Kurrent

Hadn't seen that thread at the time I made my post. Reading through it gives me more hope, but as it stands David's in charge of concept art. What actually happens in terms of what makes it into the game itself occurs after it leaves his hands. That's my main concern.

David's response to the feedback many of us have given on this subject has been to open a new thread for us to try and explain what we think would be an appropriate balance; this is a GREAT approach, and I really appreciate it.

In contrast, what we heard on Ustream yesterday was, "Since you don't like our idea of balance between male and female costume pieces in our latest set, we'll just scrap all future female costume pieces entirely. That'll take care of any perception of imbalance."

NOT the same approach. Not even close.

While the feedback on this subject poured in fast and furious both on the Beta threads and the threads here, people for the most part seemed to be polite but clearly impassioned. They're mostly impassioned because THEY LOVE THIS GAME, just like I do! I truly hope that both sides can keep their cool and not resort to knee-jerk reflexive responses to perceived slights. The players aren't going to get a better game without quality and effort on the part of the artists and developers, and the game isn't going to survive without the players.

Most of the feedback can be boiled down to three main points:

1) Instead of giving us a set with Gunslinger pieces for males and Saloon pieces for females, either give us just Gunslinger pieces for both, just Saloon pieces for both, or take some extra time and put in both sets for both genders. You really don't have to count pieces or meet some arbitrary percentage ratio for each individual piece. Really.

2) If there's not enough time in the current design and development process to listen to player feedback and make adjustments before a set or update goes live, then add more time to the development process. Almost all of us would rather wait another month or three and get a great product than have a weak or flawed product now, especially when people have been pointing out those flaws going back to beta. If that means the highly-touted "New Items Weekly" market feature has to be changed to a biweekly or even a monthly update for major sets or features, then so be it. We can be patient for high quality of products like we expect from this team, because you've shown you can deliver beautiful results when we all work together.

3) No one is calling for the abolition of female-only or male-only costume pieces. We're asking for more options, not less. This is not a crusade against sexy or prudish costume pieces, because we want both options for both genders. We want some pieces to be gender exclusive if it allows for more unique looks and styles, we want to be able to choose how our characters express their style and preferences, and we want the themes for new costume sets to carry across both sides. If you're in doubt, ask us. We have no problem being vocal. But when you ask us, please show us enough respect to actually hear what we're trying to say.

K

Well, this is what I was afraid of. Total over-reaction in response to player feedback instead of actually LISTENING to the comments and feedback. I guess they're trying to stuff someone's idea of "equality" down our throats by, ironically, doing away with all the female costume pieces and making us only use the male costume piece design from now on. Way to shoot for equality and fairness.

I try very hard to be realistic, practical and fair. In both of my posts on this subject in the oddly named "Gender Equality" thread I tried to avoid any hyperbole and express some appreciation for the costume pieces we did get while trying to explain what exactly was off-target in the Gunslinger set costume pieces. But it seems like those posts and 99% of the other player feedback has been totally ignored in favor of what amounts to punitive action directed at eliminating all future female costume pieces entirely. If this is truly the direction future costume set offerings are going to take, then don't expect me to buy any more. Don't expect many of your other PAYING CUSTOMERS to accept that attitude, either.

K

Yes. To both parts of this.

We're not wanting a (somewhat frustrated) reaction of, "Well, if you don't think we're being fair with the female costume pieces, we'll just make ALL the costume pieces the same. Then they'll be equal, won't they?!"

No. That's not what anyone in this thread is asking for, and I'm honestly a bit surprised that's the vibe that we seem to be getting in response to the very spirited but polite discussion we've got going here.

The player frustration stems mostly from the fact that the very name of the Gunslinger set evokes some very specific and iconic imagery, but the set only delivers that same imagery for male and huge characters. That's the problem at its most basic. There are many of us who actually LIKE the female costume pieces. They're very nicely done, although I'm not a fan of all the heavy pre-tinting either. I've already put some on one of my existing characters. But "gunslinger" makes me think of leather jackets, rifles, boots with spurs, chaps, holsters and an aura with dust specks floating around; I get all these to use with my male and huge characters (well, except the aura), while my female characters only get a version of the boots.

