Kruunch

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Actually you say that they shouldn't ignore the threat attacking them directly or even taunts. I would agree with this for some mobs. However, to me, there would be some who might given that they're too mindless (Vaz and Hydra zombies and blobs respectively) or given to single mindedness(Cot and Tsoo Demons/Spirits) and strictly disciplined (Council, Nemesis and Malta) under normal circumstances. I thnk a case can be made for some who would by pass normal aggro rules as a strategy for winning.

Does that mean assault of Defenders/Controllers as THE primary targets in all cases? Not necessarily.

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An interesting question in all this is what happens in PVP?

I don't do PVP at all, so maybe this isn't an issue. Is PVP usually soloists in "every man for himself" mode? Or do you get teams fighting each other?


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Both. PvP is still in it's early stages, so you see less organized Team vs. Team, but you can routinely find people soloing and/or banded together in PvP zones (even if they're not specifically grouped together).

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I would certainly ignore the tank and go for the healer/buffer FIRST if I were in PVP, because that's just what makes sense. The tank has the least ability to *do* anything to you, and good luck taking his HP down if he's got someone heal-camping him or buffing him. The defender, however, even buffed is a squishy, and you could seriously increase your chance of winning by getting rid of him first. The controller has all those holds (and the ability to toggle-drop) and is therefore extremely dangerous.


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Really depends the situation. Most people I'm sure would *MUCH* rather attempt to take a solo Tanker down before trying a solo Controller/Defender (both of which depending the builds can be among the hardest to overcome).

Also that's not precisely true about Tankers. Ice Tankers are a super threat in PvP because they act like uber buffed Controllers (slows are a killer in PvP). Imagine a Controller with 3k+ HPs, high defense (meaning everything has a hard time hitting), slow effects both ranged and PBAOE and virtually immune to status effects.

Or any Tanker with Port Foe (something every PvP Tanker should have btw) becomes a threat. Or intimidate/fear. Or Stealth and flying. Really depends on how you play and what you're going up against.

Not to mention all Tankers with Taunt can just be flat out annoying (Taunt in PvP switches your target to the Tanker in question for 5 seconds or there abouts).

And then sometimes just being yourself makes you target number one.

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I agree, some minons, like the Vahz, are mindless. These guys could easily follow the normal (current) aggro rules. But any villain with half a brain, and certainly those being directed by LTs or especially Bosses, should be smart enough to size up the danger and figure out the proper order of attacking things, and just by common sense that order is NOT always Tanker first Defender last... and is usually the reverse.

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You're thinking from a game mechanics point of view. From an RP point of view, who would you consider the bigger threat, The Hulk or Iron Man using a med kit?

Also there is a certain amount of programming that goes into the AI for each type of mob (mins vs lts, as well as Vahz vs Family, etc ...) so the depth of the AI can only go so far (this holds true for any MMO and CoH in that respect isn't that different from most MMOs).

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I'd be interested to know what happens in PVP. How do defenders on teams survive without the stupidity of the AI on their side? And if they can survive PVP, then why wouldn't they survive in PVE also?

I'm just curious really.. I don't expect any of this to change.

F

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Defenders survive PvP because while game AI is stupid, it never misses. A mob locks on to a Defender, fires as soon as the game allows for, gets up as soon as the game allows for, if it has flea code, fleas as soon as its triggered (i.e. it's not indecisive), etc .... Not to mention the Defender can just pick up and haul [censored] out of there (which happens a lot too).

In PvP you face real people with real (human) reactions and timing. So while most of us can fight better then the games' AI in theory, in practice we're actually not as dependable as the game's AI. That's why you have good PvPers and bad PvPers and why that can change over time and why battles aren't predictable boring affairs.

That's the sheer genius of PvP vs. PvE

True but L10-20 has always been the hardest levels for a Tanker. The mitigating circumstance (to me) here is that you can fly through the teens in less then a week if that's your desire.

But yeah I agree that these levels would be good to show how Tankers have been affected by the I5 + ED changes (then again, the way Statesman tanks, maybe not .... fuggin 2 mob hittin' pansy ).

