Kruunch

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The bulk actually seems to be supportive of many of these changes.

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Actually, the boards represent an incredibly small minority of the playerbase. And within this tiny sampling there are players that simply choose not to comment in threads like this one because they not only disagree with what is being said, they also don’t feel like stepping into the middle of (what feels like) a super-strength bash session and state “I disagree!” because it’s pointless. Your minds are already made up and you’re not looking for opposition, just agreements.

For the record, I disagree with a lot of what’s being said here. I disagreed with the changes to knockback. I do fine with my tanker and while I believe there are many large problems with balance in this game, I don’t believe changing tankers powers left and right to work best within that imbalance is the correct way to go about things. I believe players perceive tankers as broken because they compare them against broken systems with problems that have nothing to do with tankers.

On an end note, I have to say I’m curious (and this is a rhetorical question). Why did you all bother to stick with super-strength when you obviously aren’t happy with it? Honestly, it doesn’t take very long to get a feel for this powerset. That is, super-strength leaves very little room for surprise as it is a very simple and straightforward set of powers. You can tell whether it’s a powerset you’re going to like or not long before you've invested a whole lot of time into it. Obviously many of you don’t like it. Personally, I wish those of you that don’t would find which powersets you do like and play those instead, rather than attempting to change existing ones into something they’re not (and into something I didn’t sign on for when I chose my powersets).

Obviously this isn’t going to happen, but do understand there are players who like super-strength just fine and don’t comment in threads like these for one reason or another. The vast majority of players don’t even visit these forums, probably because they’re busy just enjoying the game and their powers in the first place.

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Don't look now, but you're commenting.

And if you had actually read the first post of this thread you would have realized that these changes are being suggested as a balancing point within the AT, not the current game's lack of balance (which I did specifically address).

Why do I play a Tanker? Because I want to. Why do I lobby for changes? Because I would like to see this game improved. Don't begrudge me the opportunity to do that.

Finally: 94011 Registered User(s).

That's 50% of the current subscriber base. And a far greater majority of those people who play this game on a long term basis (the target demographic if you will).

Because Statesman wants to be disingenuous about the vocal opinions of those on these boards, doesn't mean he's actually telling the truth.

And yes, the bulk of long term players who do play SS Tankers have made their opinions known.

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Fair enough. If all these changes went in though, as requested, would Super Strength not be the ideal Tanker Secondary line? What would the shortcomings of Super Strength be?

It will naturally be the most popular and attractive due to its common appearance in Comic book heroes. It still is one of the most common secondaries even though it is commonly believed to be gimped. Once these changes go in, would the achetypical power-gamer not always point to super strength as the optimal Secondary?

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Didn't you read anything of the original post in this thread?

Basically here is the breakdown of the playability of each Tanker secondary from best to worst (someone correct me if they think I'm wrong):

Fire (AOE damage is king in this game)
Axe (best single target damage of any of the Tanker secondaries)
Energy (great high end attacks)
Stone (good all around attacks)
Mace (mediocre attacks)
Super Strength (sub-par attacks)
Ice (nth degrees below freezing)

After the current changes that are on test:

Fire (AOE is still king)
Axe (best single target DPS ... possibly out of any Scrapper line as well)
Stone (all round better DPS then energy now (possibly))
Energy (still great high end attacks)
Mace (mediocre attacks but 2 AOEs)
SS (mediocre attacks but better DPS)
Ice (slightly above freezing)

After our proposed changes:

Fire the III (AOE is still king ... long live the king)
Axe (still the best single target DPS in the Tanker lines)
Stone (still better overall DPS then Energy (I think))
Energy (still great high end attacks)
SS (good DPS and smoother to play)
Mace (mediocre attacks but 2 AOEs)
Ice (still in hypathermia land)

Another point some people like to keep bringing up is the secondary effects. So let's take a look at that:

Knockback (current) - Worse possible secondary effect for a Tanker.

Knockdown (Test) - Cures the DPS woes (no more chasing mobs). Otherwise essentially useless (no long enough duration for mobs to lose an attack except for a couple of really high knockup powers.

Disorient - Great secondary effect if pathing is fixed. Currently broken (from the Tanker's perspective)

Slow - Eh. Ok secondary effect but totally meaningless in the 30+ game.

