Kruunch
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Quote:Agro cap doesn't work like that... if you're at the cap any other mobs you Taunt will ignore you until the mobs that are agroed to you either lose agro or die.Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Have you tried? Because that's not how the aggro cap works. If you see a team-mate in trouble, you can taunt his aggro even if you are at the cap. This guy will turn to you, and the guy that you have not touched the longest will ignore you and go for the next guy in his aggro list.
Yes, its possible the next target is the same blaster you trying to save, but in my experience WHEN this happens the ones I loose go to the nearby scrapper when I'm trying to save the faraway debuffing defender.
This is just an argument to lower the brute/scrapper/whatever aggro caps, not increasing tanks. This would have a dangerous side effect of making the game a bit too easy for those ATs, though, because suddenly they just have to worry about only 7 or so foes ever aggroing them.
But you *can* run on over and Footstomp them (Tremor, Fault, Hand Clap, Ice Patch, etc ...) which is the usual way I take care of Tanking over the agro cap.
I personally don't like the idea of having different agro caps for different ATs. There's enough AT specific mechanics in the game as it is (and the point of raising the agro cap is to introduce a new level of challenge, both for the team and the Tanker(s)). -
Quote:Except for rains and aoe patches, I thought all other AOE have either a 5 or 10 target max.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The only thing I can think of with just increasing it (not getting rid of it completely, which introduces the whole 'herd the map' thing again) is this:
It allows other people to really maximize their AoE potential. Right now, with only 17 mobs around the Tanker reliably (I know that you can get more, especially if you've very good, but I'm assuming a 'normal' Tanker in this situation), if you miss two enemies with an AoE, you only have 15 hit.
With 34 enemies around the Tanker, the likelihood of missing 19 enemies and not maximizing the AoE is very slim, unless you're well under the level of the enemy.
Remember that AoEs will continue to check against every enemy in range of the AoE until either it 1) runs out of enemies to check against, or 2) hits the target cap.
I'm not saying it's a great argument against it, just a potential one. -
Quote:I can jump into the middle of a pack of 7 with literally any of my Controllers, Blasters, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors and MMs.Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Like beauty, this must be in the eye of the beholder. I jump into mobs with my Tanks and take alphas with no worries, something I can't say for any other AT I have, including Brutes and Scrappers. In WoW, teams wipe facing the amount of mobs a single tank can handle at the aggro cap. I sure feel heroic with my Tanker, standing there facing that.
Dunno who you team with, but that's plain silly.
In Chess, a Knight can move two spaces over and once space to either side. What on earth does that have to do with the price of tea in China?!
If seven mobs makes you feel heroic, wouldn't it stand to reason 30 mobs would make you feel SUPER-heroic?
And I can solo Diabolique on a Scrapper ... something I'm willing to bet you can't do on your tank from the way you describe your playing habits.Quote:And then there are AVs. Last night, Numina's evil counterpart, Diabolique, was damaging squishier teammates that got too close to her, but didn't do too much to me. At one point, a Defender got KB'd back through a portal (this was an Oranbega map). Hilarious, but it sure made me feel tough to stand there and take all that when they couldn't. Tanks are tough, tanks are heroic. 17 mobs is already a ridiculous amount to have focused on you to the exclusion of everyone else on your team, if you think about it. Anything more really does approach the stupidity of mobs crowding in to be burned to defeat in some crates.
That's the whole point ... easy fix and it seperates us from Scrappers that much more.Quote:Again, if tanks need something, it's NOT at the aggro cap. It's with their other abilities, and maybe where they are infringed upon by other ATs.
I have a feeling people hear the word "herding" and all of the MMO morally righteous (is that the most useless crowd of all or what?!) crowd get their hackles up about the "purity" of the game and the integrity of the fight and heaven forbid this might lead to farming, or power levelling or some other such evil and morally reprehensible act (
)
The bottom line is you could still run around and marvel at your 7 mob herd all you like. This change would not change that in the least. It just might make the game a little more interesting for people who aren't satisfied with online Tic-Tac-Toe. -
Quote:Well don't make us guess ... things like what would be frowned upon?Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Simply increasing the cap lets tankers do things solo I doubt the devs want. Of course, increasing it at all, even my teamed mechanic, probably allows tankers to do things that might be frowned upon.
