Kruunch

Fair enough .... I'll see if I can show you different.

As far as your opinion on whether herding is tanking ... shrug. I think you're just picking nits at that point (especially after so carefully explaining to me how I can't have possibly done it in the first place). You could make the arguement that pulling more then 16 while knowing only 16 will be attacking you is exploitive. But I've never been too morally concerned about exploiting weak programming and/or game design as some others seem to be (why that would be a moral issue I have no idea).

On another note, I've pulled whole maps with my Fire/Dark Corruptor by throwing Darkest Night on a mob at the end of a map (warehouse map or something similar) and then running back to the front of the map. The mob chases and agros everything that comes into range of the toggle. Now I've never physically counted how many it brings and there are always stragglers left behind but it's felt like more then 16. I will check on that as well.

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I personally found CE invaluable at low levels. It meant I could actually tank. As for staying alive it wasn't a problem with some support. It's not hard softcapping your defense at level 15 in a big team, odds are someone can top you off. CE gave me less end issues since I could just stand around doing nothing and still be one of the most useful people in the group.

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I tend not to make my suggestions based around what my team composition *might* be. Virtue and Freedom might be a bit easier team wise due to population but on Justice finding a team at all can be challenging, much less trying to hand pick a team to suit your needs.

If you know you'll be running with a regular group then that's a different story (and usually doesn't apply to newbie Tankers in my experience).

Edited for the heck of it to procrastinate on rebuilding our email server cluster.

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One point I'd like to interject here for the OP and anyone else who is having survival issues with an Invuln:

Invuln is a hybrid defense/resistance set. As such, it depends as much on good defense as it does on strong resists--especially when it comes to FCEN damage.

Now, we're probably all clear on how Invincibility works, but just in case, it gives you a defense buff for every target in its aura, up to 10. The aura is basically a melee-range aura, so in order to max out your defense, you have to have 10 targets in melee range.

The thing is, for defense to be of any use, it has to be there BEFORE you get attacked. Willpower's regen buffs can come a second or two afterward and still do just as much good for you, but with Invincibility, the buff has to be there BEFORE you take the alpha.

This means jumping right into the middle of the most dangerous spawns.

Now, most tankers I've played with who are iffy on survival tend to approach a spawn hesitantly, maybe trying to pull with taunt, or edging their way up to a spawn in hopes of breaking up the alpha srike by only aggroing half the spawn at a time, or whatever.

If you are playing an Invuln, this is a huge, huge mistake.

For an invuln tank to be successful, you have to be decisive and very confident that your defense will come through for you. And you have to try to get as many targets in melee range as you possibly can, before they wake up and start attacking you.

If you are playing this way, there is really very little in the game that you can't handle. And if so, I'd chalk it up to overpowered custom critters in AE missions.

Buf if you're having trouble in regular PvE too, then either your build is very wonky, or you're not being decisive enough when it comes to leveraging Invincibility.

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Excellent post.

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Well, I will say this about CE. It CAN attract more aggro than you can handle if you're not careful. I know this from personal experience on Tanker Tuesdays... when I have it on, I'll sometimes die because I'm picking up more aggro than I can handle. With it off, I'm still getting attacks on me, etc., but not more than I can handle.

From what I can see and know of it, CE makes you into an aggro magnet- more so than the other auras in-game. Still useful, but an Ice Tanker should take care with it until they get their defenses up to par, at least on large teams.

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Bless your soul.

What I don't think a lot of Tanker vets understand is that they know how to manage agro and its become so ingrained that to them, having a taunt aura at L12 is still survivable. Your average newbie Tanker isn't going to have that same experience because of lack of experience (even if he/she is a good player). It's one of those nuances of tanking (especially at early levels) that Tanker vets go on about but then fail to acknowledge later.

At least that's how it seems to me.

Sarrate: Sigh ... yay for internet communications.

1) Whether the mobs are all attacking me or not, I can physically herd a bunch of mobs together (over 16) *if* the mob packs are close enough together, and then fight them all down.

2) I said solo tanked because in that example I solo tanked (don't know what the misunderstanding is here).