Sleep - Useless (since one of Ice's other powers breaks it)

Hold - Ultra short duration for Ice (I believe) but otherwise would be the best secondary effect.

The overall thinking on Tanker secondary power effects (by those that use them day in and day out) is that they're either mildly amusing, or downright frustrating to gameplay. None seem to overly enhance game play the way the game currently plays out.

As I am trying to illustrate here, these proposed changes are to make the SS Tanker a more fun character to play (more fun by being less frustrating to develop). As you said yourself, it's also one of the most popular secondaries in the Tanker AT because of conceptualization. Doesn't make sense that the AT line everyone can identify with also happens to be one of your worst ones. I just want to make it middle of the pack.

And finally a look at the SS powers themselves:

Jab - The weakest mandatory power in any of the Tanker secondaries.

Punch - The weakest second power in any of the Tanker secondaries (on a par with most power pool melee attacks)

Haymaker - Bread n' butter power.

Taunt - Mixed thoughts on this but every Tanker secondary has em so we'll leave it alone (most don't take it though).

Handclap - Considered a useless power by and large except by the minority who loves to see mobs go flying.

Knockout Blow - Currently a relatively useless power. Being made into a useful Superior attack power. However the caveat here is that it will be the lowest damaging Superior attack power out of any of the secondaries with twice the recharge time to boot.

Rage - our damage and accuracy buff. The only one in all the Tanker secondaries to come with a major drawback (20 second disorient at the end of it).

Hurl - Currently considered undesireable due to mediocre damage when compared to the freakishly long animation time and Knockback (in Issue #2 this will now have DOUBLE knockback).

Footstomp - Our only AOE damaging attack and is only attainable at L38. Good power.

Does that sound like an AT line you would want to play? RP or min/maxxer or just regular gamer?

I think what everyone is getting at here is there is a large difference between a min/maxxer who wants to play in god mode and a normal gamer who wants to develop a good character.

If I were truly a god-mode aspiring min/maxxer I'd be playing my Fire/Dev Blaster or one of my Scrappers or go roll a Fire Controller or some other such nonsense.

I tried that route. I don't like it.

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"This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage."

Don't take this wrong, but anyone who wants to run this kind of character really has to sit back and be silent about what powers should and shouldn't be able to do. You are a min-maxer who wants to squeeze every ounce of effectiveness out of every power. That is not what the bulk of us want.

I don't want Super Strength adjusted so that you can make another perverse Tanker-Scrapper combo. Its the min-maxers who calculated the loss in DPS due to knockback that almost cost Super Strength its defining cool feature: Knockback.

You don't have a concept of what 'normalized' characters are doing with these power sets. You don't appreciate that Super Strength is perfectly fine in a normalized environment. You want it skewable.

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I'm not sure how I would take that right.

But in any event, min/max builds should never have *that* great a diversity within an MMOG. Since this game has no loot nor lateral content, people tend to concentrate on their character development (hence promoting the min/max nonsense).

The sad fact is that this game doesn't suffer concept characters well, because it IS a video game and you will always have min/maxxers, and min/maxxers blow through this game far too easily. If the disparity weren't so great, concept characters would be a ton more tolerable because they would still work well. Currently they do not.

Having said all that, you apparently didn't read my original post. Game balance to me is of far more concern then min/maxxing builds. That's what this whole thread is about.

QingTin: Get all the numbers you want here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...t=all&vc=1

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<Edited with update damage number from test server>
Hello all,

I have some concern in regard to the proposed changes. I understand that we, Super Strength tanker, are not really that good in damage dealing, but this is question that I have...

how many of you actually 6 slot your attacks?
With Jab, Punch, Haymaker and Footstomp 6 sloted. They do the following damage for me against even con (42 Tanker) (rough number from memory)

Without Rage
Jab - 73 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Punch - 107 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Haymaker - 175 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Footstomp - 151 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Knockout Blow - 154 (4 sloted 3 damage & 1 accuracy)

With Rage
Jab - 92.76 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Punch - 136.41 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Haymaker - 194 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Footstomp - 223.12 (6 sloted 5 damage & 1 accuracy)
Knockout Blow - 212 (4 sloted 3 damage & 1 accuracy)

I may not able to kill a group of enemy very fast, normally it take me a jab + punch + haymaker + rage to kill one, but with footstomp come into mix, it really speed up the killing process.

