Leo_G

Rephrased to: "...but because *I don't think* it suits the class' primary purpose in the sense of tanks, and *I* don't think it provides enough of a benefit for how late it comes in the set."

It's been said to death what the powers can do and different uses for them. Now it's solely on your opinion what works for your playstyle.

And guess what? Stealth is already more effective for Armor classes because it offers *more armor* which is the only differencing effect they should have. Just because a Tanker or Scrapper have more potent armors doesn't mean they should have better stealth than a Blaster or Controller. The only AT that should be able to use stealth better is Stalker and *guess what*? They already can because they have the ability to stack Stealth with other stealth powers.

That a Tanker can use Gauntlet or Scrappers can use Crits with pool attacks has nothing to do with them using melee attacks better. That's just their inherent ability. That the attacks had to be mechanically changed to incorporate the inherent is a limitation on how powers are in the game, *not* some thematic decision that they're just better with them than others.

That a Defender can use Leadership powers better is simple AT modifiers. Every buff power, pool or otherwise, is more effective for them.

IMO, asking to make Stealth better on a Tanker or Brute is like asking for Hover and Fly to be better on a Blaster. WHY!?

Checked my /EA brute and my /Storm corruptor...

You're giving me a lot to nit-pick...and I have a horrible habit to nit-pick.

Shadow Fall doesn't give fear 'protection', it offers fear 'resistance' which lowers the duration of fear type mezzes on teammates.

Also, re-hiding does *NOT* drop aggro. As long as a foe remains aggressive toward you (or even just a teammate), they will still retain or gain aggro on you. This is related to 'Spawns have linked aggro'. I've played many stalkers and one issue you run into is, if you don't jump into the fight fast enough after your team, the enemy will start attacking you *even through hide*.

And I'll change my previous statement to: The stealth of Cloak of Darkness/Energy Cloak/Steamy Mist/Shadowfall/etc only *Partially* suppresses.

Checking CoD, Cloak of Darkness/Energy Cloak have only 1 value for their defense that does not suppress. They both have 2 values for stealth, +389 stealth that suppresses when you click a glowie or attack and +35 stealth that only suppresses when you click a glowie. Same for Steamy Mist and Shadow Fall. They all have a measure of stealth that will not suppress unless you click a glowie. It makes sense now that I think about it cause I've tried to stealth a mission and though "Hah, my stealth doesn't suppress!" and met with a volley of attacks.

I'm not sure about Greater Invisibility, as it has 2 stealth values (+60 and +667) neither of wish has a tag to suppress...

Stealth has no affect on aggro other than not obtaining aggro through normal line-of-sight. Having stealth doesn't make you lose aggro or weakens the affect of taunts so I fail to see your issue with the power.

[EDIT] PS: Stealth also has 2 values for its stealth buff but both are marked to suppress upon attacking or clicking a glowie. So for completeness sake, you were right and I was wrong that the armor stealths suppress but you were wrong that they provide no stealth benefit after your first action.

Just an aside, but this was only true when Stalkers had the scaling Assassin's Strike on Test which scaled the damage of the attack by rank. The change never made it to live as I think it gave Stalkers the ability to solo GMs.

No, they don't. Especially not Steamy Mist/Shadow Fall. I can attest to this because I've sat and soloed x3 and x4 villain spawns on my Claws/EA brute and attacked a foe from a group while in direct view of their allies without them noticing. Using mez (like Focus' knockdown) or defeating a foe will more often than not alert the rest of the spawn. An entire spawn's aggro is linked so alerting one usually alerts the others but separate spawns do not have linked aggro. I cannot count how many times the team stealth powers aid in separating spawn hate.

If they changed those two powers to suppress on a Tanker then that's unfortunate but I know for a fact they don't on a Brute.

Well, I didn't say it would be *bad* solo, just not spectacular. I mean, how does Psychic Blast rank in blaster set?

Really, it all comes down to how the set is mapped out. It'd determine the actual playstyle of the set and *then* you balance it around how it should play out. While burst damage is great for a soloing blaster, it's all relative when you take into account if the set is AoE focused or ST focused, AoE control or ST control, hard or soft control, etc. etc.

