LaserJesus

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Dude, Statesman can't be wrong about his own game.

And if you want to make Blade a Magic origin, go right ahead.

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Ahem, no game can completely duplicate fiction. Fiction is far too fluid, in all reality, the fictional characters mostly fall in between the gaps of the origins.

However, just because you use magic doesn't necessarily mean you have to take the magic origin.

DnD wizards I would not place under the magic origin because a high powered wizard can still be completely independent of any influence by higher powers. A high powered magic origin NEEDS that aid or he falters (limits himself to the DOs). DnD priests and Dragonlance wizards are more analogous to the CoH magic origin.

A D&D wizard studies and studies and studies and hones his body and mind by sheer training to channel cosmic forces. He does not turn to Hermes or Joule or anybody else and say, hey, I want power. That's seems more in the realm of natural to me than anything else. And it is backed up because the naturals use relics as one of their DOs.

Same with a werewolf, unless the werewolf is a priest of some kind, he doesn't demand power from anywhere but himself. As he continues, he grows more powerful, but all the power comes from with in. Sounds more like a mutation than a magic.

To put simply:

Magic and Technology get power from sources outside the hero himself.

Science was granted the power from external sources but afterwards it is entirely internal and not dependent on outside influence save in improving it.

Mutants are generally born with the power or are altered to a degree beyond what a science hero is. They develop naturally.

Naturals build their own power and work very hard to acheive the pinnacle of their ability.

In all cases, the power is the same. Lightning cast by a mage is the same as lightning fired by a tech-blaster.

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Again... I shall quote the origins.
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The magical hero receives his powers from a magical source. These abilities might stem from a mystical artifact that the hero has gained over the years - or perhaps the hero has mastered numerous spells that provide him with superhuman gifts.


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In other words, DnD wizards=Magic.

And yes, no game can completely copy fiction. But out of the 5 origins that are available to us, Superman=Natural.

He uses powers common to his race, i.e. Super Strength, flight, blah blah is no big deal to any Kryptonian who isn't under the influence of a red sun. Plus, Superman when he was 14 is nowhere near as good as Superman at 30. Why? Loads of practice. That pretty much falls in the Natural line too.

You know, I don't remember...

EDIT: Oh yeah, it started with me showing someone some options for a natural travel power after they asked for some natural-esque travel powers in Update 3. (I'd still like a Batman-esque Grapple for upward movement and Zipline for forward movement, sure it'd take a while but it'd be a blast)
And then someone posted on origins, then I posted how he had a couple errors, then a person posted disagreeing that Superman isn't natural.........

And... yeah.

Dude, Statesman can't be wrong about his own game.

And if you want to make Blade a Magic origin, go right ahead.

I'm talking about Superman, and I'm just going to quote the PMs:

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What origin is Superman?

Sent to: Statesman

I've had discussions (who am I kidding, arguements) with people about which of the 5 origins in CoH that Superman would be. Most say he's natural, a couple say he's science, but I seem to be the only one who thinks he's mutant.

I say this because Naturals train to get their powers. Mutants are born with them. Superman got his powers after being under the yellow sun for an extended period, not by training extensively. Sure he had to learn how to use them, but not any further than a human had to learn to walk.

So I'm PMing you because you invented the origins (or at least I assume you did) and am hoping you could put this problem to rest once and for all.

(This was longer than 4 sentences, but that's just for suggestions, right?)



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And his reply:

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Re: What origin is Superman?

From: Statesman

Natural.



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EDIT: On Blade, yes, vampires are magical. But, he is not a vampire. He is a half-vampire, so therefore, he was not inflicted with vampirism, he was born with it, i.e. abberant genetics i.e. Mutant Origin.

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Just a minor point but since when was being half vampire natural? (Blade) Not sure which origin to fit it in (probably mutant - he was born that way) but certainly not natural...

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Yeah, I'd say Mutant, due to abberant genetics.

Ok, like I said before, Statesman, the maker of the origins for City of Heroes, replied to my PM and told me he was Natural.

Do you want me to quote it here?

But you'd still be wrong.

I thought of Superman as falling into the Mutant category, as in his powers come from his genetics, but Statesman told me otherwise, and I do see it now. He's Natural, because he has just realized the potential of what a Kryptonian can achieve, just as hyperly-trained martial artists have realized the potential they can achieve.

