just don't go into it with a 'ninja' concept or anything. Just think of it more like a 'killer' or 'bloodlust fighter'...which is a shame because that's what a lot of my scrappers pretty much are: guys that love to fight and are good at it, pure and simple. The simplified Stalker is much better than the original but it can still be fun if you give it a chance.

Yet the main difference with that and this is...Blasters were changed because they had trouble competing. Stalkers were changed because people were jealous of Scrappers or disliked being bullied with names (I never minded lolstalkers...only when it got in the way of my proliferated sets did I mind) not because they couldn't compete. Worse yet, they were changed to compete better by dismissing things they used to do, basically proving the idiots that go spouting 'lolstalkers' were right. I hate letting idiots think they're right but what ya gonna do?

Comparing to the top heavy hitters of Eagle's Claw and Midnight Grasp (Crushing Uppercut is probably the best but the set is an outlier, IMO. Every set isn't going to have a Crushing Uppercut), some powers of choice would be:

Katana's Soaring Dragon is only 58% of the damage of EC or MG but animates practically a second and a half faster than EC and half a second faster than MG. On the other hand, Golden Dragonfly does 78% of their damage but can hit multiple targets.

Electric Melee has Thunder Strike which will hit a target for 62% of EC/MG's damage but will also hit up to 10 more foes.

Dual Blades' Vengeful only does, like, 40% of EC/MG but One Thousand Cuts does over 80% of EC/MG's dmg and in an AoE...it's basically like using Disembowel on 10 foes.

As for the non-guaranteed criticals, you seem to contradict yourself since earlier you state:

"The 60% chance for a critical hit? I can live with that."

Which is far and away better than what Scrappers get, 10-15% at best. (by the way, I don't believe hidden critical chance is affected by any outside buffs...it's flat out 50% while excluding Stalker's other buff states while hidden.) But then the point isn't if you have a hard hitter or not...it's what can you do to exploit AS to its fullest and to do that, you do not use it from hide.


This circular logic of yours doesn't really leave me with anything to even reply to...and not in a "you covered all your bases in this argument" kind of way. It's like this:

-1. You say AS problem was it was a 1 oft used power at the start. That it was interruptible. That beyond that, it was a waste. That it wasn't very usable because there's ample opportunity to be dropped from hide. And the new changes fixes this.

+1. Not only has nearly none of that changed, but you go on to accuse me of saying these changes as being 'bad' or 'wrong' when I simply just don't think they're 'right'. Morally, you can make a decision that isn't right but still it not be wrong.

++1. You then go on to *ignore* that the changes I was shooting for won't make AS from hide interruptible, will give the foe less opportunity to drop you from hide and would be seen as a boon when you regain hide rather than a *bug* like the ATO proc.

-2. With a straight face, you say this change makes Stalker more unique, much different from Scrappers. That they're fun to play now and rainbows and cupcakes.

+2. I'm sorry to invoke him again, but it was his argument against my ideas back in the day. Angry_Citizen called gimmicky for what it was and this just adds more complexity to the AT, and not in a good way.

++2. The gimmicks Stalkers have were not improved, just more added ontop. This means, the gimmick that works best is what will be exploited and everything else ignored or downplayed. This is also not good.

Catalyzed ++2. No one apparently sees this as a problem. They only see what they want to accept in front of them. Rather than *improving* what they have, more junk is added an everyone's happy. But this isn't like a powerset with a specific gimmick that if you don't like it you can just play something else. This is like adding combos to Doms where, the only way they can click Domination is if they hold a foe, spank it twice and *then* domination lights up. The key difference between set combos an AT combos is *YOU CAN'T IGNORE IT*. Instead of leaving to play a new set, you have to leave and play a new AT.

-3. You keep saying I have an apparently limited and specific view of how Stalkers should be. That what I said before, that Stalkers should stay and scrap, had some sort of double or alternate meaning.

+3. No, my view of what Stalkers should be is what they have always been. Yes they should stay and scrap because *running* should only be a tactic if you're *dying* not fighting.

++3. The main point I've had all along is what constitutes as 'Stalking' should have been improved which it was not. The change we got for Stalkers now improves their scraping to a point that doing any type of surgical striking is superfluous. There was no alternate meaning to what I said before and what I add to that now is this change has practically altered the very DNA of the AT.

Catalyzed ++3. That you don't seem to care what Stalkers have become is the entire reason I bothered posting in this thread. How many actually care what Stalkers used to be about, currently? In the face of what they are now, it's too late to overturn. I'll just go on to say what they are is what they are and if you try to pass off what used to be favorable as passable on current stalkers without some sort of disclaimer, I'll pull a Venture and just browbeat these changes into whomever misinforms.


It's rather hard to say my favorite AT is Scrappers when I have more Stalkers, my most powerful character is a Corruptor and I'm currently playing a Dom. But Scrappers are my favorite because my main is one.