3) I said to do the samething in a group, the group has to work together (this would be different example). Yes you won't hold agro on all the mobs at the sametime BUT an active tank can aborb the alpha, after which the group does its thing. By the time the second alpha (beta?) comes up, there are tons less mobs (still might be more then the 16 cap though) and the active tank will have rounded said mobs up the same way.

To do this and to be precise (on my Inv Tanker): I run into a pack and KO Blow the center mob (this punchvokes or at the very least proximity agros the nearby mobs) absorbing that packs alpha. I then move to the next pack and Footstomp (this maxes my agro cap (assuming large packs of 10-15 mobs)). The punchvoke has worn off the prior mobs but they still follow due to proximity at this point (they are not past their tether). I Taunt the next pack over to me (corner pulling if necessary to pack em all in). This gives me 3 packs of 10-15 per pack (30-45 mobs) tightly packed. THEN my group goes to work.

If you want, I'd be glad to show it to you in action.

I don't think I could be any more clear then that.

P.S. - And before you try this (if you do) and get your group creamed, make sure they know to attack in waves so if they grab agro it will only be from a few mobs and not the entire pack. You attack, you draw the alpha, the group attacks, you attack, drawing the next alpha and so forth. What I can't do is pull 50 mobs across the map like the old fashioned door missions (which is why the agro cap was put into place incidentally).

P.P.S. - Just because someone is going to bring it up ... even if a mob has peeled off of me, if they've attacked, the attack timer still counts for the new agro ... which means they peel off but still wait for their attack to cycle ... this is how you manage more then 16 mobs as a Tanker and a group.

P.P.P.S. - You also realize that the early videos of mine and Havoc's were one of the main reasons for the agro cap? *ducks*

Hope this clarified.

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If ya'll want to really add something to the debate, then go to player questions, where I put this after I put it here, not thinking correctly. Sorry for the inconvience. Please don't put stuff like popcorn either, put real advice, thanks.

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I think you should go play each primary and then give your own informed opinion.

And then you'll realize how silly your question is.

That's about the best real advice I can give you.

That and asking which primary is best without including a secondary in your debate is pointless.

That's like asking which tire is best without stating on what car its going on.

*takes his popcorn and goes home*

Popcorn is going to be a primary when villains can switch sides so

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I assume the average and don't put IO's into my discussion other than to note that it will change the shortcomings of a given AT combo if they get to that area.

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Yes. TY Kruunch. This is why casuals like me love your posts.

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My pleasure ... sometimes stepping away from the game from time to time adds a fresher perspective

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What do you mean by "taunt cap"? Are you saying that you can have 30 mobs attacking you at one time, but cannot keep that many taunted (ie: they'll peel as soon as anybody sneezes)? If you are, you're mistaken. Someone brought up the aggro cap a couple months ago and I tested it. That screenshot has 18 rikti monkies, 17 around me and one taunted at range - solo. The 18th would not attack me. After I killed one, the 18th turned and attacked me.

At any given time, you cannot have more than 17 mobs attacking you at once. If you lose aggro on something (say to another player) then extra mobs will be able to fill that back to 17, but never any higher. If you can prove me incorrect (screenshot or preferably a demo), please do.

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Just as a note: the aggro cap is per player, a team can theoretically aggro 136 critters, but only 17 will pay attention to each player. Anything over the cap, goes to the blaster (who the defender may be doing a better job of protecting than you are.)

It's easy for a tanker to think he is actually the center of such a team's aggro if buffs are keeping everyone else alive.

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You know for people who post as much as you guys do you really ought to take the time to read before replying.

Did I not say solo tanked 50 mobs?

BTW you're wrong ... there are ways to keep dozens of mobs entertained as a Tanker in a group. And now this may come as a shocker ... if you and your group work together at it.

As far as CE goes, its easy enough for anyone to tell if they like it at early levels. Just make one build with and one without and there ya go.

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What you fail to understand is that the majority of players in this game don't fully IO (or even at all) their characters with sets.

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Please provide evidence to back this up. The majority of people that I know in the game do slot at least some sets. Sure, not everyone is going for purple sets, but I know of very few people who don't try to get at least a few sets in their builds.