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Quote:Nooooo ... Fire is easily the most damaging of the Controller sets and paired with Kin, exponentially so.Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
My mid's dont wanna import it - weird, but a rough gues this is all plain based on /kin.
In that line, i would pick any other primairy of troller (or even a defender/corr) and they would possibly do the same. The 'succes' is pure due kin, grab a /rad or even /storm (dunno if that even is viable), and suddenly u can scratch quite a few options. (perm.hasten, speed, cap dmg).
I have a 45 Ill/Kin and while decent, it doesn't have anywhere near the kill speed of a Fire/Kin. It's the synergy of both that makes it such a great damage set.
Back in the day of the 9 monkeys, a Fire/Rad was really nice (still not nearly as disgusting as a Fire/Kin but certainly less button mashing involved). Today however the difference is staggering. -
Quote:Spines/Regen would be easier to solo then Spines/FA (which builds late and is squishier then Regen).Originally Posted by aizono
Hi,
I'm looking to solo a scrapper to 50, with minimal/no farming.
Just wandering whether /FA or /Regen? spines is my defo pri
Also, links to builds would be helpful!
Thanks,
Aiz
Here's a link to the tougher version of a Spines/Fire Scrapper though (big time farming toon).
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=183832 -
Quote:Red Fortune is a crap ton cheaper.Originally Posted by Dawn
Which defensive set is better?
My tanker is now 48, so i've started to buy sets..
I've already slotted 2 defensive powers with luck of gambler because to me its seems better than red fortune (+regeneration, + health, + acc..) but i've seens a lot of SD tanker that use red fortune sets... why??
The only good bonus i see from RF is the + recharge effect.. but i dont think its enough to say RF is better than luck of gambler..
Otherwise yeah go with LotG. -
Quote:I can do all that on my SD/DM Tanker now .... but it's not a 20mil build either (more like 300mil at this point).Originally Posted by NeonPeon
The fact that fire/kins can self buff speed and damage lets the build focus on other things. I don't think tank, scrapper or blaster archtypes have a build that can cap S/L defense, cap damage, come close to HP cap, capable of achieving permahasten and do it for under 20 million. This sample build uses minimum level IOs to achieve everything I listed.
For the low end cost farmer, I don't think there is anything close to a fire/kin... unless it is a something else controler/kin.
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Quote:I can get behind a 34 mob agro cap. At least it would be more ... heroic ... looking then what we currently have.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch,
Just for the record, I, like another poster above, would be in favor of maybe doubling the aggro limit for Tankers, but am not in favor of removing the aggro cap for them all together.
I think that 34 mobs would be a good point for Tankers, as it does allow them to hold the attention of two spawns just in case. However, I am a little bit worried about how this would affect Tanker stacking, since I do see that as a decent concern on this board. This is mainly because in exactly the cases where it's good to have a second Tanker now, you'd be removing or minimizing that need.
I really don't believe in the Tanker stacking issue (as stated previously) so I don't think raising the agro cap (or getting rid of it) is something that will better/worsen this. However if I were to make the debate, having two Tankers pulling a 34 cap limit with a third Tanker on "wrangling" duty for strays would be pretty uber looking
Sorciere: Yes and no. Back in the I1 days of herding, my group routinely pulled 80+ mobs and did CoT portal farms (don't know what the mob count was but the room was wall to wall Behemoths ... literally) and we didn't have much of a problem with performance (no more then we do now with double packs in a full group that is).
However having said that, that was before they upgraded their graphics engine with the PhysX rule set, so I don't know how that would work now. I do know that CoH previously had an 80 entity clipping limit so that while you could pull over 80 mobs you would only actually see 80 mobs (minus the number of players in the group and wandering mobs nearby) and watch new ones materialize as others were defeated. -
Quote:Ah true ... its very dependant upon the builds we're talking about and I certainly wouldn't recommend a Blapper build for farming (especially over a Scrapper). However my Fire/Dev Blaster can keep mobs in place (Caltrops) and disintegrate bosses (usually takes two full cycles of my AOEs (15 secs?)) and generally doesn't have a problem surviving salvos from the pack, between his defense and ranged attacks being generally weaker then melee. I definitely feel more comfortable on my Scrappers although I would say while my Spines/Fire Scrapper is a faster farmer, the Fire/Dev Blaster does it more safely and almost can match the speed. My Dark/Inv Scrapper can snooze through boss farms but doesn't do them with the speed of either the aforementioned.Originally Posted by Obitus
Well, there are any number of approaches possible, and any number of preferred farming environments. Perhaps my recent experience has exaggerated the importance of boss farms, because those are the only so-called farming maps I've run recently.