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From Statesman on the Euro forums:

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I've responded to the tanker issue - I've played builds myself, described my tactics. I'll gladly try different builds and circumstances...but all in all, I feel a tanker can still Tank.

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And I still call BS. His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?

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Sorry didn't read a lot of this thead but this caught my eye.

What Statesman says here is true by and large .... Tankers can still tank by the strictest of definitions.

What I think Statesman needs to do is play a Tanker for a solid 2 weeks, everyday (same Tanker). I would highly suggest him starting with an L20 Tanker.

Let him play his Tanker 2-3 hours (at a clip) everyday, 6 days a week (1 day off for good behavior) for 2 weeks.

Then let's hear his opinion of the Tanker from a "how much fun did he have playing it" perspective. I'd be really interested to hear his thoughts under those circumstances.

But he won't.

Why?

Who wants to be that bored for 2 weeks?

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I replied to States abt looking into those powers like Tanker passives that only use one type of enh. The purpose of ED would not have applied to those powers, unless the intent was "tough luck".

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A big part of the purpose of ED was to tone down the power level of the entire game (from a Player's perspective). So in that sense, yes Tanker passives were very much a part of the purpose of ED (although ED and I5 combined, it went over the edge).

Tanker Primaries, while not glorious for the most part, were worth tanking and slotting right away. Many (if not all) aren't now at the lower levels due to the small base numbers (this is one arguement I whole heartedly agree with).

This exacerbates the Tanker's underwhelming feeling.

Statesman (in my mind) is also balancing things in CoH to the wrong equation. He is basing what *should work* balance wise, not on his personal experience, but on someone else's model (EQ).

The problem is that CoH doesn't follow the EQ model is a vast variety of ways.

In the very beginning of CoH I advocated these types of changes and lobbied heavily for them. A year and a half down the road, I think it's time for Cryptic to understand what they have here (and why it works on a commercial scale).

In short, the changes that have been wrought are with EQ balancing in mind. However without EQ type dynamics, you're getting a lot of the negative with little of the positive from that system. CoH is really more of a casual player oriented game. Cryptic should stick to that demographic, rather than try to adhere to a system that really doesn't apply (most of your "No EQ in tights" arguements).

Just my 2 influence.

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This morning, I had PMs in my box saying the Accuracy of Dark Melee, Energy Melee and Claws seem to be wrong. I've gotten similar PMs about Ninja Blade as well.

We've tons of data here which all support that accuracy is working as intended and players still have a base 75% to hit even level critters.

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Over a year and a half later and we're still doing accuracy nerfed posts?

How did we ever get past the wheel?

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We've all seen a lot of back and forth in the PvP boards about Stalkers. We've seen complaints in the Stalker threads about needing improvement...I've noticed you seem very receptive to the idea that Stalkers might not be good enough. There's no point in debating about overpowered vs underpowered because it is largely a subjective discussion and offers little clarity.

One thing I think that has to be put on the table is that it would seem improbable for the devs to 100% nail the "balance" of the Stalker AT in PvP right out the gate nor would I expect them too. I realize there was internal testing and beta testing, but I do not believe the devs would contend that the data was conclusive or complete under those circumstances.

However, I am intereted in the devs providing the player base with a statement about how they perceive the risk vs reward for stalkers in PvP.

1) When the Arena first came out, Positron said he wasn't overly concerned with the 1v1 battles because it was too much of a rock/papers/scissors affair. How do we reconcile the dev philosophy that 1v1 can't be balanced and yet make sense of a toon that is designed for 1v1 combat? How does one side-step 1v1 balance on one hand and then appropriately balance an entire AT for it on another?

2) The Arena is a situation where neither toon can leave the battle. Players, blasters in particular, were using Phase Shift to effectively gank and escape and the devs put a stop to it. Clearly ganking was not to be tolerated. What is interesting is that the Stalker AT is predicated on ganking. Its speciality is the 1v1 battle with the escape. Why take that ability away from blasters in consensual battles but promote and endorse it in another AT in non-consensual battles?