You don't need to farm to get decent sets on your character. Heck, my completely soloed-to-level 48 Stalker is most IOed out. And my Level 39 Tanker only has a few non-set IOs in his build. I've never farmed with either of those characters, but used drops, the market (not gaming the market, just posting for recipes), merits, and a few tickets to do it.


I'd say that even the average casual player at least assumes some IO slotting in their builds. And while positing that they will only use SOs is fine, I'd say it's far from the truth of what will happen. Even using generic IOs will change a build up.

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I info people I group with. Very very few have set bonuses listed. Of the ones that do, they are very few.

The only people that I see that consistantly have large number of sets are those that play everyday and/or have been playing consistantly for quite some time.

And I ask.

(Justice server to be exact).

/popcorn

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You shouldn't need more power slots, really. If you have survivability problems with that much mitigation, something else is wrong.

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My migration is fine against most foes. But when meeting fireclowns or ice zombies or necromancer elves and whatever else there is in the AE, I go down. When I play offtank to the Granite tanker I see them walk through it all, as if it was nothing, as if their resistances and defenses were capped or at least very close. I'd really love to be able to boost my own resistances and defenses to that level.

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This reminds me of the movie Coming to America.

Customer: I was at a restaurant and the waiter brought my soup so I asked him to try it.

Waiter: Sir is there something wrong with your soup?

Customer: Just try the soup.

Waiter: Sir I can bring you another soup if you prefer.

Customer: Would you please just try the soup!

Waiter: Ok sir .... where's the spoon?

Customer: Ah ha!

Gonna be hilarious when MMs replace Tankers, Scrappers AND Brutes.

And for that matter .... every other AT.

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Kruunch, I think your problem here is that you don' t really realize how powerful IO sets bonuses are. I get a 20% defense bonus to all positions from those, that's like having a personal bubbler. I've got over 2k hit points, that's more than a base Tanker. Lastly, if you count Siphon Life as regeneration (it pretty much is) I regenerate 78 HP per second, comparable to a willpower Tanker with 7 mobs in RttC.

An IO'd out Tanker puts my scrapper to shame. But one with SO's is a wimp compared him.

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Believe me I understand *perfectly* how well IO's can make your Tanker studly.

What you fail to understand is that the majority of players in this game don't fully IO (or even at all) their characters with sets. Players that farm and have multiple 50s and/or generally like the number crunching involved in min/maxxing sure. But CoH has always been more casual player oriented and more casual players tend not to go out of their way to do overly repetitive things (like farming).

They just roll up new toons and ask questions like "Shields or Invuln?". Without a qualifier I assume the average and don't put IO's into my discussion other than to note that it will change the shortcomings of a given AT combo if they get to that area.

Fair enough?

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I'm on the Virtue server. And I don't have Mid's, but here's my build. Level 34 now, after levelling once after posting the original post:

Jab - 4 slots, 1 acc, 1 end red, 2 rech
Resist Physical Damage - 3 slots, all resist
Temporary Invulnerability - 5 slots, 3 resist, 1 end red, Impervium Unique +resist psionic
Dull Pain - 5 slots - 2 heal, 3 rech
Resist Elements - 3 slots, all resist
Unyielding - 4 slots, 3 resist, 1 end red
Taunt - 3 slots, Triumphant Insult IO set
Resist Energies - 3 slots, all resist
Hurdle - 1 slot, jump
Health - 1 slot, heal
Combat Jumping - 3 slots, all defense
Stamina - 3 slots, all end modification
Invincibility - 4 slots, 3 defense, 1 end red
Super-Jump - 1 slot, jump
Tough hide - 3 slots, all defense
Boxing - 2 slots, 1 acc, 1 rech
Tough - 2 slots, 1 resist, 1 Aegis Unique +resist/+mez
Weave - 4 slots, 3 defense, 1 end red

In addition to that my brawl is also 2 slotted, since it's a common attack in my very small attack chain. This makes my defense in around 20 against all attacks (except psionic, where it's only 11). My resist is almost capped for lethal and smashing (88-89%), my resists against other things is around 31%.

And while 70% of the damage in the game is S/L and I have no problems tanking that, it's against the groups that use dark or energy or fire or cold that I get destroyed utterly and completely.