That said, if you're not fighting something that will melt in the first salvo, then the fully ranged approach may run into problems keeping the mobs in place for easy AoEing.
Mostly I was looking at the question from the perspective of the two builds the poster specifically mentioned -- Fire/Fire and Fire/Mental. Both have compelling reasons to enter melee range, the former because one of his best AoE powers is a melee power, and the latter both because his second (or third, depending on how you look at it) best AoE attack is in melee, and because Drain Psyche, the +regen/+recovery power mentioned, is PBAoE.
Totally agree.Quote:My theory, in short, is you almost have to choose S/L DEF over ranged to maximize AoE damage potential for farming, because if you pick an exclusively S/L-damage mission, then you're covered from all positions. Also, if you are going to dash back and forth from melee to cone range for maximum AoE DPS, then flying is less efficient than jumping or running.
Any of my toons that don't have mez protection are usually well stocked with Break Frees and this never really presents a problem except with the oddball case of timing between getting mezzed and breaking free (if I happen to catch another salvo).Quote:The flaws in the S/L +DEF approach, for non-farming scenarios -- and these were foremost in my mind when I wrote the quote you cited -- are that:
A) Nearly half of your DEF shuts off when you're mezzed, because you're relying heavily on an APP toggle power.
True but Scrappers run into this problem as well ... both suffer from squishy syndrome at the lower levels. Change mindsets up, especially if you don't exemp a lot is sometimes tough for the player to do (I know it is for me).Quote:B) By the same token, any time you join a team doing exemplared content, you're likely to lose nearly half your DEF.
True but in my experience Hibernate pretty much takes care of this .... *especially* for group farming and/or normal content. Hibernate is godly imo.Quote:C) Apropos of SynergyX's theory, you cannot layer meaningful amounts of RES underneath your S/L DEF on such a Blaster build, because the choice of the Cold APP Shield precludes you from taking the Fire, Force, or Electrical shields.
I can definitely agree with this ... there are far more Blaster builds that this would apply to then there aren't.Quote:Thus, for the general game, I would, and have, gone with the all-ranged, ranged-soft-cappd, Hovering Blaster -- and I agree it's a very solid choice, but it isn't without its holes. As with the previous poster, though, I don't think there's any definitive way to prove whether the range advantage compensates for the much more robust collection of mitigation powers offered to Scrappers -- and an all-ranged Blaster almost always pays a significant opportunity cost, because many of Blasters' best attacks are melee.
Generally speaking true, but again within terms of farming only I can see some Blaster builds (Fire/Dev being one of them) that can be superior to equivelant Scrapper builds in that they both survive but the Blaster in some cases can farm faster.Quote:Either way, while we can debate the relative survivability of tricked out Blaster builds and SO Scrapper builds -- there should't be any question that equivalently tricked out Scrapper builds are far, far sturdier.
But having said that, I agree that this is not normally the case.
Trollers have alpha blockers which make them potential Tanker replacements, so while not specifically tanking they function in the same capacity which makes them as "tough" as a Tanker or Scrapper even though from a HP/Defense/Resist standpoint they generally aren't.Quote:Yeah, and you can come close on some Controllers/Defenders, after a fashion. I guess what those builds do wouldn't be fully analogous to tanking as the term is technically understood, but in a pinch such a build can carry even a bad team.
Part of the reason I like PuGs, despite the bad rap they get on the forums. I like trying to turn lemons into lemonade.
And Fire/Kins are just sick ... especially well built ones. I've yet to see another AT that has *that* big of a difference from one build to another.
And I enjoy PUGs mainly to see the good and the bad operate. I learn from both and usually get a giggle out of it to boot. -
Quote:Ah ha ... didn't think of that. Sounds like a winner.Originally Posted by Reptlbrain
The -rech stacked from spines might be making no attacks ready, inspiring the critter AI to try to flee.