3) I am unaware of any AT power that doesn't have some counter in another AT without resorting to power pools. Defender buffs are unresistable, but yet people can buff themseves beyond those debuffs a la Fort, Build-Up, etc. Blasters have some unresistable damage, but the majority of it is resistable. Every status power has some opposing power that resists it. Fear, Holds, Sleep, even Slows, have their counters within the players very powers themselves. Even Taunt in PvP is not 100%. And yet, nothing resists Placate. Yes, I understand you can knock someone out of it...provding you somehow manage to trigger an attack that launched before Placate takes affect and hits after (you can't honestly say this is an expected skill). Or, you can launch a PBAoE and hope to hit, provided you have one. But this isn't resistance to the statusing power like every other status power has. Are there plans to offer the other sets resistance to Placate e.g. Give Clear Mind, Integration, Practiced Brawler, Ind Will, etc?

(Btw, Assault offers no usable protection against Placate. Don't know if it is a bug, but I stood there and let one placate me...and I was not able to target them at all...and certainly not within the time for them to launch an AS after running around for a few seconds...and no...Assault wasn't detoggled).

3) It seems that the AT's in CoH have their foils in CoV. And vice versa. Who is the foil for a Stalker? Who can consistently solo defeat Stalkers who do not want to be defeated to the same extent that they can defeat any solo AT that doesn't want to be defeated? ...I'm reading that Stalkers can one-shot tanks in BB and Siren's with enough Rages. No solo AT can achieve the invisilibty of Stalkers, so should Stalkers be the only set that doesn't have to constantly be looking over its shoulder for fear of some hero?

Again, my question is not about is this too much or not enough, but how you and the devs perceive the balance and most importantly, how the off-setting weaknesses are actually substantive. What do I mean by that? Geko stated that one of the reasons that they turned IH back into a click is that they could not balance it as a toggle. They had meant for it to have a great healing benefit, and thought the huge endurance drain would compensate. But players proved they could avoid this penalty by six slotting QR and Stamina. So the penalty, though substantial...was not substantive. The same thing was said about Perma-Unstoppable. People were compensating for the crash, so there was not substantive penalty. It existed on paper, but was easily compensated for in-game. People talk about toons with damaging auras are proof against Hide...but I recall you explicity saying you were able to crit a Fire Brute...through BA and defeat him.

I think it would help a lot of the players if you explain how the devs perceive the AT is balanced in PvP and how that actually plays out in PvP...not how it plays out theoritically.

For all the Pro-Stalkers posters out there. I like Stalkers. I like the element that the AT brings to CoH. The joy in defeating them is almost as enjoyable as beating blasters. I also have defeated Stalkers with my Scrappers 1v1, so I'm not even protending that Stalkers are invincible. My lvl 33 has defeated a lvl 40 Stalker in Warburg...several times. But each and every defeat of a stalker was only a result:

1) they simply chose not to use enough Rages to one shot me.

2) They stuck around for the fight.

and usually,

3) I was playing a /regen

In absolutely none of those situations could I have defeated the Stalker if they had decided to check out early. And ...I was defeated far more times by Stalkers that stuck around than I defeated. So it wasn't like I sailed to victory. I'm not asking for any changes. I'm asking for an understanding from the devs for how this AT fits within the context of PvP from a substantive Risk vs Reward model.

I don't believe for a second that it is an easy task to balance this type of AT for PvP, so I'm certainly not recusing the devs even one bit, I am trying to understand it from their perspective.

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You do not understand PvP nor the class structure of CoH/V and apparently don't read between the lines well regarding the Arena.

Let me explain.

First off, comparing the current PvP to 1v1 Arena fights is much like comparing your Match Box car that you play zoom-zoom with, to my formula-1 racer that I won the Indy 500 with. The Arena was essentially Cryptic's way of testing out PvP. That's where your logic takes a large skew. That's how you got such changes as the Phase Shift change you mentioned. The difference between Phase Shift and Hide, is that Phase Shift couldn't be broken, while Hide can be.

CoH/V in general (and PvP is no different here) is balanced as a group game. You essentially have no choice in a game where multiple people with different power sets can interact. PvP is no different here. Now I can't speak for the devs, but the logical answer to your question would be that each class is balanced versus a set of criteria based upon current power sets, enchancement options and orientation within the game. To be really clear about this .... PvP in CoH is not balanced 1v1. If you want a 1v1 tailored PvP game, you need to find a different game.

