LSK

Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane

And you don't see anything wrong with that. If you did, you won't admit to it.

This. This is the heart of the problem. Brutes and Scrappers have a good thing going. They're extremely popular, extremely powerful ATs. Brutes at the caps are 100% numerically superior to Tankers at the caps and there's no denying it. You don't even try to.

Brutes and Scrappers have got loads of enthusiasts backing them, and those people know how broken good they are. And they will say anything to keep that status quo and keep their little min-maxed toys on top. And the devs are reluctant to change the status quo because keeping people quiet is easier than fixing things. That is the ugly, ugly elephant in the room.

The same people who argue that Scrappers and Brutes and how they relate to Tankers are fine are the same ones bragging about soloing TFs and killing pylons in under four minutes. Their bias is blatant and it disgusts me. I've put as much if not more time and work into my Tankers as they put into their Brute/Scrapper, but the difference is, Tankers hit a wall with the damage cap, a wall those people dance all over with their brokenly tough 'damage dealers'.

My Tankers deserve to be as awesome offensively as anyone's unkillable Incarnate Brute or Scrapper and I damn well intend to rock the boat and make noise until the devs allow him and all Tankers the same freedom and room to grow. And if you don't like it, tough.


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Originally Posted by Finduilas

Complete speculation on your part from start to finish. Unfun to whom? I still play my tankers and have fun with them, and many other players do too.

I wish you and Deus would get together and decide whether the devs are trying to shaft Tanks (as usual) or Brutes (as usual). And if necessary, I'm sure we can find many other forum goers willing to explain that (insert AT here) are the ones REALLY getting the shaft by the devs.

Originally Posted by Maribelle

Quick key for saying something in team chat
/bind [key you want to use] "show chat$$beginchat /team,"

Quick key for saying something to league chat
/bind [key you want to use] "show chat$$beginchat /league,"

Originally Posted by Gobbledygook

Yes, you can. My SS/SR brute never had any issues with it, except for the end cost.

Originally Posted by zeldo

I'm just wondering if I can get a SR's defense high enough (without Elude) that the Rage crash won't get him killed.

Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane

Didn't happen when CoV launched? Brutes were THE most popular AT red side. Comparatively, Tankers were one of the least popular blue ATs.

Now, post-side switching, I see way more Brutes than Tankers, especially in trials. The last trial I was on had six Brutes, four Scrappers and one Tanker. It was dubbed Team Melee.

Will there ever be a point where there's ZERO Tankers? Unlikely. But that's not the argument.


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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane

The game doesn't force this enough. Scrappers and Brutes have way more survivability than they need and are over protected while on a team due to buffs and what not. Solo or on teams, they experience little downside for having less survivability than a Tanker, and as long as Tankers are forced to trade significant damage for increased survivability they don't need, I say that's a problem.

People have said in the past all that means is that we need harder content. This line of thinking is bogus. We got "harder content" and all it did was make the double standard more prominent. Tin Mage and Apex are harder. The I-trials are harder.

But...
Battle Maiden's sword bombs will surely kill a Tanker as quick as a Scrapper or Brute. Angry Boobcat will easily tear up all three, but all three can be buffed and healed to stand up to her. Tankers still deal mediocre damage in both situations.

The Keyes pulse doesn't hit Tankers for significantly less, and most of the other special mechanics on this trial circumvent the superior survivability numbers Tankers get, essentially treating all the melee ATs equally, but Tankers still deal the least damage the whole time despite this.

The bottom line: Brute and Scrapper survivability is way up in all content thanks to the Incarnate system and I don't see a suitable reciprocated increase in Tanker damage, thanks to among other factors, a crappy damage cap. The "harder content" doesn't favor Tanker survivability over any other melee AT's survivability very much at all; if it's gonna kill a Scrapper or Brute, it'll kill a Tanker, and it wont kill any of the three when they're buried in team buffs. Yet the whole time, Tankers still have to suffer significantly inferior standing damage and caps to pay for more out-of-the-box survivability that seems less and less relevant when everyone's got Barrier Destiny these days.



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Originally Posted by BashfulBanshee

I'm not touchy. Just a little over sensitive at times.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Keep in mind that sometimes it's easier and cheaper to use merits for the pricey ones. I think the Steadfast +Def and Reactive Armor Resistance IOs are only one Hero Merit, so that's an option to consider.

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

If the Brute taunts everything away and dies...nothing happens.

Because there is another aggro capable toon standing there to soak it up.



Another thing is, the Brute doesn't automatically die.

I know people like to believe this on the tanker forums, but Brutes are not squishes that require the helpful babysitting of a tanker.

Originally Posted by lionsbane_EU

Thank you for the time you've taken so far in putting this build together.

Actually what has frustrated me is that, looking at your build, I find I was only marginally weaker than you with res and health end while my reses were IO based. It's only now, that I put in the sets, that i've weakened substantially.
However, that said, defence was and still is, way lower than yours on almost every point.

Can you put an estimate on how much your proposed build wil cost? I just burned a large chunk of my inf on the build that just went south....

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

And it was posted like this on the forums?

I see nothing in game that equates these ATs on a 1 to 1 basis when you start a character.



My personal view is that the ATs are more like this.

Brute = Scrapper/Tanker Hybrid (Damage/Aggro)
MM = Pet Heavy Controller/Tanker Hybrid
Dom = Controller/Blaster Hybrid
Corr = Offense focused Defender
Stalker = Scrapper / Blaster Hybrid

Out of the ATs, the Corr is the least Hybrid like and most like any blueside counterpart.

Originally Posted by Auroxis

And what makes you so sure this was their plan?

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze

If a Tanker can't pull aggro away from my Brutes or Scrappers, then he/she shouldn't be tanking

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

I have no issue with you telling me that your MM does this, can do this or that teams prefer this.

I have not often experienced that personally, but my feeling is that if you as the player can pull that off - then more power to you. I see no reason to tell you that you shouldn't.

That also doesn't mean you are the defacto Tanker for redside.

Brutes aren't even the defacto Tanker for redside.



Regardless, Brutes hold aggro.

They do this by design.


Same MAG Threat in their attacks, same MAG Threat in their Taunt Auras, Taunt Auras in nearly (and soon to be all) every power-set they have.

They even get the same Taunt Power, as opposed to Confront.

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

If you have a taunt and a taunt aura you are designed to hold aggro for whatever reasons. Getting fury is a bonus.

I know you want to tell me that MMs were originally the "tankers" of CoV - but that obviously went nowhere.

Brutes have been holding aggro since their inception, redside teams have been calling on Brutes to hold aggro since their inception.

I see no reason why that has to suddenly change now.