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Quote:While you're technically correct due to HPs only, I wouldn't say this is precisely true and in many circumstances far from true. The reason being is that most farming Blasters are going to have Hover/Fly and any Blaster that is running soft capped S/L, will have the ranged advantage over Scrappers which adds quite a bit to survivability. From a pure farming standpoint.Originally Posted by Obitus
A Fire/Fire Blaster (or really, any Blaster, but particularly anything Fire/* or */Fire) cannot "stay alive even better than" a well-built Scrapper -- except in isolated circumstances. You can, for instance, cap out S/L DEF on such a Blaster fairly easily (relying largely on Frozen Armor from the Cold Mastery EPP), but the second you head into content that presents different challenges, you're mortal again -- still better off by far than your basic Blaster, but nowhere near as sturdy as your average Scrapper, much less an equivalently tricked-out one.
I agree in that you can't make a Tanker replacement Blaster, whereas you can with certain Scrapper builds for virtually all other content. -
Quote:Not sure ... Quills has a terror component but its set to 0 iirc.Originally Posted by SkylineGTR
Thanks!
In order to gain in rech and other bonuses, Lunge had to be ignored and Impale got to be a set mule for the time being. I've used a Spines/Regen for years and when I farmed rarely did I use Lunge. However, I do feel the hurt a little with Impale. Might test out some other sets for it. As far as Burn goes, I just can't bring myself to use it without some kind of Immob. Guess I've been spoiled with my SS/Fire, eh? The KD proc is fun and still helps a little since Spines tends to make enemies run some. Or maybe it's just Quills causing that?
Might just be fleeing on low life? (or you using Caltrops?) -
Quote:You can soft capped melee defense and get around 30% or so ranged without breaking the bank (depending on what you consider breaking the bank is of course). I tend not to worry about AOE defense all that much (which can come back to bite in certain circumstances).Originally Posted by Furburger
I'm building my fire tank for +def. Just a question out there for all you fire tankers out there. What are your Def numbers???
Having built for both typed and positional, a smarter way to go on a Fire Tanker would be to pony up the bucks for Kinetic Combats and soft cap S/L defense instead. That will cover all positions for 90%+ of the content in the game ... but it's a lot more expensive and you'll lose a ton of recharge. -
Wow talk about your derails.
You guys seriously need to save your posts, reread them next year and kick yourselves for being such dumb *****. -
Quote:Never claimed to have one ... but I farm with a couple of them and I know how fast they farm ... and how fast a Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker can farm. They win ... and its not even a contest. My Spines/Fire Scrapper farms faster then them. So even less of a contest.Originally Posted by Coldmed
krunchs point was my tank cant do squat against a fire.kin..which apparently he doesnt even have now
so now hes switching toons...well since scrappers are funny as farmers too now..
And this isn't bragging ... its just numbers. Look at the builds ... they just pour out more damage over a wide range of targets. So I'm not sure why this is even a debate.
The claim to fame that your Tanker can make (any Tanker for that matter) is that you can farm more difficult stuff then either my Scrapper or their Fire/Kins. That I wouldn't argue.
You can't spit without hitting a Fire/Kin today ... if you ever get a personality transplant you might try to find a group that will actually put up with you and see what some other builds can do.Quote:
ill be glad to watch you die in my mission krunnch...but i think its funny that your advice is worthless when you dont even HAVE one..at least my experience is from actual EXPERIENCE...not just random talk from you you "think"
P.S. - I haven't seen a min/lt farm I couldn't afk through yet.
Tell you what, I'll write a post up with a schedule, time and place and we can have a regular spectator crowd (maybe even Sarrate can be on the stop watch). We can have sign ups for the best seats. Cool?Quote:and like i said....its not a regular mish..its not boss farming...its just minions and lts.
but youll soon find out for yourself son.
hope your up for the palace too....cause we going there as well...
maybe we can make it 3 events..
one is a.e...2nd is storm palace..and ill come up with a 3rd one as well...farmers challenage it'll be called.
Again ... where did I say I had a Fire/Kin? And I'm not sure why you insist on calling me son when I obviously have socks that are older then you.Quote:oh and krunch i wont bother talking about how you lamed up about the fire/kin and changed your toon...however you got 2 months to .l. one..you can get it in two days so get to work son. now that your on the block...put up or get out.