That said, the basic difference between the ATs is very blurry as Brutes and Scrappers generally have the same performance and similar feel. But the main point is that it's similar. Brutes feel a bit different because they have fury, Tankers feel different because they have better mitigation and Guantlet and Stalkers felt different because they had hide and AS. The only thing that made Scrapper feel different was decent DPS but beyond that, they only feel different by what they *don't* have and that's extra gimmicks.

Now that Stalkers can push toward that DPS, that's one less thing that really makes Scrappers distinct. Even if regular damage was pushed up a bit to help Stalkers compete, Scrappers would still have that place. But that's not what happened at all. What was changed was being rewarded for scrapping...and not just on top of what you got. You have the burst you could do with Stalkers before with lower DPS in one hand and better DPS but lack of demoralize in the other and you have to choose which, to stalk or scrap. The obvious answer is scrap since to stalk wasn't made any more attractive and kept all its shortcomings.

I haven't seen if a Stalker can eventually out-scrap a Scrapper but I'll make danged sure, since that's what everyone wants, that's what you'll get. Apparently that's what the dev's thoughts were with this change, anyway.


Not trying to change anything, really. I just stand by my statements then and now. If anything, it's simply the chance to prove to myself what Stalkers have truly become. I know, deep down, what they used to be and what they are now but that's mainly in thought...putting my money where my mouth is, so to speak. I don't think I've asked anyone to change anything and I'm not going to do anything new except play.

Pinn it is. I've got a DM stalker I've been meaning to brush off. I'll see if I can log on this weekend some time.

And please stop trying to put words in my mouth. Just from that first paragraph, I can tell you don't know what view I have on the game. And if you don't know then don't speak up for me please.

And if I want to have a chip on my shoulder, you damned well better believe I will do so. But then I'm not one to sit around bitter about it, no. In fact, I'm doing the opposite. I'm going to prove to you and everyone, that what Stalkers are aren't 'Stalkers' any more than a Scrapper with maneuvers and Aid Other is a Defender. Rationalize how you *think* it makes fights 'different', 'more engaging', etc, than a Scrapper...it's still buttons 3,2,1 > AS, so formulaic I will prove its effects in-game, right to your face.

What server do you play on, Sam? Infinity? Pinnacle? I'll buy paragon points (I have yet to do that) to get a server transfer and hop on some teams with you. I can even roll up a new alt if you so fancy.


I only ask you not to bother saying this anymore. At least an 'in my opinion' added on there otherwise explain that you're effectively getting less DPS from it.

Shouldn't you be busy with school work since you can't post in the RP thread? I mean, a brain-dead post there is about as good as a brain-dead post here, amirite?

If you build a Scrapper with aggro management tools and focus on mitigation, yes you can make a Scrapper into an inferior Tanker.

And if you build a Tanker focused on purely damage such as a solo build, you can make a Tanker that does good damage but most likely not as good as a damage focused Scrapper.

But then none of that is relevant to the subject at hand, now is it? Stalkers were altered to enhance their DPS performance. Scrappers fill the exact same role. All you have to do is sum up what the changes did and it shouldn't be too difficult to connect the dots even if you're brain dead.

I'm not even going to bother with a point by point commentary on that rant. Because you're tempered, it'd only add fuel and make it even more difficult for you to understand the changes.


Note: Do not be mistaken. I haven't nor ever said the new changes to stalkers make them worse or did not improve them.

Soliloquy: When hearing about the changes initially, I was sure it'd be too powerful outright to give AS a 1sec uninterruptible critical hit 100% of the time by just fulfilling 3 attacks. That'd be rather ridiculous and would near unhidden AS very close to hidden AS. Requiring more hits or simply making it not a guarantee would help fulfill balance of the power. A chance for building Assassin's Focus was another option, but how they implemented it was, again, backwards. They issued guaranteed focus for harder hitting (and by definition, longer recharging) attacks. If it had used the smaller, weaker ones, opening with the tier 9 wouldn't put you so close to 3 stacks and you'd have to throw out 3 weak hits to set the foe up. But opening with hard hitters lopsides the damage in favor of non-hidden AS since it's faster, safer, and you get additional effects from your attack. It never was that hidden-AS was 'bad', but unhidden-AS is better...markedly better if the high powered attack used is also good. Using hidden AS is only favorable in low lvls (when you don't have other high powered attacks), if the target has enough HP to absorb the full attack and if you do not mind lower DPS for the bonus of Demoralize...which, itself isn't amazing but helps.

Collary: Assassin's Strike was never meant to be used in combat unless proper measures were taken. That these changes addresses a problem that only existed when you forced it on yourself is tangential. Yes, it allows you to use AS without hide easily which addresses the problem of trying to use it improperly...but the proposition I made also makes it easier to use since it'd not only be *the* attack from hide to use, but also *the* attack to use with placate, increasing your chances for your inherent, Assassination, to affect the power.

