Kruunch

Scrappers are exactly what Scrappers should be at levels 20-30 (as are Tankers really). L20-30 are your best levels in this game balance wise.

Scrappers should be high offense and low defense. Scrappers start losing this concept around L28 (Instant Healing, Invincibility, etc ...) and totally get unbalanced at L38+ (Unstoppable, 6 slotted Tough and Weave, etc ....).

Conversely I think Tankers were planned poorly from a power standpoint. I think every Tanker secondary should have been scaleable single target damage (Stone Fist, Stone Mallet, Greater Stone Mallet being a great example) with a few minor damage AOEs thrown in (i.e. Handclap but with minor damage, or Footstomp with less damage).

Scrappers should have had faster attacks, no single target damage attack should have been better (or equal to) a Tankers and they should have had a plethora of moderate and minor damage AOEs (mostly cones). They should be the kings of DPS (and minion killing, NOT Boss killing), where as Tankers should primarily be slow one shot wonders.

Hasten should be removed from the game entirely. Except for really excessive recharge times, this power makes the recharge component of DPS meaningless.

And everyone needs to stop comparing this game to the Marvel or DC universe heroes. It's like me howling about how my 18th Wizard in EQ isn't like Gandalf. They are silly comparisons (they won't be when Marvel's MMOG comes out but that's going to be their utter mess to deal with).

And of course, as with all things, these are just my personal opinions.

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No, actually I just believe that characters like the Hulk are, at worst, too imbalanced to exist in CoH in the first place, and (at best) the pinnacle of extremity when it comes to a Tanker example. And neither of those represents a wise model to base a tanker on in the first place, so I honestly don’t understand why people continuously pull him out as an example of how a tanker should be.

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I agree with this statement. A comic book doesn't really have to worry about balancing its characters. A video game does. Too many people tend to forget this.

Then again these types of debate are to be expected due to the genre (they happen in every MMOG but much moreso in this one).

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I ment Balanced as in both AE and Single target powers, not as in under or overpowered. I thought I made that clear in my post.

Anyway, you dodged the question why Whirling Axe, Whirling Hands, Tremor and Whirling Mace should be better then Foot Stomp?

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Dunno. You're going to have to ask the guys who made the powers.

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I am not only comparing with Fire, there are other PBAE attacks like Whirling Axe, Whirling Hands, Tremor and Whirling Mace. They have similar stats and all make Foot Stomp look bad. Fire SWord Circle does more damage thou and has the same cost and recharge as Foot Stomp.

Fiery Melee does have high damage attacks too, Greater Fire Sword does as much damage as the new Knockout Blow. Incinerate also does more damage then Haymaker. Fiery Melee is actualy pretty balanced with both good AE and single target attacks.

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See that's where we differ. I consider Mace (current Mace) or possibly the Stone the most balanced of the Tanker secondaries. I feel Fire and Axe are over the top (Fire moreso because of the AOEs). SS I think is about where it should be ... just a bit clunkier then Mace or Stone (Hurl, Rage and Handclap being the clunkyness). Ice needs some help. Energy is low end at the beginning picks up through the middle of the build and is over powered a tad at the top end (all things considered, pretty well off though).

Lungothar: Thanks for the numbers. Cones are definitely AOEs, but you're right, cone to cone the AOE of them can be pretty dramatic. Assuming Fire Breath has the same range and AOE as the Fire Blaster's Fire Breath, it's a workable and good AOE .... especially for a Tanker.

Now keep in mind that these are my takes on things. I certainly don't represent the majority considering how many people still want more damage in general and to the SS line specifically. I personally don't feel the SS line needs more damage anymore with what's on Test. I do feel certain powers need to be tweaked a bit to be made less awkward to use.

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Ironicaly i just leveled and am on my way now to test server and try out both, fire circle sword and combust (the only 2 aoe attacks on fire). Will try them both unsloted and tell you the numbers i get then. (am lvl 32)

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Lungorthar: Cones count as AOE as well (although granted in some cases their area is almost nothing).

Znail: I find Footstomp pretty tolerable for what it does. If you're running around without any endurance regen ability (i.e no Stamina or Unstoppable or something similar) then yeah, Footstomp can wear you out. It's recharge however I've found fairly good. Anything faster and you could just chain Footstomps if you're running Hasten. I think Footstomp is relatively balanced in other words considering the line as a whole. Fire doesn't have as high of attacks so having more and faster AOEs at their disposal makes a certain amount of sense (to me).

What other Tanker AOEs are we talking here?

Fire secondary's AOEs do about the same damage as Footstomp I believe? They just get more of them.

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Ah, but I only offered increasing damage as an alternative as its an easier change to do then redoing animation.