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Super Jump?
I say yes. Also, take Samurai Jack, the living embodiment of what it means to be a natural hero, there was an episode where some ape-men taught him how to jump super-high by having him jump with rocks tied to his back.

Have some imagination, we're in a comic book game after all.

(Plus Statesman is Natural)

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Okay, my take on the origins:

Magic, the main power comes from extradimensional entities, making these guys the avatars/priests/deal-making sorcerers/earthly agent type magicians/creatures. You could even say they are a mutant but they still get most of their power from outside help. Not all magicians should start from a magic origin, some types of magician are better suited to mutant or natural origins.

Mutant: These people have innate power AND they continually developing. A mutant may be sparked by magic, genetics or even a science accident. The thing that sets a magic-based mutant apart from a magic origin is that they don't get outside help, their power is changing them on its own. The thing that sets a science-based mutant apart from a science origin is similar, the development process is natural and ongoing, no experiments are needed to push it along.

Natural: These people gain their powers through intense training, it doesn't just develop like a mutant, it isn't granted by magic or genetic experimentation, and it isn't in a little toy. These are the martial artists, the independent (no extradimensional assistance) mystics, the soldiers, the psychics. They have to work to develop the power.

Science: These people are induced mutations, whether on purpose or accidental. The same accident might produce a mutant and science origin, but the science origin's powers do not naturally progress on their own, without further tampering and experimentation, or supplemenation with gadgets, the hero's powers stagnate.

Technology: These people get their powers from technology. The thing that seperates a tech-bent natural from a tech-origin is the extent to which technology is center of their power. A tech-bent natural uses technology, a tech-origin, even if human at the center, IS technology. Every thing about them lives and breathes tech.


Examples:

Magic: Lina Inverse (power from various demons and the Lord of Nightmares), Doctor Strange (various entities), Elminster (Mystara), Ghost Rider (possesses a human), virtually any anime wizard

Mutant: Werewolf by Night (supernatural power that is internally supported), any X-Men, Zelgadis Greywords, Superman (alien, inborn power), Hannibal King, Hulk (his power develops fairly naturally, he rarely tampers with it), any Gold Digger lycanthrope, the High Magus from Rifts (the ones that slowly become creatures of magic), most dragons

Natural: Batman, Ranma, Blade, Drake (the guy with the anti-supernatural gun who is on the Nightstalkers), Elektra, most D&D wizards, Brianna Diggers (because of her dual tech/mage nature)

Science: Spiderman, Daredevil, a few others

Technology: Gina Diggers, Iron Man, 60s Batman

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Read the origins:

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The Mutant was born with his powers. His innate abilities appeared either at birth or puberty. A rare few did not develop until adulthood. These powers set the mutant apart from the rest of mankind; they are capable of far more than any normal human being. Mutants are sometimes feared for their strange talents, but are more often admired by the public at large.

The Science hero received his powers either through purposeful scientific inquiry or through some accident gone awry. The hero might not understand the forces that bestowed his super powers; all he does understand is that nothing is the same anymore.

A technological hero uses gadgets to battle the forces of evil. No one else has been able to duplicate the amazing technology that lies behind these gadgets. This hero need not be a brilliant inventor; he can also be a normal guy who has received these gizmos from some benefactor.

A natural hero isn't "super" at all; his amazing talents are derived from intense training and innate abilities. He may have been guided since birth to become the physical specimen that he is, or perhaps some tragedy has driven him to seek perfection.

The magical hero receives his powers from a magical source. These abilities might stem from a mystical artifact that the hero has gained over the years - or perhaps the hero has mastered numerous spells that provide him with superhuman gifts.

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DnD wizards are Magic. Anyone who receives their powers from a magical source are Magic origin.

Also, Superman is a Natural. I PMed Statesman about his origin, whether it was Mutant or Natural, and he said natural.

The origins aren't as rigid as people think. A magic hero might be a Demon, a Wizard, a Knight who gets his invulnerability and massive damage from magical relics, or a Cleric who gets his powers from a divine entity.

A Natural hero uses his Natural abilities available to everyone of his race, like a martial artist, or a species of peopel who have claws, or a master swordsman who strikes with proficiency and skill.