Tangent: I'm certain Stalkers have an entire primary besides Assassin's Strike. That easily solves what a Stalker should do after using Assassin's Strike.

Reformation: I'm certain, since mechanics have been added along with Stalker's improvements, something about regaining Hidden status to more readily take advantage of the improved hidden AS and bonus Demoralize could have been made.

And on an objective aside, the changes improve some sets more than others. Not concerning AoE vs ST, but in the overall utility and effectiveness of the AT. It doesn't take a fortune teller to see *more* buffs on top of more fluff to neutralize this. All in all, it leads down the slippery slope of power creep.

Also, this:

"What I find ironic is you used to be the guy who would constantly argue that Stalkers shouldn't try to play like in a Splinter Cell game, constantly trying to rehide and hope for more Hidden Criticals, and should instead stand and fight like their AT permitted. "

You can cut the back patting, memory lane BS. Because, if you bothered to listen to me then, why did you stop listening to me now? And I know you're not listening because the entire hue of your posts colors that you barely even read or comprehend what I type. Your whole post seems like it it took a wrong turn before you even got out of the driveway.

Wow, I must be in some kind of topsy-turvey world...or maybe it wasn't you, UberGuy, who always complained about Stalkers being ST focused.

So not only is it the powerset that's either ST or AoE focused, but apparently its 'good' to use hidden AS and no one will ever complain about it being interruptible. It's fixed apparently by...frankly, I don't know. AFAICS, nothing has changed for hidden AS and yet it's fixed.

Don't forget that the -ToHit does not stack with other casters and it only lasts 8 seconds.

Which is namely my point and the evidence of which is within the posts of those in this very thread.

The faults of the AT were the situational burst damage being countered by systematic problems of the game. But rather than tend to those issues, they go ignored. Worse yet, they altered the AT from its original intent and then label it as fixed. Even worse yet, many are so blind by elitism and storms of comparative analysis that they actually believe their views were to help the AT when in fact, they simply destroyed it. And the worst, posters are still advising to use this unsupported strategy in light of the changes for whatever reason...soothe their conscience, novelty...can't be nostalgia...

But rather than gathering all those points you mentioned that make Hide, Placate and AS unwieldy and situational together then *fix* them to run more smoothly...they're instead shattered, separated and/or forgotten instead.

Right, because now there is no dichotomy...or choice. There is no difference between the two ATs. We're all now Scrappers with scarcely an element apart except one may have an AoE while the other has Energy Transfer.

And for what? Because Scrappers puff out their chests and made you feel inferior. It long stopped being about 'Fixing Stalkers' and became 'Making Stalkers as good or better than Scrappers'.



Speculation: with the old version of Stalkers, had they had the new IO, I feel they'd have been a lot better. Had they addressed Hidden AS, placate and Stalker burst damage rather than focusing on DPS and plain button mashing, I believe it'd have helped the AT all the same while keeping the ATs distinctive.

At least we don't have to pretend what I was saying before the beta was some sort of exaggeration. We all admit it; Stalkers are just Scrappers with Energy Transfer. I know, so far, I've been forgoing hidden AS for AoE burst from Spines, seamlessly into AS then clean up with recharged AoE. I'm sure when I get around to my Elec and Kin stalkers, it'll be the same...and I don't have any ATOs to slot on them either.

I'm not sure if I find these statements extremely hilarious because of how hypocritical they are or just really annoyed because I had been saying similar before the changes happened but probably the same people would say the exact opposite. Using AS from hide hasn't changed...and yet, it's somehow no longer a waste of endurance to try to use it despite the seemingly impossible feat of not being interrupted? Or when trying to point out the reason to use the tactic, only *NOW* is demoralize worth considering despite it not being changed either? Wow, you guys must be conveniently hand waving all those old arguments away now because nothing has come about to make those arguments any different.

I wouldn't go suggesting to new/returning Stalkers to use hidden AS anymore unless they just want to...only in the low lvls when it's your highest fastest hitting ST attack and/or if you wanted to make *sure* the target is hit. To tell someone to use outdated tactics to preserve some unanimously unfavorable aberration is just spreading more false information.

Because you have an AoE attack that can soften up a larger group. Or you have a faster animating high-tier power that will do quite a bit of damage while building up 1 shot of focus practically guaranteed...and AS will be sure to be recharged when you first get 3.

Yeah, same specialness as my fully slotted snipe being used to finish off the last runner with a high powered ranged critical...it's a novelty. The old Stalker always was just a novelty, and new Stalker is just a Scrapper

Give it time. Importunate conformity doesn't happen in a day but it'll grow wider as more catch on.