The knockout blow as currently doing about 20-30 damage above haymaker on the test center. It has gone from useless to pretty good for it's timing. The knockdown part make me want to haste and just footstomp all day long while surround by a group of mob.

Granted, I am a late stage tanker who is running Unstoppable and Rage permanently on. And all those proposed change, will just make me even better. I am just suggest caution on the side. If we get too much love, we may break balance as well.

Nerfetiti level 43 Magical Tanker Pinnacle.

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A similarly specced Energy/Stone/Axe/Fire Tanker does much more damage (Fire being AOE).

Mace has 2 AOEs which can be achieved much earlier then SS's single AOE currently (and they are complaining now that they aren't getting enough love) which increases their DPS dramatically in anything but one on one encounters.

Ice Tankers (all 5 of them) are the only ones with more gimpy damage then S (they will be my next crusade I think).

While the damage looks impressive on its own, compared to other ATs (all of them and almost every build combo therein) at the same level, it's really not.

This is from an L40 Tanker who also respecced on Test and is running perma-Unstop, perma-Hasten and perma-Rage.

I hear your pain man.

I put up a post in the Training Room forum highlighting this thread. The idea is to keep these issues in front of the dev's eyes. I've also outlined the differences between the SS line and other Tanker secondaries.

Go there and post your own thoughts (and keep that thread bumped and in front of the devs):

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#1292611

Hey Blurg ... yeah I agree on both of your points. I'd like to see those done.

Statesman has repeatedly acknowledged the lack of role that Tankers have post 30th, so I think that will be addressed. It just won't be a light switch type of fix. You'll see some of that happen in this patch and more and more down the road.

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Wait, wait, disorients STACK? I've never been stunned while using Unyeilding Stance.

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As Volante said but I'll confirm that you can be stunned out of US (rarely) and Rage's disorient allows you to be stunned out of US easily. Easily enough that doing Freaks with Rage is a death sentence. Same goes for other heavy stun mobs.

Liquid: Yeah I would love shorter animation times (and a cooler look) on Taunt. Dunno what the devs were thinking when they made that and then Provoke. /boggle

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Provoke and Taunt really are closer to mind control powers. Maybe the Controllers should have a power that Provokes mobs to another teammate (the Tanker).

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This would be cool on so many levels.

Of course no one would ever group with Controllers again but ... *evil smirk*

I get tons of tells in-game (stupid big mouth here) and some of them get down right hilarious with some of the questions and requests.

My favorite so far: "Hi I've been playing this game since 2002 but this is the first time I'm trying a Tanker. Since everyone knows SS is teh uber can you level me please?"

Well it's not as simple as that from a post release point of view. In beta and pre-beta you can tweak powers however you want and get down to what you desire (more or less). In the post release game, with the paying public (us) watching and critiqueing every move you do, you don't get that kind of luxury. And you desperately don't want to overbalance the AT so that SS becomes the new uber FOTM AT (forcing a nerf of the AT later).

I'll give you a good example and it starts right here with this thread. Let's say the developers took everyone's suggestions with respect to how they wanted damage pumped up across the line. This is what the new SS line would look like:

Jab - Moderate Damage (lowside)
Punch - Heavy Damage
Haymaker - Superior Damage
Handclap - Minor damage AOE
Knockout Blow - Extreme Damage
Hurl - Extreme Damage
Footstomp - Heavy Damage AOE
Rage - 80% damage buff

You know what this build would produce? A pre-nerf Fire Tanker. The only difference would be that with this build I wouldn't have to wait around for the mobs to die in Burn patches. I'd just run in with Rage on, Footstomp .. Hanclap, run to the next pack. Rinse and repeat.

Basically I'd be recreating a really short ranged Blaster. One that has the bonus of being virtually unkillable.

So this is why the developers won't rush out changes, even if they see them as the most common sense things to do. And I sincerely doubt that the developers have a person playing an SS Tanker, 2-4 hours a day, everyday. You really need that kind of exposure to see clearly what the problems are from day to day, mob to mob, zone to zone, level to level and so on.

Very true, not every Tanker secondary has an AOE non-damaging Provoke replacement candidate in that sense.

I should have said that every Tanker line has either that or just a damaging AOE (and all Tanker secondaries already have a built in taunt to their attacks).