As for Foot Stomp, I dont have the power myself so can only compare the data from others. Using the pre-issue 2 numbers from Heroplaner:

Its listed as moderate damage, knockback (down now then), 26.5 endurance and 20 second recharge.
Compre this with Tremors moderate damage, knockback, 19.5 endurance and 14 second recharge.

Now these may be wrong, are they?

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That's about right on Footstomp. Don't know the particulars of Tremors personally but it sounds right.

I don't (personally) have to have everything exactly the same as another line. I just like it to be close. Footstomp currently works well (even moreso with the KB changes). I honestly don't see a reason to touch it. Anything you did recharge time or damage wise would just exaserbate the AOE problems this game has (again, in my opinion).

That and the move of KO Blow up to extreme damage, coupled with the fact that you can still pick it up at L20 currently makes the SS build something you can realize offensively a bit sooner. I'm not sure now for those that have tried the new version of KO Blow and Footstomp if they would want to switch its placement now (although Footstomp is a great AOE agro generator as well as doing damage).

Gotta disagree with you there Znail.

I think Footstomp is just about where it should be. Especially after the KB changes get implemented.

Hurl could use some tweaks, mostly to animation time (and graphics). I wouldn't touch it's damage though at this point (considering what they did with KO Blow).

I think the recharge time alone will keep it from being overbalanced. I believe Energy has a power equal to this with the same stats.

I didn't note the endurance consumption though. I was too giddy hitting things hehe.

One thing I will note is that this power is most effective against Bosses, and the hold doesn't seem to apply to them (at least it didn't effect the Paragon Protector I tried this against ... speaking of which it still did 100+ damage against Moment of Glory .... zoinks!).

I'm of the opinion we should leave it alone. It's absolutely perfect as is (as both a power in the game, and an SS power conceptually).

They couldn't have gotten this power more right if Stan Lee was dictating it.

Bonesnap: Go copy your SS Tanker to test. Do it now. You won't be disappointed.

KO Blow 6 slotted (damage) with Rage on against an even con minion at L38: 489 damage.

All I can say is ..... WOW (and I ain't talkin' about a Blizzard game here)!

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In the Training Room, Knockout Blow has had its endurance cost and damage increased to equal Total Focus/Seismic Smash.

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See? Changes can happen. Just a little patience.

Thanks Volante

Hey Kunoichi,
I wouldn't be able to give you those numbers (I'm not that total number cruncher you're pegging me for btw). I would tend to think they're rather subjective too.

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How on earth did you get up to L39 and not run into multiple stun issues without either US or Unstoppable?

Do you just enjoy sleeping/drunken walking alot?

Or did you solely kill 5th Column (sans Vamps) in all that time?

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I answered this actually a page back.

Everyone has access to discipline inspirations. I make sure I always have a few on hand for emergencies, and I stock up on them beforehand when I know I’m entering a mission with villains that cause stun/mez problems (like the Rikti and Devouring Earth). There’s nothing really difficult about planning ahead. I don’t think I’ve ever walked blindly into a mission and said “Holy smokes, it’s a Rikti trap!”. /panic

Other players that I group with frequently have powers that aid in protecting me from effects like mez. So, there are a couple of options right there that guarantee I can avoid these nasty effects a majority of the time. It’s not like every Rikti can mez, and when I run into a Rikti Mentalist I just make sure to take him out of the picture as quickly as possible before doing anything else.

The players I group with also know to ease up on the offense if I do happen to get put into a situation where I can’t react because I’m mesmerized, because they know if they do this the villains that were agro on me before I got stunned will still be concentrating on me after I recover. Thus I don’t have to worry about teammate casualties while I’m taking a 5 second snooze.

The people I play with know their characters. They may be more frail than a Tanker, but they know they're driving around superheroes that are capable of dealing with the same threats I can in their own way. If a villain gets past me because I'm momentarily in la-la land and latches onto the Defender, she doesn’t panic and run around screaming for help while it kills her, she simply proceeds to kick its rear with her own situational powers.

In the end, no Unyielding Stance needed, and complete freedom of movement 100% of the time. I can’t imagine playing an action-based game like this any other way.

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Ah.

Kind of reminds me of the time I made a solo capable, melee based Controller. Fun as heck.

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I hate playing the "level" card, but you really need to get to a higher level to know what most of us are referring to. I've got no clue what level you are but I'd be willing to bet it's somewhere in the 20s which is pretty much the ideal level range (18-31) for a Tanker in this game. Either that or you just solo 100% of the time oblivious to everyone and everything else around you (I have a friend who does this and he loves his Inv/SS Tanker).


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Krunch, 39 is the highest SS/Inv Tanker I’ve had (and life up to that point seemed fine), although now I’m playing a lower–level tanker on a different server where some friends of mine are. While I have solo'd at times, most of my adventuring is done in smaller groups because I feel the game lends itself best in that format, with larger groups (which I do now and then as well) being chaotic and for the most part un-fun (but that's another debate).