I'm pretty sure most people know the point of farming ... just not sure what the point of this post was. Your epeen that dainty?Quote:oh and the reason i use a.e. is faster lvling...when you HAVE money...you buy them at whatever price..you dont rely on drops..thats why
this is about farming or p.ling..the POINT of it...is to lvl as fast as possible not get drops.which is why lots of people use a.e. farming...its just simply faster then boring old safe slow missions
oh and ill be glad to frap it all too.. -
Quote:I don't have a Fire/Kin ... I have a Spines/Fire Scrapper ... and I'll be happy to embarass your Tanker in a farm.Originally Posted by Coldmed
well only one way to prove it krunch
my fire tank vs your fire/kin.
i have my farm mish that i will let you into and we'll see how you like it...no worries though its only lt's and miniions...nothing else.
but ill can tell you you wont survive it
soon as test opens up we can head on over and try it.
then when you return from your hospital trip maybe your fire/kin can show me how much better you are at farming the storm palace -
Quote:100% agree.Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Overall, I don't have any big issues with your suggestion.
The tanks that think they can herd an entire map will learn quickly that the game isn't designed to let you do that anymore. I'm sure there are exceptions, but almost everybody will fail. Even if a tank can herd an entire map, keeping all that aggro once the AoEs start will be another matter entirely. Gauntlet and taunt auras have a limited range, so once you get 50(random number) or so enemies on you some of them will be out of aura and gauntlet range and people will be able to pull them off. Taunt can only help so much with this when dealing with massive amounts of enemies. So maintaining aggro might be impossible with mobs that large.
I don't think herding will make a big comeback because most people seem to find it boring(IME). Plus it's just not very efficient. Sure some tanks will still insist on it, but they will be laughed off of good(IMO) teams. -
Quote:Errr right .... I wasn't arguing that point and totally agree with yours (I'll try not to mention that we do full spawn L52 boss farms without any Tankers right now ... oh drat).Originally Posted by Obitus
Split tanking is desirable in almost any PuG AE Boss mission. There are simply way too many people who don't know about (or can't grasp) the notion of an aggro cap -- and many of those maps have overlapping spawns.
Short of heavily IOed builds, there also aren't any Scrappers who can be reasonably expected to tank those missions.
In short, in the very environment you seem most prone to enjoy, Tankers are more useful now than they've been in a very, very long time. Singular tankers, multiple tankers -- all more useful.
Now I have to get back to working on my explain-the-aggro-cap macro...
But yeah you're totally on target ... lifting the agro cap won't diminish this ... in fact I could see 3 and 4 Tanker teams (or even all Tanker teams) coming into vogue (more of the stuff and grins factor then any form of efficiency). That's why I said I don't see Tanker stackability now or later as an issue. -
Quote:Talking about putting words in people's mouths (amazing the amount of hyprocrisy that resides on these boards) ....Originally Posted by Alabaster12
As I'm saying for the 3rd time now. I don't honestly care if people farm, however if that is the only available content that is being done besides soloing then that is what drives me away. I don't play games to judge how others decide to play, and quite simply I won't even shed the smallest tear if I decided to move on to another game (since there are thousands out there) so I don't hold nearly as much of a vested interest in this as a lot of others seem to. I'm just telling you that the current lack of anything outside of AE farms is making me play less. A simple statement that doesn't mean take farming away, or that farmers are ruining the game, or anything else that you want to infer with it, it simply means exactly what I said.
As you said choice. Right now the choices for anything outside of an AE farm are a lot more limited than they were. You see that as a good thing, and I don't. Simple as that.
Ok so to clarify, you're saying you can't get a group outside of the AE missions right now and that's making you lean toward leaving the game.
And somehow lifting the agro cap will excellerate this process? -
Quote:A really mediocre built Fire/Kin will out farm any Tanker.Originally Posted by dave_p
That's also not true. I normally hate AE farming, but on a dare, I followed in a Fire/Ice tank into one of his AE farms w/my Ill/Kin, who's not even close to a farm build, but has high def (not quite capped once SI in suppressed to 1/2). Since PA quickly hits the aggro cap in a room w/like 200 mobs packed in, that's completely out of the equation, and Phanty pretty much died instantly, but I survived a really long time while pumping out FS'ed Fireballs as soon as they recharged, and only really died cuz I got careless during an unlucky string of hits.
