Lady_Sadako

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  1. [ QUOTE ]
    Really? Are you sure they didn't just tie the patron powers to content on purpose and by doing so incidentally locked the powers into your character once you've chosen them?

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    Well, yes I am sure. I don't see any reason to believe that permanent, non-respeccable power pool choices were somehow a whoopsy-daisy side effect. Come on, they know how big a deal this is.
  2. [ QUOTE ]
    I think it's lazy that they didn't/won't figure out a way for the patron powers to be respec'd out of.

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    They made it that way on purpose. They're not going to create a situation deliberately and then think of ways to undo it.
  3. [ QUOTE ]
    Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.

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    Given that it's obviously taken special effort to make it like this (they could have just done exactly what they did with CoH and made a set of ancillary power pools) I don't think laziness is the problem.
  4. [ QUOTE ]
    I think it's an all or nothing content. You talk to Arbitor Rein, make your choice do the patron content and now you have your patron power pool. You don't have to actually *take* any power, but you can at level 41.

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    But it could also be the story arcs that release the powers to you. Positron:

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    Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake

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    Not 'before you choose your first power' but 'before you decide which arc'. I could be way off here, of course...
  5. [ QUOTE ]
    I think how Posi was saying it was that the Patron pools are tied to content thus not making it easy to just switch pools/content. But the content in these pools arent required but they are still tied to the pools in case you did (and I doubt people will just skip arc's because I know the 40-50 arcs will have some memorable things, just like CoH had)

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    That's certainly one way to read it. As it stands, we don't know if the patron unlocks a power pool AND optional missions, or if the patron gives missions and the missions unlock the powers, or what.

    When Posi said you don't have to do any of the patron content, he was answering a guy who said his character would never, ever take a patron. Not doing the content sounds to me like skipping the whole deal, powers, missions and all. But I could well be wrong.
  6. [ QUOTE ]
    Do Fred's Patron arc,

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    I doubt a patron who's supposed to be with you from levels 41-50 would only give you one arc. Even regular contacts give you at least two as a rule.
  7. [ QUOTE ]
    Who said it would be limited to 45?

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    If the powers are unlocked by mission content, and that's a big if, then they'll likely fall into the usual 40-45 45-50 division.
  8. [ QUOTE ]
    Lady, I think you read Posi's comment a little off. From how I see it, what he says about the not forced to do Patron content, I think he means You dont have to do the missions associated with them but can still choose the powers.

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    I believe the whole reason for the PPs being unrespeccable was because they were directly linked to the content.

    The way I'd imagine it works is: you do storyarc for patron, storyarc unlocks a pool power, you can then take that power when you level.
  9. [ QUOTE ]
    I don't think that's gonning to be true. Since you won't be able to change the Patron once you have one, it would make sense to go straight to Level 50 without taking any Patron,

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    ... by which point you've outlevelled the relevant arcs. Or at least the 41-45 part.
  10. [ QUOTE ]
    This just ignores reality. Positron stated that the choice is TRULY permanent

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    Yes, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that we don't know what it is we'd be permanently committing TO yet. A pool of four powers? Six? Eight? Preset, in a given order, or fluid? Like the hero ancillary powers, or not?

    I've shifted my position a bit now, anyway. I'm pretty much convinced it's all about removing the incentive to PL.
  11. [ QUOTE ]
    Preventative, you mean.

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    Oh no. You're not forced to do the patron content. This won't prevent anyone from PLing to 50. It'll just remove any incentive to do so. They finally came up with something that doing the content can offer, but PLing can't (other than the story, of course). The reward from doing the storyarcs won't just be XP any more, it'll be patron powers.

    I'm sure people will still PL through the odd level here and there, but zooming straight to 50 will be seen as idiotic.
  12. [ QUOTE ]
    I think the fact that we're tied to them at all is reason enough to debate the systems merits.

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    Sure, but we're already tied to other things in the game, such as our primary, secondary, origin and so forth. I think a lot of the upset here is because a primary and secondary together have plenty of powers in, so if they nerf A you can respec into B or C, whereas a 'pool' has traditionally contained four.

    Anyway, I'm trying to look at the broader picture now. They can't be respecced out of because they're tied to the content. They're tied to the content because this will absolutely slaughter any Portal Corp courtyard, Wolf-farming, Dreck-herding equivalent in CoV. If people PL to 50, they will bypass the story arcs that give them their patron powers. Four patrons, with no way to respec out of one and into the other, means four seperate end games that you can't play on the same character - there's the 'can't see everything on one toon' design principle that we've seen before.

    I'm 99% convinced that that's what all this is really about. It's been designed this way as a PLing disincentive.
  13. [ QUOTE ]
    You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.

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    Okay, so if we decide not to do Patron content at level 41 (or whatever it is) then have we missed the boat for good?

    Thinking about this: if you can level up to (say) 45 and take ordinary powers, then do patron stuff and get the last powers from the patron pool, then there's a little more mix and match going on than we expected. However, if you have to decide at the start of the 40-50 road, then once you ding 42, you're stuck.

    ... oh for heaven's sake, I'm losing my touch. I only just twigged. This is an ANTI PL design. If you have to do the patron content to get the juicy powers, then who the heck is going to want to sit on a PL team for PHAT EXPEES any more?
  14. [ QUOTE ]
    Well, except for the "wait and see - it'll be all right" crowd.