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How on earth did you get up to L39 and not run into multiple stun issues without either US or Unstoppable?

Do you just enjoy sleeping/drunken walking alot?

Or did you solely kill 5th Column (sans Vamps) in all that time?

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Quick question for the number-Krunchers...

Aren't the Tanker DPS'es, and especially Super Strength, supposed to be 75% of what Scrappers dish out?

If so, is that true in practice? On paper?

What about damage per minute?

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Depends the build. Fire/Fire Tankers can do 75% DPS of most Scrapper builds. They will also kill alot more at once then most Scrapper builds (barring Spines) because of the combined AOEs of that build.

Once Issue #2 comes out Axe will be right up there (possibly even 100%+ of some Scrapper builds actually).

High level Energy might be as well. Nowhere near it in the early game, but I hear their later offensive powers are truly amazing.

Stone/Mace/SS/Ice/Fire (secondaries) don't come close to matching 75% of a Scrapper's DPS (any Scrapper). More like 40% in practical terms.

Except for maybe the Fire secondary, damage per minute is meaningless since most fights don't last a minute. However if you were going damage per minute, then Scrappers far exceed Tankers (190%?) as Tanker endurance issues start to come into play (somewhat relieved by Issue #2) and Scrappers generally attack much faster.

Flip_X: I was talking about Ice secondary. Ice primary is only gimpy if you leave Outbreak

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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.

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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently SS is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.

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I need to fix that....

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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.

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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently Ice Melee is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.

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There we go

SS may be gimped compared to other attack powers, but it's certainly not the gimpest. SS is simply being sensationalized because it's the most popular (everyone and their brother wants to be their own Superman). If Ice Melee or any of the other secondaries was as popular as SS, then we'd have the same topic too.

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NO WE'RE MORE GIMPIER THEN YOU GODDA.....

Oh wait you're the one Ice Tanker playing this game.

My bad. You're gimper.

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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.

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YAY!!! By the sound of it I'll soon be able to punch the bejeezus out of stuff and still play my tankers. That's really ideal. Can't wait to test out your ideas. I'll be first on line on the test servers!

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I can't wait to find out what his ideas are

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Actually I feel like Krunch has been instead pushing to change Tankers to work within a broken concept, instead of working to fix the broken concept (if one even exists) so Tankers work correctly again in the end-game. There’s a difference.

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You might feel that way (and I can't help how you feel) but that is incorrect. The changes I proposed originally and have been since crafted and added to and subtracted from from more then 4 dozen people (by my last count). This has all been done within the framework of staying within the Tanker AT with the idea of bringing up SS Tankers up to the same realm as the other Tanker secondaries (Ice aside for a moment).

I specifically said that these changes do not reflect the much broader issues of Tankers losing their primary role in groups post 30th.

I hate playing the "level" card, but you really need to get to a higher level to know what most of us are referring to. I've got no clue what level you are but I'd be willing to bet it's somewhere in the 20s which is pretty much the ideal level range (18-31) for a Tanker in this game. Either that or you just solo 100% of the time oblivious to everyone and everything else around you (I have a friend who does this and he loves his Inv/SS Tanker).

I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all. Just don't assign incorrect motives to the time I've invested in this particular issue.

Thanks.

Warpsite: Sigh. I feel your pain man and you will be missed bro.

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I'm sorry, Noble, you seem to be responding to the wrong post. Here's the one you meant to respond to:

OMG U SUXX0RZ 4 HAV 2 UZ US! LOLOLOLOLLLZ!!!!!1!!1!!1! I M TEH UB0R HAV WEY AROND IT!!! IF U KANT SUVIV WITHOUT US U SUXX0RZ TEH BALZZZ!!!! LOLOL!!!!1!!!!1111!!!

Now, if you want to actually pay attention to what I was SAYING, I was simply agreeing that I don't think US is an absolute must have. There was no call for you to try and taunt me regarding that. I freely admit to not having a lot of experience in the top-end game, and maybe I will regret making that decision later- but maybe not. There's no way to say for sure, until I get there. In the meantime, I'll just have my fun playing my tank my way and reminding people that there is no 'one way'. I'm not saying my way is better for anyone other than myself- but it works better for me, and it might work better for people who play like I do. It might not. But you'll never find out if you don't try.

And, thanks Kruunch, but Frozen Touch is Minor(DoT) and I think it was Frozen Aura that they were bumping up? Not sure.

Statesman- glad to hear that work's being done.

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Good post and you're absolutely right. One of the stengths of this game is that you can do different things with the same AT combo. And this is coming from someone who has played the upper third of the game with two different characters.