Now, obviously, the tank doesn't have to worry about such an unlucky string, which you're going to run into sooner or later, but a properly built Fire/Kin could prolly farm w/the best tanks w/just a few trips back from the hosp, which is really very close anyway. And the higher damage output (FS'ed HF, Fireball, Cages & Bonfire) would prolly make up for most/all of that travel & zoning time.
Unless you're being silly and farming EBs or something equally as ridiculous. -
Quote:PUHHHHHHHHHHHHleeezOriginally Posted by Coldmed
not true at all..
in the ae fire/kins cant do half of what fire tanks can do....
maybe regular farms they can do as good but not in the a.e....in 90% of the farms in a.e. they would die within seconds.
also wp/ss isnt great for tanks....however a ss/wp brute with full fury is...gettting the aoe from gw patron and your all set.
with that said...fire/fire has been and will be the #1 farm/pl tank since issue 2 when it was wolve farms,freaks farms,ninja farms to date!
6 aoes possible on a fire/fire tank....no other combo has it. plus you add in f.e. and b.u. for almost 180% damage increase..yeah its good.
i still solo farm....everyone but me doorsits...in what can be farmed in the a.e...most goes past the aggro limit so its better they sit.
My 200mil influence Spines/Fire Scrapper would so run circles around your billion influence Fire Tanker in an AE farm.
And my epeen is bigger too
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Quote:Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
The agro cap is in place to help cut down on farming entire maps at once. I seriously doubt it will be stopped to help people that want to farm.
If you want to be a Tank and not a short bus Scrapper, take Taunt.
I'm strongly against reverting to the days that entire maps of warwolves are herded into a dumpster.
I see have seen tankers herd in non-farm missions. Herding a group or a room is different than herding a whole map.
Ok .. I'm open to compromise .. how about lifting the agro cap to 40? Would that satisfy?
Keep in mind that most Tankers today couldn't handle that kind of spawn. While IOs are nice, they aren't I1 either. -
Quote:Well no, seriously what part of other people farming draws you away from the game?Originally Posted by Alabaster12
I guess I can be crystal clear here...
Others enjoyment of this game is irrelevant to whether I personally enjoy the game. It doesn't bother me if they enjoy it, but it doesn't help/hurt my decision on whether I actually enjoy it.
I fail to see how repeating the same mission 1000 times, or sitting around gathering an entire room is in any way changing the status quo.
I can understand why you're confused, you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say at all.
Is it that you can't get groups to do normal content now? Or is it the idea of farming in general? What?
I find that most games where farms become ultra popular are due to lack of sustainable recurring content (which CoH is certainly guilty of). Content in this game has always been its Achilles Heel. While lifting the agro cap won't change this, it does bring back a method of making the content more interesting (to some) who wish to participate. At least they'd have the choice (and choice is good in my experience). -
Quote:So basically you don't want anything that changes the status quo?Originally Posted by Alabaster12
I didn't/don't do it. Unfortunately it became the expected behavior since players will typically always take the path of least resistance. Once it became the expected behavior (which would happen as soon as it was either possible or beneficial again) thats when I lose interest.
It's the same reason why I'm playing less and less these days. I'm not going to cry about farms, and obviously they are popular, I just have no interest whatsoever in participating in them for virtually the exact same reasons I dislike herding. Once all other content is no longer being used and people are "only" farming, that's when I disappear.
It's the exact same reason I quit that other gigantic MMO once it became a grindfest that required you to kill the exact same 10 bosses over and over and over week after week to get everyone their "epics".
I realize that might put me in the minority in an MMO context, but I have no interest whatsoever in grinding away doing exactly the same thing over and over and over and over. There is a big difference to me between doing a similar thing, and literally the exact same thing.
I suppose if you and others enjoy that, that is great, and I'm not saying you should stop, or they should stop people from doing it, just that it drives me away.
Or are you saying that you don't like CoH anymore because more people are enjoying themselves now more then at any other point in CoH since I1?
Or does the idea of people actually enjoying a game really bother you?
I'm confused.