That's why I thought the basis of the idea was interesting. It *could* work but given its disadvantage of low burst damage, what does it get in return? Is it more damage/END on the attacks? AoE hard control? Reliable damage on teams? Anything like that can swing its balance from good to bad to overpowered. An alteration in normal Blaster playstyle can make the set quite effective, like turning a corner after you apply your DoTs or phasing or using /Ice's controls to buy you the time for the damage to take effect.

Also, low aggro doesn't make you team-inclined. Not exactly. Low aggro on the attacks would be a purely self preservation effect, with a similar advantage on self survival as Stalker stealth+placate and the stealth toggles in the melee ATs armor sets. Except with the high dmg AoE nature of Blasters, the effect would be more profound. How the effect plays out solo, again, depends how the set is mapped out.

Lastly, why the heck does the set (suggested by the OP) do nearly every damage type in the game? What is the theme/concept of the set to do that!? Does it actually *need* to do that? I can see 2-3 dmg types, but why the heck use all of them?

You never heard of Street Sharks?



Yeah, me neither...

Well, Frozen Aura is 10ft radius and Salt Crystals is 20ft while your standard PBAoE damage aura is 8ft. So take that for what it's worth. It's possible extra control outside normal range and possible long lasting mez if you actually *try* to use it.

As for Stalker Repulse, I won't argue that it's a good power but maybe you just aren't using it right? As a 'mass control' power, it's not bad considering the other stuff available (basically Smoke Flash, caltrops, Oppressive Gloom/Cloak of Fear). When you need room, toggle it and fling stuff away. Should give you enough time to pull of an AS if you want.

For Tanker/Brute stealth, sometimes you *don't* want to aggro that spawn near the one you're fighting. Not because you're not ready but maybe because your team isn't. Maybe a rez is needed and aggroing that extra group will prolong the fight. It helps that Cloak of Darkness/Energy cloak are *not* like Stealth and never suppress until you turn them off. It's like Defender's Shadowfall/Steamy mist, it's aggro control. If you don't want it then you don't have to take it. Also, if you just want to be a Tanker/Brute that just smashes faces without being the designated meat shield then that option is there too.

I don't say that. Really, both are good and have different purposes. Stuff like Fault and Air superiority that knocks a foe in place is nice to give yourself breathing time to use something like Aid Self or Assassin's Strike. But mitigating damage is only its side effect (although Fault as a power is a mitigating juggernaut due to the added stun and AoE and Air superiority is good because it's chainable).

KB is good because it gives you the ability to move a foe where you want it on top of mitigating their attacks. It helps that lots of foes from minions up to bosses don't resist KB so you can keep a boss on their butt easier with KB until you have them held. Being able to put foes in taunt auras and AoEs is its primary use.

I'm not getting into the whole -KB IO debate again so I'll just say why not actually *try* to use KB like it's suppose to be used? Granted, it's not perfect to use in every instance but neither are a lot of other effects.

Because you hang out with alot of herding sheep farmers?

Funny how all those words are different aspect of the same player but fit so nicely together...

I actually liked that name the best

I mean, it ends a combo where you're poking a mass of enemies into the air with a *spear*. There's bound to be at least a little blood somewhere.

Really, this debate will never have a solution. It puts players who just play the game using all its variances at odds with the players that just want to tab and click. Basically, hearders vs not-as-much-a-hearder. I don't really care anymore though. If KB were changed to KD, I would be really disappointed in the game's direction but then so far I haven't been issued a major disappointment and it's bound to happen sometime the longer I play.

As for KB not mitigating anything. *THAT IS WRONG* and you should feel bad for thinking it does.

If using KB in all instances somehow caused you to take direct damage, *then* it mitigates nothing. If you can't be arsed with adjusting your position to get some enemies in your buff auras then why are you playing the game at all? It's like playing a fighting game but you can't be bothered pushing buttons to beat the other player...Play the game, people!

Well yeah, no power is truly all important. A tanker can go around without mez protection. It's not that important. They can still take damage. But if you want to actually hold aggro, you need to be able to do stuff when the enemy throws mezzes at you.