I'd much rather have a Superior damage AOE to replace my Provoke. Since I don't, I'm proposing a compromise. Keep the damage, give me the utility (I'd gladly do the reverse however if offered).

And no, I don't agree that all Tankers need to be the same in ability to tank or manage agro. I'd be peeved if Fire Tankers could take as much damage as Inv Tankers. However I have no problem with a smart Fire Tanker being able to manage agro a lot better then I can (they just have the powers for it).

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Stateswoman, I understand and agree to an extent.

Kruunch had stated however, when this thing started rolling, that the Provoke changes were intended to be a change across all the secondaries. This came after the questions from numerous tankers of other secondaries wondering where they would be left in the wake of the SS changes.

Increasing damage or recycles or even effects of the SS powers is, by and large, something that may not, or doesn't necessarily *have to* impact the other secondaries except as a way to balance their relative effectiveness within the AT.

Basically making Provoke, one of the absolute cornerstones of the entire AT, a power that only the other secondaries have to take, while SS takes a superior version of provoke + knockdown (+ KB capability perhaps and even suggestions of damage), seems to me to be needlessly divisive.

In my opinion, the SS players would do well to get as many tankers under their tent as possible. Devs are probably less likely to make changes that will cause envy within an AT.

I know SS is hurting, and hurting bad, but I think it would be wise to keep the focus narrow and zero in on must-haves. Kruunch has been really good about not over-reaching so far and I thought I would just offer a bit of feedback along these lines.

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Hey Bonesnap, sorry for the confusion. The Handclap changes were listed as a preference. The Provoke changes were thrown in there (across all Tanker secondaries) should the Handclap changes not be desireable the devs (as an alternative suggestion basically). My thinking is was that if they made the Handclap changes, they would go across the rest of the Tanker secondaries and make similar changes (as the rest of the Tanker secondaries have a non-damaging AOE I believe). It should have really been an either or under the same suggestion. Hopefully they don't get tripped up when reading that.

Flip: Rage (and Build-Up and Aim and most damage buffs) are based on base damage and not enhanced damage. That's by design (or at least I would fervantly hope it is).

Yep yep ... but they are currently coded at less functionality then a single SO of the same level (individually). They are also high end rewards and not sold in stores and I doubt Geko wants to code in a special enhancement type either as store buyable or as part of the built in status of a few given powers.

Wouldn't mind if he did though

That would be ideal but wouldn't be a quick change from a coding standpoint.

We were trying to keep things in line for what could possibly be done in Issue #2 (currently on Test).

If you read the suggestion for Handclap you will notice it says "decrease recharge time to 12s". With 6 slots in recharge timers that puts it down to 4 second recharge. Or 3 slots recharge and Hasten.

Way ahead of yas.

Yep that was the idea with Handclap to begin with. Make it the adhoc Provoke of the SS line and keep Taunt as the added agro management tool. No need for Provoke unless you *really* wanted overkill.

The last suggestion is if the Handclap changes a bit higher up can't/won't be made.

Provoking 40 mobs to your Blasters and Super Jumping away screaming something about "AOE THAT YOU SOBS!!!!!" is tons of fun.

/boggle

Oh yeah I agree with you on a thematic front. That's why those Handclap changes are above the Provoke ones.

I'd rather manage agro through my actions then a "god-in-the-machine" game mechanic personally.

It does leave you drained both on Health (10%) and Endurance (0%).

If you overlap Unstoppable however, the power itself has an Endurance Regen component (a pretty good one too). So the net effect is that the End drain is very temporary.

It's a legitimate question.

I thought of the compounding End drains for Inv/SS builds. My thinking though is that Unstoppable by itself will counter it well and Unstoppable and Stamina put together tend to overcome it for the most part.

There is a few seconds of real down time with Unstoppable currently and that's about it. So I don't think the compounded End drains would be problematic (but that is why I proposed a 75% end drain ... I don't think any Tanker power should have a side effect that brings down all it's toggles).

Thanks to CuppaJo for making this a the Official thread (sticky would still be nice though ).

I personally like Footstomp the way it is (recharge and damage wise). It will be a ton better (playability wise) without the KB in it when that change gets put in.