Oh and you don't have to take US. You can survive quite well with Unstoppable. If you choose not to take either your life might become a bit .... frustrating (or boring if you just stick to the couple of upper factions that have no stunners/mezzers). The number of overall status effects in this game (especially stun/hold/sleep) is a bit steep imo.

Warspite: Hang out man. I think Statesman was using a very broad example. I took it to mean that he's looking at ways to bump up Tankers in general either in feel or power or both. But I will say that was a rather vague Statesmen(t).

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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.

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Ummm just wanted to correct one thing. Currently SS is a poor cousin to most of the other TANKER secondaries. Scrappers are playing in a whole different game.

Ya know it occurs to me that Statesman and Stateswoman never appear at the sametime.

Coincidence?

I think not.

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Gang,
I'm holding off on touching Super Strength until we tackle a somewhat greater issue with Tankers - namely that they lack that "comic book feel." Specifically, you'd like to see Super Strength be something somewhat, well, "Hulk-ish." But currently, Super Strength is a poor cousin to Scrapper powers - which seems somewhat out of place. Don't worry - what we're looking at as a fix for ALL Tankers addresses this issue.

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Thanks for the heads up.

Fix for all Tankers regarding the comic-feel issue? Errrr in this issue?

Gotta say, in standard Statesman fashion you got me really curious now.

For all those that say the devs don't respond:

Mentalee: Errr nice timing eh? hehehe

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Likewise here- people keep saying I have to be solely aggro-grab and it really, really cheeses me off.

Fortunately, the number of people saying that is fairly low, even if they do say it a lot.

I would like to mention though, that Kruunch said that all tanker secondaries other than SS have two 'superior' damage attacks. I don't think Ice Melee has that. I actually have no complaints about the damage I do, but I don't recall seeing anything above 'Moderate' as a damage label on any of the Ice attacks. Did I miss something, or is that right?

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Oops yeah you're right. I don't know what category Freezing Touch got bumped up to but Ice was even more feeble then SS for damage (their offsetting perk was slow and holds (not a good sub for damage but ...)).

Fire also doesn't have a Superior or Extreme attack but they make up for it with 3 (4?) AOEs.

Menelee: What Genesis says is correct. He should feel free to voice his personal concerns about these proposed changes, just as you should feel free to support them. In the end, if there is an overwhelming majority supporting these changes and the devs don't find them to be hard to impelement or cause some other unforeseen problems, they may implement a few or even all of them at some point. The fact that they've implemented some already (KO Blow and the KB changes) leaves me optimistic for the future. Even if nothing else gets implemented I'm going to enjoy the crap out of what's on Test already

Actually I don't feel Genesis is attacking me. I like his view points on this (I don't nessecarily agree with them but I like them).

What I like that he brings up is the flavor over substance issue, and using the powers as-is to their best effect (too many people don't do that).

However I do want to point out that these are not my suggestions specifically. As a matter of fact, most of them aren't ... they're a general consensus by the majority of SS Tankers on these boards (majority meaning not all, just most). Not only are they a majority, but an overwhelming majority (I based "majority" on a 10:2 ratio btw if you want to know the specifics).

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Let’s say the two of us agree to fund a one-slot snack machine together at our office. I only buy into the idea because you assure me it’ll be filled with cookies. However, being a candy person you really don’t like cookies, but assume that after I’ve invested time and money into the idea you can eventually get things changed so that the machine will be stocked with candy, which I abhor. Now ask me why I’d be annoyed.

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I think everyone who plays an SS Tanker totally relates to this quote of yours (Genesis). The one problem with it (from the perspective you gave) is that most people felt they were promised a more dynamic, less clunky and fulfilling role then the one current given for SS Tankers, both in damage and utility (and need for that matter but that's a whole seperate issue).

Basically that quote is spot on, except Cryptic is the one that promised the cookies and gave us Sour Patch Kid candy instead. My role here is not someone lobbying for changes so I can play something particularly uber (I think I've pointed that out previously). I'm not trying to change the SS line into something I personally want (I think I addressed that as well). I am here as an irate paying customer. A customer who has paid for a certain product and service and hasn't received everything he's paid for (and been misled to boot).

Something you should note: not everyone who plays COH was in beta and got a free sneak peak at what they'd be playing. Like most newly released MMOGs there was no free 14 day trial download. You had to buy the software before you found out that this game didn't offer some of the things it claimed to have. The SS line (among other things) is just one example. Again, don't begrudge me for trying to change it (just like I won't begrudge you for saying you like it "as is"). The alternative would just be cancelling the game and going to another one. Somehow I doubt that that's what Cryptic wants its customers to do.

And just to clarify, I'm L40 currently. Half of these changes wouldn't mean a thing to my character.