If you just want to shoot stuff as a blaster then yeah, you don't need the melee attacks. But if you want to do the absolute most amount of damage possible, those melee attacks help.

Yes. Yes I did.

Mainly to talk and gauge what people actually want of such a set.

Just to clear that up, I did put them with '/'s and not ','s to indicate they are related.

Actually, Willpower has 2 +regen powers, Rise to the Challenge and Fast healing...but that's besides the point.

-def isn't synonymous with weapons. It's synonymous with piercing. That's the thing. -def is mechanically piercing/bypassing armor. Radiation blast has the secondary effect of -def because it is an energy wave that can travel through solid objects with exception to material specifically designed to insulate the specific radiation. As for defense equaling evasion, it's basically being harder to dodge when you're cut up. To physically move out of the way, you have to be in good condition to move to your fullest range of motion. SR has +res in its passives as it loses HP because, as you take more damage and it gets tougher to keep going because you're beat up, you roll with the punches, softening the blows that do land by moving with the attack rather than standing your ground. So resistance isn't just being invulnerable either.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, simply using the mechanics of the game, a spear set should *just* do -def. Because if the set is 'good at piercing the enemy' then that's -def. How do you explain it lowering the foe's resistance? How do you explain that other piercing weapons do not lower resistance.

My explanation? You're focusing on bleeding the foe. Simple as that.

*Sigh*
But it's not and it isn't and I didn't. Just like you can pretend your broadsword is magical or technological, you can pretend the spear is natural or scientifical etc *with the concept in tact*. Explain to me how you *can't* or stop repeating yourself

Actually, they did. They're called Slugs. The reason they fell from use, if I would guess, is that armor could be built to protect against slugs but such personal armor couldn't take a direct blaster shot yet, because the armor would need to be thick, would still inhibit movement. Also, as blasters became more popular, Slugthrowers became more rare and therefore more expensive. The weapon needs ammo too while a blaster just needs an energy cell. Each weapon had it's own advantages though.

Personally, and from an RP perspective (which is where this argument is, right?) that's bull. It's the person using the weapon, not the weapon that determines what can and can't be done. In an RP, if you can dodge or swat bullets away, then why would you ever take damage at all? Basically, if I were the GM and you brought such a character to me, there would be limits. Maybe you can dodge a shot from someone who isn't a pro aim or if it's a normal bullet but when faced against a named foe, he'll probably have some ammo or trick shot that will make evading it difficult.

*Clap*

I guess we're done here. But just like was said in the "Good Character names are hard to come by" thread, simple generic 'easy' names are limited. Once a power name like 'Stab' and 'Thrust' are gone, adding descriptors is direction you must take. And apparently, people think descriptive names are 'better' in the long run. They sound cooler and are easier to abbreviate (you have to spell out Swipe, Strike, Focus, etc when talking about claws attacks but when speaking of Katana you can say GC, SotW, DA, GD, SD, LD, FS (I just put up the entire katana set using the same amount of letters as 3 attacks in Claws!))

As a designer, you gotta sell something from all angles *including* the name. Katana does this because the names have a flavor that's in line with the set. Claws is generic (and that's all right) and has no flavor when it comes to the names. And when it comes down to what the names do (extra yet optional flavor), why not give colorful names? Because you can't be bothered with it interfering with your extremely tight expectations for concepts?

Sorry if I sound angry but I am. It's like spitting on someone because they're different or not conforming to your ideals. It's annoying.

That is to say, I'm not strongly backing the names and concepts I'm presenting. I'm strongly backing flavor. Flavor is *good* and you have the option to ignore it if you don't like it. I'd rather have something there to use or ignore instead of it being so generic it's not worth the effort to use or ignore.

I'd actually argue that Stalkers also play the role of threat eliminator. On teams, I'm not only concerned about dealing damage but *who* to take out. I guess you can say any AT can do that but a Brute is usually concerned with the enemy as a group, the MM is doing the same + his pets, the Dom is more about keeping himself alive + control in the AoE perspective and the Corr is paying attention to the team. Being free of aggro and certain responsibilities can offer tactical advantages. But it can be a curse as well. Someone that doesn't know what to do with their stalker will pretty much be an extra wheel on the team.