No one is asking for all future costume sets and pieces to be identical for men and women. That's very important. I don't think any of us are asking for the "sexy" or "with skin" costume pieces to go away or get nerfed. I personally love having those pieces available, and it's important to have those options for male and female characters; heck, the very fact that those options EXIST for both gender characters it what makes it equal and appropriate. Some pieces only make sense for men (beards and facial hair come to mind first), where some pieces only make sense for women (high heels and bras are the first things that pop into my mind)... and that's okay. Getting rid of all the gender-specific pieces would be a HUGE overreaction on the part of the Paragon team, and I daresay it'd stir up even more negativity and frustration. Please don't reflexively jump in that direction.

Where the 'slinger pack went wrong is that we got gunslinger pieces for men and showgirl/saloon girl pieces for women. If we'd have gotten some jackets, pants, and chaps for women and some "tenderfoot" or saloon pieces for men, all would have been amazingly right with the set, whether it had been named Gunslinger, Wild West or Little House on the Prairie.

K

Trading one extreme of gender-specific costume pieces being utilitarian for men and sex kitten for women for an opposite extreme of "well, we'll just make all the new costume pieces look identical" leaves me listening for the sure-to-follow, "...that'll show those pesky kids!"

No one here is arguing that the male and female genders are identical. Different body shapes, different body part proportions, different cut and fit for the same clothing type. Anyone who's ever tried on clothes made for the other gender can vouch for this. We're not arguing for the total elimination of female-only or male-only costume pieces; we're asking to simply have more choices and more options.

I thought that part of the intent behind CoH Freedom was to allow players who were willing to pay extra for more goodies (including costume pieces) to do exactly that, letting the new cash influx in excess of the monthly subscription fee pay for more artists and more resources to create more amazing content. Would I have liked to see an outfit for female characters more like Sharon Stone's character from "The Quick and the Dead"? Yeah, I would. But I kind of like Megan Fox's look in "Jonah Hex", too.

I'm one of the many female players who often will dress my characters in rather revealing costumes. I like having the chance to dress that way both in game and in real life. But I don't want to ONLY dress that way. Almost all of my characters have conservative ensembles and practical outfits in addition to their more risque outfits; therein lies the beauty of multiple costume slots. Again, it's about choice, whether it's for male characters or female characters. If I don't like the way a pair of jeans fits me in real life, I can always walk over to the men's section and try on a pair of men's jeans. I might not like the result, but then again I might (and I have before, more than once). A label that says "men's" or "women's" is no more binding than a boy named Francis or Lacey or a girl named Joseph or Michael. I'm not going to pigeonhole myself just because a store directory or a clothing designer wants me to, and we don't want the designers and developers to fall prey to the same thinking. It's not all about equality, it's about more options for both male and female characters. (And I suppose huge characters too, I just don't ever play them.)

Was I disappointed that I'm not going to get a real gunslinger jacket and chaps for my girl gunfighters? Yes. Would I be willing to trade in the saloon girl costume pieces for it? Well... I don't think so. Not just yet. A very important point that's not being mentioned is that several artists, designers, and programmers put a great of time, effort, and care into making these costume pieces we did get, and I think it's important that we acknowledge that. Yes, we'd love more choices and we'd love to have this and that, but the pieces we got are pretty nice. I'll certainly be able to use them for both existing and future characters, and I expect nearly everyone else can too. I appreciate all the hard work and hours spent on creating each of the costume pieces we did get, just like I appreciate the fact that devs and designers listen to our feedback and make adjustments in response to that feedback. Thank you.

Quite frequently our feedback in the beta threads does indeed effect real change, like with the planned costs to unlock the new Incarnate powers. When it became apparent that a huge majority of the player base was strongly opposed to those proposed costs, change was made. I believe that if adding a female gunslinger jacket and chaps to this set at the last second had truly been possible, it would have been done after the feedback on the Beta threads. It just couldn't be done that quickly.