As for your details .... Stalkers aren't any different from any other front loaded damage class. In fact, you may say that they are typical of them. However as far as inspirations go, I agree with you. However this isn't a Stalker issue, it's an inspiration issue. Having stackable buffs that are the same with no realistic cap is flat out silly and unbalancing. This is another area of the game that will be changed (I honestly can't believe it hasn't been already).

Finally, while everyone bases their opinion on their experiences, there's a certain flaw in judging a whole AT upon your experiences of fighting them for a few minutes/hours. Much like I wouldn't say baseball is a horrible sport, because I personally happen to be bad at it (although there will be people who will say that), please don't judge a whole AT because you happen to have difficulties against them (or in this case, a single person in particular).

Preach it sistah!

Neat stuff.

Thanks Top!

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like most attacks will make an aoe of provokedness?

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Yup.

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"The increased aggro is something that's close to implementation. "

are we short agro? i alwayse thought we were just peachy, maybe a little on the strong side

is it about provokeish effect being added to the AT lines rather than pool?

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Yes he's referring to the provoke style effect in all Tanker melee attacks.

And there goes respec #3.

Any chance I can get my respec counters set back to 0?

*smirk*

Hmmm unless they changed something between Targetting Drone and Trip Mine (slotted with dmg only) I always found that I hit with much more regularity with my Fireball then I did with Trip Mine (leading me to believe that the TD was the difference).

My TD is 3 slotted now for ToHit Buffs and I virtually never miss with any of my direct attacks. I do miss around 25-40% with my Trip Mines (depending the cons). I haven't done exhaustive tests on this, so take that for what you will.

And yes I agree with you that a single Trip Mine, even with Aim will not one shot an orange con minion. It is generally assumed that when people are saying they are taking out multiple higher con mobs with Trip Mine they do mean they are using more then one.

BTW I only have TM slotted with damage. It's miss ratio never really bothered me as I've always used Trip Mines as a softening up measure. Now with the SG changes, I think you will find TM becoming more important in this build.

Sorry if I've caused a gluttony of Fire/Dev Blasters ... it is a fun build

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The biggest problem with it(tripmine) is that your targeting drone has no effect on it.


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Not true.

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Fully slotted with DMGS, I will take out oranges...


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Shall I be polite and simply state the non-truth of this statement?
... or just call you outright liar?

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Wrong on both counts.

TD doesn't effect TM.

I've taken out groups of purple cons with multiple TMs.

And your attitude is especially puzzling considering you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

How are you guys finding this build post Issue #2 release now?

Semantics. That's all we're talking about here.

I'll be happy when the game is more challenging on its own without having to invent my own challenges (hey let's take on those 80 Nemesis with Brawl!).

I don't care if they're called minions, shlubs or wittle putty tats. If they present a challenge great. When I beat them I will feel happier then just wailing on dozens of mis-cons (there isn't an even con in this game that's a true even con).

You people worry too much about this crap

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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?


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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!

Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.

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You should put that XP bump quote in your signature.

People around here have the reading retention of a Fig Newton.

You forgot the Brood.

Perfect example of high level minions. Sure kicked the X-Men's [censored].

A few clarifications here because EVERYONE is starting to miss the forest for the trees:

1) Heph: you can disagree all you want. That's your god given right. In the end, the game is going to be what the game is. You will decide to play it or not as it fulfills or doesn't fulfill your entertainment scratch. One thing is guaranteed though ... we will ALL eventually not be playing COH. So in that sense, you are correct .... people will leave as that entertainment itch gets scratched by something else.

2) Knockout Blow on test does indeed one shot an even con minion. You can use it optimally once every 12 seconds with Hasten on. So what?

3) Statesman: for a guy who knows thousands of languages (I think you know 5, but tales of great Ulysses and all) and has more degrees then I have toilet paper in my house right now, you sure can be dumb. First rule of negotiations ... never be the first to mention numbers

4) Trying to cram missions and spawn points full of 100 count minions will wreck my video card so shaddup.

5) I've seen Elves in Spandex in COH already so what's your point?

6) I've also seen the Ambiguous Gay Duo in COH, are you going to argue against closet gays playing this game as well?

