Kruunch

Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU

Where in tanking is damage a penalty? Where in tanking is movement a penalty? (apart from a few nukes that are scary). Why would a WP need more recharge, if their only power that has recharge, is unaffected by it?

The fact remains, end game =! IO build. If we talk about 2-3billion builds, these cant be achieved by just doing some random end-game content, i dont consider farming for inf as part of end-game.

Granite will remain the lead in survivability, only untill the very last end when you get to the big-bang-for-the-bucks IO's WP is taking over (but in that content, other primairies can do the same). Afaik WP cant hit cap SL resist by plain its own powers, you are basicly forced to get tough/weave, i say penalty, since the IO SL bonusses are that small, you cant get it from there.

Originally Posted by MrLiberty

Just my opinion but :

End game WP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> End game Stone tank.

WP can achieve insane survivability with capped HP, huge amounts of regen, soft capped defenses, etc. The OP mentioned not being worried about herding up Tempest Quay... well a properly built WP can do it just as well as a well built stone tank. The only thing you have to worry about is toxic damage (in both cases) as there is no toxic defense. Powerforge recently tossed up a video of his WP/WM tank rounding up 10 or so Random AV's (All kinds of different damage Tyrant, Black Swan, BaB's, Citadel, Infernal etc) and basically AFK'ing in the middle of them. So as far as being "Tough enough" a well built WP will more than handle anything the game has to offer.

Stone can spend most of its efforts trying to overcome massive penalties to damage, recharge and movement where WP can achieve that same "Immortality" that stone has as well as push ahead in Damage, Recharge and movement.

The *biggest* weakness of WP is as already mentioned, the taunt aura. But between taunt and gauntlet you can perform just fine.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

[QR]

I'm already on record advocating DPE normalization between archetypes (which I think is an intrinsicly more fair approach overall), but I've often wondered if the "wait for endurance" mechanic shouldn't have been softened by making Brawl cost little or zero endurance. Brawl has a relatively low DPA; at low levels its an interesting power but at higher levels (prior to the advent of IOs) it was largely an orphaned power (although some Tankers and Brutes still used/use it for aggro/fury reasons).

Perhaps the best way to resolve the psychological issue of waiting within the balance limits of the game is to simply remove the endurance costs from Brawl and the Origin ranged power, and perhaps boost the origin power's damage slightly. That would ensure low level players would always have an attack available (within the limits of the recharge of the two powers, which is relatively short), even if they ran out of endurance (and at least one of them ranged). If the DPA of the two attacks is sufficiently low relative to primary/secondary/pool attacks, they then eventually become mostly irrelevant at higher levels when they aren't capable of significantly contributing to the average DPA of normal attack chains.

Interlacing them with primary/secondary attacks would generate continuous attack streams that weren't exclusively focused on Brawl/Origin, but burned much less endurance, so this doesn't preclude using the "real" attack powers altogether. The main objection, that brawl and the origin power are either boring or inconsistent with the rest of the attacks, is an issue that I16 could theoretically address.


(More radically, I used to think that perhaps the best way to resolve this was to radically reduce the endurance costs and decrease the DPA of most archetype's first two attacks, with appropriate changes in powersets to counterbalance. However, that would be problematic today as there are other balance issue intertwined with tier 1/2 attacks such as defiance.)

Originally Posted by DSorrow

And even just giving a quick glance on the scrapper forums, it seems that Defense based sets are the powerset of choice when it comes to doing extreme stuff. *Shrug*

Originally Posted by Vox_Populi

I posted my idea for improving early Enhancements in the Suggestions forum. Naturally, the responses there are the opposite as here- that the early levels aren't that bad.

Originally Posted by Amberyl

I think what bothers me is that defense has really variable performance. Sometimes you don't get hit and it's all fine and dandy, and sometimes the RNG just has it out for you and you get owned. Since practically any toon can softcap S/L these days, it feels insufficient to be dependent upon defense alone, particularly when dying tends to lead to a team wipe. I like my performance to be at least partially independent of whether or not my team sucks or not, and with sucking being more common than not sucking these days, I'm thinking that perhaps ice is not going to be my style unless I'm playing exclusively with my SG.

Originally Posted by DSorrow

No. As I said, if you even get the passive accolades (which aren't hard at all to get, I might add) you'll have around 2200 HP. Add to that Chilling Embrace's -DMG and it will require some really bad luck to get downed by an alpha. So bad, in fact, that it has never happened to me.

Originally Posted by DSorrow

I don't actually think that at all. My ice tank without the fighting pool is, thank you very much, easily able to be the main tank on an ITF or basically anything without high ToHit bonuses. I have only ever died once against romans on my ice tank and that was before level 50, me being SKed.

I have also tanked lvl 54 boss only spawns in MA and survived. A properly built ice tank is tough as nails unless the enemies you're fighting pack huge amounts of +ToHit. And even that can be countered with purple inspirations.