Anyway, thank you for the guide, CMA, I'll take a look at that. Those many sets just look like they could be very expensive. :/ For instance the reactive armor set costs 4 mill for the end/res and 5 mill for the res, meaning each of the 5 sets will cost like 10 mill each.

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Ok a couple of things:

1) Your build is horrible. Not to worry ... you can respec.

2) Part of why your build is horrible is your lack of offense. I understand about making a team built character but if you're going down because it takes your team forever to kill mobs because you aren't really factoring into that equation, then you're not doing your team any favor.

3) You have some really off slotting choices (1 end red; 2 recharge in Jab?!)

4) This is a practical joke isn't it?

5) Make sure your SO's (at least for your defenses) are green when you can.

6) If you find yourself constantly face planting, be smarter about your pulls. Stock up on purple (defense) inspirations and greens (heals).

7) Even with the build as bad as it is, looking at it there is nothing that isn't Psi that should be killing you at L33 before you can hit Dull Pain. The only thing I could think of is that someone is telling you to herd and you're biting off more then you can chew. That and you have no mitigation from your secondary due to not having taken any of its powers basically. Your secondary is a big part of what makes a Tanker.

8) My god man, respec as fast as humanly possible.

9) Is this a pacifistic build concept? Just curious.

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Kruunch's post is pretty good overall, but I have several points of disagreement:

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you have to be wary of the early toggles you don't need yet (CE and Icicles).

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I strongly disagree with the CE comment. It's Ice's aggro aura, and considering how poorly Gauntlet functions at low levels, I wouldn't trust it to hold aggro. Besides being an aggro aura, it also has a 14% dmg debuff (resisted by mob resistance) and a whopping 32% recharge debuff, which is not insignificant.


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For soloing/small groups CE is fairly worthless given the endurance it costs to run pre-Stamina. In large groups CE will just get the Tanker killed repeatedly.

Taunt auras aren't really necessary until you start taking big groups *when* you're capable of taking big groups. I'm of the opinion that they're not necessary at all for a decent Tanker but all Tanker primaries have some taunt aura built into it somewhere.

BTW at L31 my Ice Tanker still doesn't run CE (respecced out of it at L22) and holds agro just fine in full groups.

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This is probably because of the typed defense rather than the situational defense that Shields gets.

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I'm not sure why you say Shield's defense is situational, I consider positional defense to be stronger overall compared to typed. The big reason is it only has two holes: unpositional psi and autohit attacks (mostly non-existant now). Ice's typed defense has a hole to Fire/Cold/Psi/Toxic (with cold being covered by its 90% res). Further, the def gap between Ice and Shield is only 2-3%, or the amount of def that CJ grants.

I'm not saying Shield is more survivable at low levels (Ice has tools like CE / Hoarfrost), but the defense itself isn't the reason, imo.


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Let me rephrase ... with Frozen Armor and Hoarfrost you have most of the tools you need to develop a young Ice Tanker pre-20 while mitigating a lot of Shield's endurance woes because you need two toggles to accomplish about the samething for the average mobs you will be fighting in those level ranges (this doesn't include extremes like Posi's TF).

Shields defense outshines Ice's after L20s (your arguement of positional being better then typed being correct here) on a toggle basis (with Energy Absorbtion I don't believe it does).

Remember that this is specifically talking about lower levels. Now having said that (and to contradict myself above) I was running CE at these levels when I originally levelled through so that may have been part of the greater survivability issue. However many times I turned it off when not in any decent sized group (which was most of the time). When I did turn it on for larger groups I swallowed a ton of purples / greens to keep myself upright and many times that didn't help me from face planting.

Note: As a young Tanker, be smart and don't jump into packs just because you think that's what Tankers are supposed to do ... corner pull, run and gun, Port Foe is an excellent tool if you plan on going the Teleport route, and so forth. Be smart about being squishy.

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You haven't lived until you've tanked 30+ mobs at once

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Aggro cap. (You could be talking pre-aggro cap... but that means new Tanks will never live because of them.)