7) Yes I would very much like to see you drive a car through a store window. And let me know how many slots it has kthx.

8) Guys this is a game .... take a breath.

Sheesh look at that.

Ok first off: STATESMAN GET OUTTA MY DAMN THREAD!!!!!!

You are a hijacker of the worst order. Now every friggin' Blaster/Controller/Scrapper/Defender is gonna chime in on this

Secondly, you guys call yourselves Tankers?! They should rename this AT to "Bunch of Whiney Old Women(tm)". You guys absolutely disgust me.

Everything from the worst oversimplification (Heph) to someone up there "weeping" about this game. Take a hanky and get a life son. Tankers don't weep.

Ok, on the cruxt of the matter, and it don't include minions or levels, or what color their friggin name tag comes in.

The name of the game is fun. You play this game to have fun and be entertained.

The problem with this game is that it comes with certain expectations .... the problem being that these expectations vary WIDELY from person to person because they are viewing this game from a totally different perspective then the next guy (and gal).

Comic Book Fan: This person plays this game with the idea of being able to "live" the comic book stories that he/she adores as the Super Hero that they envision (whether original or not).

MMOG Fan: Wants a massively multi player online experience. Just likes playing with tons and tons of people. Part of it is company. Part of it is meeting and interacting with people across the globe. Part of it is playing and establishing a "standout" character within a persistant world. A character that lives on if you will.

Super Hero PnP RPG: Champions, Dream Park, etc .... These people want an interactive comic book. They want to build their Super Heroes into super crime fighters (and villains eventually). These people come with a different set of predisposed notions (re: Warspite's 'Brick").

Video Gamer: Someone who likes to shoot stuff .... a lot. Doesn't matter when, where or why. The only thing that matters is how and more importantly, how much.

Who is right? You *ALL* are. The bottom line here is City of Heroes has crossed many lines for many people. I would hazard a guess and say that this MMOG probably has the most amount of MMOG and video game neophytes of any MMOG on the market.

BUT ....

There is something many of you have to realize about an MMOG and it has nothing to do with mechanics or title of a mob or con systems.

MMOGs are persistant worlds. They are meant to be played for quite a bit longer then your average fighting or single player console game. They are meant to allow you to breathe life into your character. To build your character. Not with levels, but in reputation and stature. This is the ONE reason why this game works as an MMOG. It allows you to BECOME a hero. But that part of it is up to you. Not the mechanics of the game. Just like there are annoying posters on this board (glares at Statesman) and well respected posters on this board (beams at Foo007). The game itself works on in a medium that is meant to be used and experienced in a similar fashion.

The problem: The game doesn't do this. More people know me from these boards then they do in game even though I go out of my way to group and help outside people. This is why I personally don't feel heroic. I don't get to *be* heroic to enough people. YOU people, not the countless NPCs who've thanked me for saving their purse.

And just a clue for those out there who aren't getting it .... a super hero has nothing to do with the powers you get or how many minions you can mow down at a clip or under a certain time. A super hero is a super hero because of what that person does with the powers he/she has. If you need a comic book analogy, it's exactly why you can mention Batman and Superman in the same sentence. They both do the most with what they got.

Back to reality for a moment.

This is a video game. While there are many wonderful things that you can do with a video game, it still has very real limitations and scope. Add to that the very real limitations and scope of the development team. When it comes right down to it, they are wage earners. This is their 9 to 5 (heh they wish) job and COH is a commercial enterprise. Short of being funded as a tax write off by The Donald, the bottom is just that ... the bottom line.

To Statesman: There isn't enough in the game. Balance issues and AT tweaks aside, there just isn't enough variety. And I don't mean neat little doors that open and close now in missions. I'll get just as bored (and eventually stop paying) with fighting 3 even con super minions as I will with fighting 50 +L5 minions. I've done 22 story arcs total. I couldn't tell you what half of them were because I didn't read anything other then the title/instructions in the nav bar. If I don't have to read it to complete it, it's just not substansive enough. And there are not enough unique encounters that I can fail (re: Sewer Trial types). If I can complete everything the first time through ..... well where's the challenge. Not just for Trials, but for all content in this game. There always needs to be something I can fail at if I'm not up to the challenge. Finally there aren't enough of the right rewards. Rewards should be rare and unique. That's why they are rewards.