Defense DeBuffs aren't a nemesis of ice armour either. Pop an inspiration if your defense starts to drop and use EA when available. I could understand people saying using insps is wrong on a tank if you had to use them against anything and everything, but when it's only the case against Def DeBuff I don't see why it shouldn't be done. It's like saying you can't use a green insp if your HP goes low.

Ice armour also has two good panic buttons to help keep you alive: Hoarfrost and Hibernate. Like most sets with heals some level of twitch reflexes is needed in order to benefit from them. If you know how to play and slot your ice tank you should be very self sufficient, you have the tools to top up your endurance and HP. I still prefer my ice tank over my shielder even though the shield tank has assorted resistances (50% S/L, 20'ish to N/E/F/C) and that is because of the survival tools ice armour has. If a shield tank is going down it's going down and nothing from the shield powerset can help it. This is very often not the case with ice armour.

EDIT: Note that both of the tankers are softcapped: ice against S/L/E/N and shielder against melee/ranged/aoe.

Originally Posted by Sarrate

(I am a little curious why everyone keeps bringing up AE boss farms when AE wasn't mentioned at all in the OP. I have a hard time believing that's all any PUG does... but I avoid PUGs, so I don't know.)

Originally Posted by _Deth_

On the other hand, my WP tank, man, I didn't realize how friggin tough they were. Before respec, walked into level 53 mob and got faceplanted instantly. After respec, in a solid group with another tank, I was running 3 groups ahead and herding em into the group while the other tank and trollers kept em locked down. We were half way up the map on the way back to the front and everything was dead. I hate to say it, but I think I actually like WP more than DA. Plan on making another one with a different secondary, as I hate, and I mean HATE, EM now.

Originally Posted by Alabaster12

Care to qualify that? Seems a bit... contradictory in that your saying that its for people who don't know how to tank but then also if someone doesn't have advanced knowledge that they are a pain to deal with. That sounds like just about every single AT combo in the game. My experience is in fact exactly the opposite. A good stone tank makes up for teammates who don't know how to play their AT, but it wasn't at all harder per say than any of the other tanks that I've tried.

Originally Posted by electric_emu

So I've read some very mixed views on comparing the two defensive sets. Some have said Stone is clearly better as you can softcap defense and cap S/L resistance as well as getting your other resistances mighty close. Your only weakness is Psionics. Others have said that Granite is far too crippling to be considered better than WP. Willpower, after all, gives more endurance recovery, an auto-boost to max HP and very well-rounded defenses (including the achilles' heel of Stone, Psionics).

So what I'm asking is which set is better, and why? I don't expect to get a definite answer, as opinions will vary, but I want to know what people think.

To clarify, I'm talking end-game, all-round effectiveness. So don't go saying "WP is better off in the beginning" or something similar. I want Granite's obvious weaknesses accounted for. Also, I'm not seeking "which is better in extreme situations" answers. Because when it comes down to tanking a horde of monsters in Tempest Quay, Granite clearly gets the nod.

Originally Posted by Amberyl

I've got an ice/fire tanker sitting at level 38 at the moment, and he continues to be awfully squishy. This is an SO build, but even against pure smash/lethal, he's something of a wuss.

My armors are slotted with three defenses, I have Tough with three resists, I have Weave with three defenses, I have Hoarfrost slotted three recharge three heal so it's maximally effective, I have Combat Jumping. I also have Energy Absorption slotted up fully, and I recognize it also gives a defense boost.

Now, I recognize that at 50, with IOs, I'll be able to (rather expensively, unfortunately) softcap at least S/L defense. But at the moment, I'm sitting at about 35% defense and 23% resist, fully slotted, minus Energy Absorption's brief buff. (Versus a stone tank's Granite, which would grant 20% defense and 50% resist unslotted.)

What do I do to not suck? I still have twelve levels to go to 50.

Since I chose a /fire secondary, I'm lacking the mitigation that I'd get with, say, SS. I do have Hibernate, but turning into a little block of ice makes me feel like a wuss, and the regen rate is nailbiting. I am teaming with people who can heal and buff, but I tend to PUG a lot, which means that actually getting a heal or buff is unreliable at best. (Fortitude, say, can help a lot, since it fills up the defense gap to the softcap and beyond, but the other day I was on a team where between buffs and whatnot I was at 62% defense according to the combat attributes monitor, but still would sometimes take enough hits in a row from an alpha strike that I might as well have been one-shot.)

Standard tanking tactics, i.e., gather and cluster up, no herding.

Originally Posted by Kierthos

Would it be dumb to slot it in the Super Strength power "Rage"?

And does it have a chance to go off only when the power is activated, or at regular intervals during the Rage's duration?

Originally Posted by artic1337

Does the proc have a visual cue?

Originally Posted by artic1337

I slotted a [Gaussian's Synchronized Fire Control: Chance for Build Up] IO in Invincibility

Was that dumb?

I haven't noticed it going off, yet. Does the proc have a chance to go off periodically, or only when I first fire up the toggle?