A mutant is probably the most rigid of the ATs. They receive their powers from abberant genetics.

Science heroes receive their powers through accidents, an injection of a chemical that increases their strength immensely, or having cosmic essences infused into them.

Tech heroes, well... that's just obvious.

People will of course disagree with me, but whatever!

Super Jump?
I say yes. Also, take Samurai Jack, the living embodiment of what it means to be a natural hero, there was an episode where some ape-men taught him how to jump super-high by having him jump with rocks tied to his back.

Have some imagination, we're in a comic book game after all.

(Plus Statesman is Natural)

Just imagine the coding behind a building that keeps the rest of the world inside... The nightmare of bugs that would arise!

Well, there's the Shadow Shard.

Oooh! Sign me up for the military!

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Not to mention Level 2 Luminous Eidolons who used the level 35 radiation blast.

Funny, Eidolons were always my favorite bosses.

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I hates them, but that means I love to punch them. I'd rather not see them altered because their character is heavily influenced by their powers. Just how scary would a Murk be without Oppressive Gloom, really?

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I miss the low level bosses who fought you with debuffs and (avoidable) status effects instead of super massive damage. But I guess I'm just crazy.

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But not before proving yourself, i.e. reaching level 32!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

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tell that to the outcast boss frostfire(a lvl what, 12-13) and has jack frost and fire imps. not only 2 powers no hero gets till 20 lvls later, but from 2 powersets that said heroes can't take together. now, if cov ends up being coh with just slightly diffrent window dressing(in other words, i only can get certain powers at set lvls, i can't mix my power sets like the npc villans), then whats the point other than pvp, and why bother buying cov, because i've already got a guy who follows the rules i've been playing for some time. people keep saying villans break the rules, but shouldn't that be the same for player char villans?

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Yeah I know, tell that to the damned boss who gets Fire Melee/Fire Blast, tell that to the multitude of other villians who have impossible skill selections.

Villians will have different ATs they said. In other words, different power selections maybe. But I'm sure you won't get nova at level 18 and power blast at 32.

Not to mention Level 2 Luminous Eidolons who used the level 35 radiation blast.

Funny, Eidolons were always my favorite bosses.

But not before proving yourself, i.e. reaching level 32!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hey man, when I started playing I thought the hellions using Combustion was the coolest thing in the world.

I love that 5th mission from the noob contacts that has you go get that crate. "They've been trying to steal it since WWII. Oh and whatever you do, don't look inside!"

Indy's the man! (This is from Raiders from the Lost Ark, if you didn't know.)

And speaking of raiders from the lost ark, where the hell do I find Duray?

We should have it in the center of the country - NO! THE CENTER OF THE EARTH!

Damn my being in school!

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I will say first that I didn't read this whole thread so if any of my ideas have already been posted (which they probably have) I'm sorry.

It wouldn't be unreasonable from a conceptual standpoint to add resists to SR and still be able to explain the power as SR.

Basically through speed and dexterity a character manages to roll with the impact of an attack so that instead of being a direct hit it only "grazes" him. Taking a bullet to the chest would suck but having it graze past your arm isn't nearly as hampering.

Just an idea for a conceptual version of how to add resists to SR.

I want to make a SR scrapper but it just looks so unhealthy that going with Invulnerability is just better.

I do agree however that there doesn't seem to be any logistical way to add a self heal to SR.

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One thing SR has over Inv:Mobile mez resistance. The one reason I never will start an inv scrapper.

I wish I was 38 on test. Oh well. The only big thing that annoys me is the AoE defense 1: I already use enough END on my 1st 2 toggles, and they open up so late. The counter-attack power is real nice, but it should open up late. The mitigation could be integrated into quickness or practiced brawler.

Yeah, PB would make a good resistance power. I always have it up, so it would be a real good addition. I also want to see the AoE combined with the ranged defense. The fact that you get AoE defense so late is kinda lame.

If we can keep this thread alive until the times that the Devs usually start checking the boards, then they'll at least see it.

Until then, keep coming up with ideas!

Heh, or even for those foaming-at-the-mouth Matrix fans you could have a power that "slows time", which would slow movement and attack rate of all villians in a certain radius of you.