Thanks for listening.

P.S. - Can we get a comic book that actually features Statesman and the Freedom Phalanx as its' main stars? You have a great backstory written for this game (what brings out the best in comics) and pretty much the worst comic ever written (decent art though). I'd like to read about the trials and tribulations of Statesman and company personally. Small pet peeve.

The problem is that this isn't a comic. This is an MMOG based on the comic book genre.

Trivial content (no matter what you title it) is boring in the long term.

And you would enjoy Burning 3 minions (for the poster above) if those 3 minions presented a challenge (tough fight) and reward (XP) equivelant for that challenge.

Or did you just want to spend a year or so annhilating 50 minions at a clip at L50? Because these guys want to keep you in this game for a year or more if possible.

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I thought I'd post here to explain why developers make changes to MMP games. In a nutshell: because they think it'll make the long term enjoyment better.

Human nature often demands immediate gratification. Sometimes, this comes into conflict with the long term enjoyment.

Case in point: much of our zone distribution, spawn placement and mission difficulty is based on a simple supposition. Players should be entertained/challenged by mobs -2 to +2 levels different. A single +2 minion should be REALLY hard - a single -2 minion should be pretty easy. But that's the range that much of the game hangs on. And that works great for levels 1 to 20, in my opinion.

Starting at level 22, when players get S.O. Enhancements, they quickly outstrip their foes. The missions cease to be entertaining, because a +1 mobs are just too easy. Better XP can be found by taking on +4 mobs in zones. Single characters can take on spawns that are intended for many heroes. And there's no place for a maximum sized group to go in order to find a tough and rewarding battle.

In the case of making the higher level game more fun, I want to make the difficulty of the later levels resemble early gameplay. At first, some players will decry "but I can't do what I used to! Ack! I can't solo two +4 bosses anymore?" True - but they'll have fun battling 3 white minions - which is something you can say at level 15, but not at level 35. Long term, the entire game will sparkle once this sort of balance is restored - because so much of the game design hangs upon it.

Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.


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Trying not to sound patronizing, but this is the first by Statesman that really confirms in my mind that he gets what an MMOG is supposed to revolve around.

It might sound simplistic, but 9/10ths of MMOG developers don't get this one simplistic idea.

And more to the point, they are heading their game in the right direction in the broad sense.

Kudos from someone who likes not wasting his time needlessly on a game while ...... errr ..... wasting his time needlessly on a game.

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"Just find a Group" or "Include such and such in your group."

As long as this game is advertised as one that can be played solo, those are not answers to problems/complaints people post in the forums. Please, if your tempted to make one of those responses, think twice. Your not helping and just adding noise that makes it harder to see the serious rsponses, especially in regards to update 2 which is coming.

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Every MMOG should be group based at some point (read as group nessecary).

Otherwise it should be a LAN or single player title.

And why on Earth would you pay a monthly fee for a game that you could solo 100% of the content?

Your point #2 wasn't addressed well but I assume you will address certain Scrapper builds as a seperate issue?

And I'm of the opinion that certain Tanker lines need to be updated first before these changes are made. For instance, Ice and Stone getting stackable armors. Without them, having an AOE taunt in every attack will be suicide for all those that didn't max out Tough/Weave.

There are still some immediate damage issues that need to be addressed (Ice secondary).

Also someone made a great point about Fire Tankers (secondary) getting out of control with a change like this.

And these changes (all of them) are rather moot in the L30+ game unless some radical changes are made with regards to the length of fights in general in the mid to latter game. While I see that you've addressed those (in theory) I still can't picture what you will do to make fights substantially longer without seriously nerfing down AOE damage in general.

I like your ideas on concept, but I feel that Tankers (re: specific Tanker lines) have some more immediate needs.

Well like all Devices builds, this will be greatly effected by the SG fix.

However the "run n' gun" style of play this build is really good for will still be very applicable. You just won't have the total immunity you had before

I highly suggest getting the Fighting pool for Tough and Weave. Slot them both heavily.

My nipple itches.