I think there are too many higher damaging AOEs floating around and that compounds the upper end game problem. AOEs for Tankers (again, in my mind) should be lower damage, agro holding types of powers. The kind of power that makes mobs go "Oh [censored]!!! Get that guy first!!!!".

All SS Tankers (and Tankers in general who may want changes affected on their behalf in the future) who support these changes should PM this to Statesman and Positron to come and review this list and comments.

Thanks to CuppaJo for making this the Official Thread. It's much appreciated.

Thanks!

This is now the official Super Strength thread. Standard rules apply. All other threads will be locked.

Ok here it is as promised and in priority order. The goal of this was to get the SS line up to snuff with the other Tanker secondaries. The basic gist was to concentrate on damage and drawbacks with some utility and build schedule thought thrown in. This is from the ideas circulated around the boards and specifically hashed out in the follow threads:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#1234216

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#1264247

These changes are listed in order of priority. We (the SS Tanker community as a whole) would like to see these changes implemented within the Content Issue #2 patch. The majority of these changes reflect small number tweaks to existing code. These changes have been requested with thought to balance and gameplay being foremost.

In order of priority:

1) Knockout Blow changes. The current buffed up Knockout Blow on test is decent but everyone seems to agree that it still needs more bolstering. Slight damage hike to place it solidly in the Superior Damage category (rather than just at the low end doorstep) and a recharge time of 16s rather than the current 25. This is to bring the power in line with other Superior damage category powers across the other Tanker secondaries (mind you this will be the first SS damage power that will exceed a Heavy rating while every other line has at least 2 that do).

2) Rage changes. Drop the disorient component and put in a -DEF penalty while in use (-25% suggested) and a 75% endurance drop at the end. Raise the recharge time to 8 minutes with a 2 minute buff duration. Alternative suggestion is to make the disorient component a Mag 1 disorient instead of the current high Mag disorient.

3) Hurl changes. Bump Hurl up to Superior damage (change of graphic to match Propel would be nice too, but certainly secondary). Increase recharge time to 16s (this is to bolster the SS line with a second Superior or better damage power to match all of the other Tanker secondaries). Many people are asking for Extreme damage considering the double KB effect being proposed for this by Geko (and SS has no Extreme category damage power currently).

4) KB changes. While currently in the works and in line with what has already been proposed by Geko, we would like to see the Knockdown rule apply across the board for all SS powers (all Tanker secondaries really) that currently have Knockback in them (including Hurl and Handclap) with the ability to add Knockback enhancements in them as the player chooses. Additional suggestion is just to have a KB/KD switch that a player can run in game to choose whether to have knockback or knockdown. The rationale being that players who like knockback shouldn't be penalized moreso for having to replace a damage enhancement with a knockback enhancement on top of the DPS penalty for the actual knockback itself.

5) Exchange Footstomp and Knockout Blow on progression order (important for build schedule). If Hurl changes (#3 above) are implemented then place Hurl at the L38 spot, Knockout Blow in place of Hurl in progression and finally Footstomp in the L20 spot in place of Knockout Blow.

6) Handclap. Add the ability to enhance Handclap with Taunt Duration enhancements. Buff base Taunt Duration slightly. Allow enhanceable knockback but knockdown by default. Decrease recharge time to 12s. This would be a replacement power for Provoke ideally (#8 below).

7) Jab. Raise damage to match Stone Fist. Alternatively switch Jab and Punch on progression chart.

8) Replace Taunt with Provoke (across all Tanker secondaries) in effect for Tanker secondary version of Taunt. Most Tankers feel they shouldn't have to give up a power pool set for this one power that is essentially, a Tanker-only power to begin with. Alternative suggestion is to add to base taunt duration and allow Taunt Duration enhancements to be placed in all AOE non-damaging Tanker secondary powers (1 per secondary) as per suggestion #6 above.

The vast majority of Super Strength Tankers that post on these boards have agreed that they would like to see these changes. We feel that they are not unbalancing, but rather leave the Super Strength Tanker, while still still in a lower position when compared to any other Tanker secondary, in a much more playable area then the current status of Super Strength.

Thank you in advance for any and all changes that you might do (and have already done) to this line to help it become more fun to play.

- Super Strength Tankers

P.S. - I have sent copies of this to Statesman, Positron and CuppaJo (to sticky this thread).

Heh me too!