To seize upon the poignant phrase, "looking forward," I think that it would be great to offer versions of new costume pieces for both male and female characters, but they really don't have to be identical. We don't expect them to be identical. But if a set gives us a really cool jacket or look for men, please try to give us the same for women and vice versa. A loincloth or new briefs could provide a nice male equivalent for an awesome new skirt introduced for the female characters. That way we don't lose the gender-specific pieces entirely, because it's nice to have them as options too!

Maybe it would be helpful to float around proposals and solicit player feedback on costume pieces earlier in the process, such as in the concept art stage, so if there happens to be a groundswell of player sentiment there could be time to learn from and build upon that input. It might eliminate some, not all, of the pleasant surprise experienced upon seeing the new goodies for the first time, but preemptively defusing some of the OMGRAAAAGGGGEEEEE!!!1!!! might be worth it.

I'll buy this Gunslinger set, even if it's not exactly what I was hoping. It's still a nice set. And it's just as nice to have the option to either buy it or not buy it, too. Go Freedom.

K

I have to agree. Only one of my characters is a pancake. That I can think of.

Granted, I do have one former adult film star, one exotic dancer, one demonic temptress, one former demonic temptress, one cult leader who isn't above using sex (and psychic powers) to control her followers, a former teen pop star, two cheerleaders and a Lingerie Football League player. All of them have at least been called pancake at some point.

K

Yeah, that's how I'm reading this "Salute to Statesman" too... a wake.

However, the pieces themselves sound quite nice, and I like the look of the helms. We'll see what the chest detail turns out to be, and I can always find use for a ccemote and a new aura.

That is music to my ears. Looking forward to seeing what this might be!

I was talking about the Old Maria arc. Didn't realize that the ending of the arc had changed with GR. So now we get an extra dose of arrogance to go with our reward merits at the end, I suppose.

Beyond awesome. +1.

Actually, it was clearly stated as a power, not a gadget. Prometheus himself granted it to Manticore in the comics, and another of the Phalanx (I think it was Synapse) said, "Looks like you've got your very first superpower now!"

I can totally get behind this sentiment, and several other posters have rightly brought it up as well. Really, the Paragon character who's just super-powerful and good at everything really is a frustrating character on many levels. Such a character is just entirely unrelatable. And Statesman has definitely been depicted as arrogant and authoritarian, that's very well established too. I think that makes rescuing him at the end of Maria's arc that much more enjoyable, knowing your character succeeded where he and his ego failed.

Actually, Manticore does have a power. Teleport Arrow. It hurts when you get hit with it, either in RV or in Recluse's strike force. I'm sure someone out there has a screenie of it. It's too late for my mind to work tonight, so I'm not going to log back on and grab one, but if no one posts one before tomorrow evening, I'll try to remember to post a pic of its info. Link to a pic of the CCG version of it below.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/COHCCG/Teleport_Arrow


K

Asymmetry, yay! Well, I have to try not to get my hopes up, because wishing and reality often don't overlap much. I've hoped for an asymmetry slider for quite some time, so we could move chest details and costume patterns off-center one way or another. I think that would be an excellent tweak, but I have no idea how hard it would be to implement. I'll stay turned for the details when the Player Summit summary is posted.

Love the gallery of concept art. And I'm curious to see what this mysterious idea of yours that "graduated to the big leagues" will turn out to be. David, having you on staff has really been a huge boost not just to Paragon Studios but to the players as well. Stick around a very, very long time!

K

Particularly with a live server publish popping up today...

Seconded. I love the intention of the Dev team to give us new content every week, but we all need to understand that this is a self-imposed, very arbitrary deadline. I'd be perfectly happy with new market goodies every two weeks, especially if the team is having to come up with offerings like the somewhat underwhelming Undead Survival Kit just to have something for a weekly update/sale. Honestly, all of us appreciate the effort to get new material out there, and waiting two weeks between new goodies in the Market is still much better than waiting months between issue updates for any new items. Sales could certainly still change weekly, too.