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Seriously? You just quoted the agro cap to me? You can still literally pull as many as you like if they are within their tether range. You can't have more then 16 *taunted* (since there isn't an actual agro list in CoH the "agro cap" is slightly mislabled).

I've solo tanked upwards of 50 mobs in the ITF all the time after the ITF is done. This included the EBs and Bosses in the canyon.

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Stoners are probably the best all around Tankers at higher levels in terms of tanking (i.e. taking a hit) but is the least favorite set for me due to Granite mitigating all prior toggles and the negative drawback to Granite (-recharge and -movement. These can be overcome with IOs but I'm still not a fan of sets where one power makes several other powers useless (I had this problem with Inv conceptually with Unstoppable back in the perma Unstoppable days ... even if it was a blessing to respec out of the old tele-tanker build).

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Within the realm of SOs, I'd agree that Granite is much more sturdy than other Tanks. With IOs, I personally think Granite loses a lot of its luster. Tankers can build up their mitigation much easier than a Granite can build to overcome their shortcomings. If you don't have millions to blow on IOs, then it's tough to beat Granite.


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Thanks for repeating what I said

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Mind you, that this (like any of my comments (that's for the peanut gallery )) are entirely subjective to my personal experiences.

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Heh.

Likewise, I'm giving my opinion / corrections to your perceptions. I don't mean any offense by them, but if I see an inaccuracy somewhere, I'm inclined to chime in and point it out. (I expect nothing less from others who see something wrong with what I say, btw.)

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Not at all but you do have to remember that this post is geared towards two types of people; new players and new Tankers (specifically Villains crossing over and/or alt-a-holics). Most of these types of players won't be levelling quickly as opposed to the experienced vet who is trying out a new build and sets up a bridge team or something similar.

Also most of these people won't have skads of infuence, especially while levelling up, so I tend to stay away from IO discussions here as a means for making a Tanker combo do something it doesn't normally do well.

I've outfitted my second toon hero side with IOs (Kruunch this time) and doing it cheaply (without purples) its cost me upwards of 60-70 mil influence. That's with me having a bunch of the recipes as well as almost all of the rare salvage.

In my experience, the more casual players hardly bother.

But I *did* state that with IOs, you can make every Tanker sing and dance (even Stoners).

BTW it's official:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13469503

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Awesome information for a tanker n00b (i.e. me).

Question: what are your thought on tanker set maturity curves? As a new tank I find myself frustrated in the early game. My PUGs yell for me to lead since I am the tank - but with 3 TOs in a single toggle defense I am about as durable as a piece of cheese.

How do the sets mature? Which can tank groups early, which need to hit x level before they can tank large spawns? Advice on what you can and cannot handle as you level?

Thanks again

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Of all the Tankers I've tried (and that's been all the primaries with the exception of Dark Armor), Ice felt the most durable pre-20 although you have to be wary of the early toggles you don't need yet (CE and Icicles). This is probably because of the typed defense rather than the situational defense that Shields gets. Will Power is probably the *easiest* to progress early on because you don't have to make the run for Stamina until later on in the build, thus you can explore more of the set up to 20. Mind you, that this (like any of my comments (that's for the peanut gallery )) are entirely subjective to my personal experiences.

At L20 when most Tankers take Stamina life becomes a bit easier and then at L22, when you can start getting into IOs/SOs your Tanker (most any of them) starts to really shine.

Its a pet peeve and common complaint with most every Tanker that prior to SOs, Tankers are really just bags of hit points with a few low damaging attacks. If you can manage to hold out until L22 and beyond, then the entire world starts to change for you.

Getting into higher levels the only Tanker primary I've heard complained about on more then one occasion is Dark Armor but again I've no personal experience with that (I almost never see a DA Tanker). Otherwise they all blossom really well.

Getting into IO sets, you can turn around the disadvantage of almost any holes in any of the Tanker sets.

As far as what you can handle and not handle that's really a product of the situation. Typically Fire blooms later in terms of defenses (you usually want to take Tough/Weave on that set) but blooms fairly early in terms of offense.