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    People are saying 'It'll be all right'? I must have missed that.

    Look, the justification for reserving judgement until we know more is that this is not just an epic power pool you can't get rid of. It's something new. They've obviously designed it to be a permanent choice on purpose. If that permanency is an integral part of how these things were designed, then we can't assess how good or bad it is until we see it in context along with the rest of the design. Right now, the permanency looks arbitrary, or like an oversight (not that I buy that particular explanation). If the design doesn't provide a clear and understandable motive for making the choices permanent, then I'm right over there with the 'this may not have been the best of ideas' crowd.
  15. [ QUOTE ]
    We all know that 95% of what hits Test, hits Live. I'm not advocating going into full, obnoxious squeaky-wheel mode is appropriate right now, but this 'Be quiet/Wait and see" advice is silly.

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    But we don't know what is going to hit Test, that's the point.

    I'm not giving anyone advice and I'm certainly not telling anyone to shut up. I just don't think a 'dropped the ball' verdict is justified until we know exactly what we're being tied to here. The proof of the pudding is not in the anticipation.

    I agree that it's a very risky piece of design, and their providing hard data prior to the choice suggests that they are aware of how horribly wrong it could go.
  16. [ QUOTE ]
    No matter how many powers are in the set, you're still locked in - that's the point. If you choose Scorpion then down the line you want to switch over to Ghost Widow you can't.

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    Much like how you can't switch from fire control to ice control down the line. Gotcha.

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    Based on the way this game operates, with changes to powers coming extremely often

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    Individual powers. We still don't know if we'll be able to respec out of and into individual powers within pools. We don't know how many powers are in each pool, either, or how they integrate with advancement in level, or anything like that.

    I can see what you're worried about. You don't want to commit to something in case it gets changed later on and you can't undo your choice.
  17. [ QUOTE ]
    It's not a freak out about a tiny bit of information. We can't change an epic pool - that's pretty major no matter how you slice it.

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    We can't change a primary or a secondary, either. It looks like you're assuming these Patron Power Pools will be comparable to the CoH epic pools, i.e. a narrow and very limited set of choices. We don't know that. So far, we know next to nothing about them.

    You're complaining about being locked into something that you don't even know what it is. Isn't that a little premature?
  18. [ QUOTE ]
    Of course you don't - not really surprised.

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    I said I'm reserving judgement, not that the Devs can have my babies.
  19. [ QUOTE ]
    Being locked into a pool is just like being locked in to powers in this case.

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    No it isn't. We don't yet know how many options the pools will give.

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    Make any excuse you want, but they messed up on this one - that's not up for argument as far as I'm concerned.

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    Sorry, I don't agree.
  20. [ QUOTE ]
    Hard numbers or not, we're permanently locked into power choices - that's not exceptable.

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    I don't think so. We're permanently locked into POOL choices, not power choices. It's like being unable to change your primary and secondary, but able to change the powers within them. Of course, I could be wrong here.
  21. [ QUOTE ]
    Honestly Posi, it doesn't matter the reason - you guys dropped the ball on this one, plain and simple.

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    I'm going to reserve judgement until I see how it plays. Giving the hard numbers sounds like a very good move.
  22. [ QUOTE ]
    Last time I checked, bad design decisions were still usually made in error.

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    More clumsy conflation. There's a difference between making an error of judgement and an error in arithmetic, or in basic perception of what's on the screen in front of you.

    I expect the Devs to make errors of judgement. That's understandable, and they learn from it. I don't expect them to fail to notice how much something actually costs, and claim that it costs a different sum. That's a level of stupidity that they simply have not manifested to date.

    You can provide plenty of evidence of errors of judgement. So can I. But I don't think you can provide evidence of the kind of basic failure of perception that would be needed to mis-state the cost of their own base features. If they set them too high on purpose, that could well be an error of judgement; but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the accidental overlooking of factors which the players would soon notice in actual play.
  23. [ QUOTE ]
    An Inspiration and Enhancement Storage stations will cost a minimum of 765K to deploy. More likely in the 780K to 855K area to get all of them. Can we AT LEAST agree on that please?

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    We've never been in disagreement on that point. However, Inspiration and Enhancement Storage weren't the intended boost for small SGs. Empowerment Stations are.
  24. [ QUOTE ]
    Last time I checked, errors were still usually made by mistake, yes.

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    You're failing to grasp the difference between a bad design desision and an outright error.

    Making winter lords spawn too often: bad design decision.
    Not noticing that you need workbenches, power stations and databases to build Empowerment stations (if one did actually need these): outright error.

    The winter lords were not caused to spawn too often by mistake. People weren't given the ability to slot 5 dam, 1 acc by mistake. People aren't unable to get Isolator by mistake. These were all intended, and have since proven to be unwise.
  25. [ QUOTE ]
    Yes. NOW you've got it! Priot to Positron's post (THANK YOU POSITRON!) it was perfectly feasible to think that the devs might set the cost of these items too high.

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    You simply aren't addressing the 'by mistake' part, are you?

    I already told you: nobody's debating the idea that the prices might have been set higher than people would like by deliberate design. What I DO object to is the idea that the prices might have turned out too high for small SGs to afford because the Devs accidentally made them dependent on huge rooms, or accidentally forgot to take the cost of power and control into account, or anything like that. None of your examples included errors of that kind.