Ice I think matures well but has holes in the end game (as most defense based primaries tend to). Energy Absorbtion is one of the best powers in the game. You can almost fill up an entire endurance bar on one mob, you gain defense per mob hit with it and it comes back multiple times in the same fight (if a longish fight). It's what really has me liking that set a lot. It also has the best panic button power in the game (Hibernate).

Invuln probably meets the average median the best in terms of maturing. It's one of the few primaries where I would take every power (WP being the other) and at the end game you really only greatly fear two damage types (Psionic and Toxic). Unfortunately if you play the normal content of the game you'll see a lot of Psionic post 40 but there are ways around it (defense and IOs).

Shields has a really fun power in Shield Charge and in general the set is probably the best cross between protection and damage (some lovin for the Shields guys ).

Will Power is easy mode ... all toggles and you never have to worry about HPs and Endurance. However (and again just from my experience) you'll probably eye that herding Invuln Tanker at L50 with a little jealousy until you get some IOs in there. You haven't lived until you've tanked 30+ mobs at once

Stoners are probably the best all around Tankers at higher levels in terms of tanking (i.e. taking a hit) but is the least favorite set for me due to Granite mitigating all prior toggles and the negative drawback to Granite (-recharge and -movement. These can be overcome with IOs but I'm still not a fan of sets where one power makes several other powers useless (I had this problem with Inv conceptually with Unstoppable back in the perma Unstoppable days ... even if it was a blessing to respec out of the old tele-tanker build).

In terms of PvP I can't really say since there have been so many changes since last I really PvP'd and I generally stay away from PvP as I consider it broke as [bleep].

Hope this helped.

Well if you're going to bust your game, you might as well go for broke (pun definitely intended).

I hope there is added end-game content that takes advantage of IO sets and any other rewards introduced as well as a way of distinguishing the obviously blending of certain ATs (tankers/scrappers/brutes won't be the only ATs that are adversely effected) with this "expansion".

Historically speaking, I think even Ghandi might be a little pessimistic about the chances of that happening.

But wow the forums will light up!

I think I'll roll up a Fire Tanker for the extra flame protection.

P.S. - Does anyone else read this as just a really big new co-op zone? Doesn't appear to be anything new right off the bat.

Freonfreak: that's been about my experience with Shields from what I've played as well as what I've seen.

Anyone have a Shields/Dark they want to comment on?

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The only thing that bothers me about your posts in this thread is that you seem far more down on Shields than is necessary. For Tankers, it's a very solid set that also happens to mitigate the Tanker's traditional weakness (damage) a fair bit.

On a typical ITF, though, with some buffing, more often than not, it really won't matter between, say, an Inv/SS and a Shields/SS: both are probably buffed enough to be impossible to take down, and both are probably damage capped. Except that Shields has the added benefit of Shield Charge at that lovely damage cap. Let's just say my SD/SS was out-damaging Scrappers at that point, while still gathering quite a bit of the aggro throughout the TF (we had another Tanker--a Dark--that was a bit overmatched, mainly because (s)he was sk'd up, though only from 45). That's why I'm saying I had an easier time with the Shields Tanker: I was taking out enemies far, far faster in comparison to my Inv/SS, and with a moderate level of buffing, neither were ever in any danger of defeat (even when I forgot to turn Invincibility on with my Inv ).

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Some asked a basic question and based on personal experience I gave a basic answer. I didn't slight Shield's in the least.

An odd phenomenon happens when in a group you say you prefer one thing over the other (even really off handedly) ... you get parts of the other group who express a different opinion acting as if you personally insulted them. I'd say this was specific to CoH but it happens commonly in any closed group.

Shields is a fine set. My opinion is that Invulnerability is a bit tougher generally speaking (which was the OPs question with no qualifiers). Yes with IO sets, Shields (or heck, even Fire) can be made to be just as tough and yes Shields (and Fire) both are superior to Invuln in terms of damage output.

Sheesh it's not like I said Shields was as lame as Spines Scrappers.

/popcorn

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I've seen a few posts from people saying something like that about Shield's endurance use, but Shields doesn't use more endurance than other sets... I believe it's on par with other non-damaging aura sets and AAO boosts your damage to boot.

For the OP question, I really would say a properly built Fire/Fire tank could fit the bill. Adding Tough and Weave to Fiery Aura makes for a sturdy Tank that can also dish out the damage. Other combos can work, too, of course.

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Shield's toggles and its status protection use (within .01/s) the same endruance as Invulnerability. The addition of Shield Charge which is often used makes it the set use much more Endurance.

Additionally Shield tends to get all of its toggles very early (and all those toggles (excluding Grant Cover) are needed fairly early) making it very clunky when levelling up through the teens and twenties. By comparison, Invuln doesn't generally see that last toggle (Invince) till 28 or later.

While Ice gets its toggles early as well, you can skip at least two of them (CE and Icicles) until much later (if at all). Ice also gets Energy Absorbtion which totally negates endurance concerns.

Fire is in a similar boat as Shields until it gets Consume and the really expensive toggle (BA) can be skipped until later to further mitigate the endurance issues while levelling.

Will Power obviously suffers the least from these issues.

I can't say for Dark Armor.

So (aside from Dark Armor possibly) Shields is the most expensive (Endurance wise) Tanker primary to use ... at least numbers wise. You can make the arguement that SC mitigates its endurance because of damage dealt (hence mobs die sooner) but then again I would still argue that the Shield Tanker is going to progress through his/her attack chain, thus expending the normal amount of its secondary.

Obviously this can be offset with IO sets but that gets away from the original idea of what combos seemingly work well without IOs and given the common criteria of "takes a punch and dishes out damage". Shield does accomplish this and well ... but it is also end heavy, so pairing it up with other end heavy secondaries may prove to be a little cludgy to the average player who may or may not foresee themselves kitting out their Tanker in the future with IO sets (and of course having to deal with the bulk of levelling without said IOs otherwise).

If you're getting yourself from the get go via a rich main toon, then any combination works (and Shield does admirably well under those circumstances).

My original statement was tanking with support, not solo tanking (although I think it might equally apply).

As far as Bresseimer (sp?), ah I see ... fast kill team and gobbled greens. Ok I'll concede the point.

Nothing is impossible for sure ... just not as probable as stated. I think you'd agree?

Edit: I should have made myself clearer but reading my original post I did say "in general". I think the "impossible" comment was inferred by you rather than implied by me but if not, I will amend that I meant the majority and not every single Tanker (or AT) in creation, past/present or future.

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*) Soft capped defense to deal with most of the damage - Check
*) Preferably strong def resistance to handle Romulus's debuffs -Check
*) A periodic self heal (or strong enough regen) to handle the auto-hit Nictus (namely Siphon Life / Aid Self) -Check

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Mind telling me how you did it if you'd be so kind?

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Resurgences. And the occasional jumping away to SL an innocent bystander before getting back into melee. He also dropped rather quickly. But inspirations can take you a looooong way in this game.

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So you deathed your way through Romi? Kinda enforces my point about tanking without support no? Which would also be even more reinforced by the Shield Tankers here who have already said that they've had a hard time with the ITF.

Sarrate: While the probability is that most ITFs have some form of support for their Tanker (or alternative method of tanking such as a Scrapper "tanking" while two Controllers keep Romi locked down (or locked down enough not to obliterate the Scrapper)) I've been on ITFs that had poor or virtually no support.

When I did an ITF on my Corruptor, even with keeping Romi pinned down most of the time, our WP/Axe Tanker got creamed a couple of times.

Hence my statement that virtually any Tanker needs (and probably gets) support for the ITF. I'm sure there has been an exception here and there but so far, the only person who has claimed to have done it unsupported admitted to the equivelant of graveyard zerging Romi.

That's not only not tanking (successfully) but the fact that you could use that method to finish a major encounter at the "end game" only reinforces my point about the lack of skill required for the actual encounters in this game.

Failsafe: I will concede that a well built Shields Tanker can outshine an Inv Tanker who isn't as well built. Thank you for at least admitting there is a difference.

Dersk: I've seen Elvis. After he died. He's living in South America with Tupac. What?

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MY TANK CAN SOLO ROMI!

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I've always found that experience pretty much trumps everything.

And for those that don't BS ... they usually back it up with how/where/why and so forth.

That wouldn't be you btw.