Kruunch

I disagree.

Stoners are easily the most survivable of the Tankers and the second most identifiable thematically only to Invulnerability (i.e. The Thing).

Yet they don't rank as the highest played Tanker AT. Why not?

Could it be that because playing one is like watching grass germinate and as aesthetically pleasing as watching Ernest Borgnine getting a colonoscopy?

Nahhhhh couldn't be that. Must be that they're just a well kept secret by the mute majority.

P.S. - Stop being a nerf-o-phobe. You're supposed to be a Tanker ... act like one. Leave that other stuff to the hypocondriacs of the world.

He had Tough and Weave (I checked). Maybe he just didn't have them toggled? Shrug.

As for sets, he had *some* set bonuses but not a lot.

But he's not the first Fire Tanker I've seen get dismantled in an ITF. Sure its S/L, but they are large alphas. Having said that, most groups I've run that TF with have been the rush through variety, often times expecting the tank to be able to clean up their "wake".

Having said all that, it's been my experience that most (not all) Fire Tankers tend to build and slot for a scranker build over a tank build.

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Actually, I've been playing an Iron Man homage on Infinity that's a FF/EB Defender (Technaught, he's in the Techwar arc in my sig), and I'm kind of enjoying it. The problem is he solos like a brick, what with minimal defenses (at this point, anyway) and minimal offense. No, it's not about damage/tankmagery, but it still has to be fun, and playing a solo defender is often like pulling teeth. Plus, he's still very squishy. He's been essentially one-shotted frequently already (granted, by custom bosses). Still, I agree it's as close as I've ever come. Even at that, it would still have been nice to have the choice of a power set that's a mix of melee and ranged attacks.

I agree, Tankers tend to be melee characters, but I see no reason why they have to be. I mean, Tankers have two mandates, get aggro and survive it. Neither task demands melee. I simply thought this would open up more options.

Remember that the other side of this is not about the Iron Man comparison. It's about opening up options for people who like playing Tankers.

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And now we know why Ironman has had the lamest villains to date

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If you were going to make a 100% team oriented SS/Inv build what would be your optimal build?

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This will come off much more snarky than it's intended, but my team oriented build would be exactly like the build I'd be soloing with.

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While certainly possible, I wouldn't be as bold in an STF or ITF with an Inv/SS/Pyre build vs. my Tough and Weave one. Inv/SS/Pyre being much better for soloing I would imagine.

Great example.

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One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that Foot Stomp has an absolutely huge 20' radius.

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Yes but I don't like to brag

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I thought we learned a long time ago that endurance is a pretty poor balancing mechanic. See, for example, Instant Healing.

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And I thought we learned that balancing the plus side of the scale with making it god awful to play didn't work. See for example Unyielding, Rooted, Rage, Knockout Blow, Inferno, Super Nova, etc, etc, etc ....

Apparently we're still learning that lesson

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I originally made Ultimo that way, as a Blaster with the pools and powers as you describe. However, I like Tankers because of their survivability. THAT is how I envisioned Ultimo, survivable. He doesn't have to do gobs of damage, but he needs to have blasts to be in conception. Unfortunately, no kind of Blaster can begin to match the survivability of any kind of Tanker.

But that's my particular situation.

You don't think anyone else would like to have this available?

Again, I'm not seeing any real reason NOT to allow this. I often wonder the same thing about other power sets. I mean, why not have a Super Reflexes Tanker? Why not have a Super Strength Scrapper?

Obviously, you couldn't give Tankers access to thinkgs like Mind Control, but damage is damage. Really, why not open all the damage sets to all the damage classes (that is, all the blast and melee power sets open to Tankers, Scrappers, Defenders and Blasters).

That there's resistance to the idea suggests I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing what.

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Ranged attacks tend to be antithetical to "tanking". Tanking here being my own definition of diving into mobs and flailing away.

Most (if not all) tank types out of the comics tend to be melee based with maybe one signature ranged attacked (Thor and his hammer, Hulk throwing debris, Superman and his eye-beams). If you peruse the Tanker secondaries and APPs you will see that by and large these have been duplicated. Hurl Boulder, Flame Breath, Eye Lasers, Fireball, Fireblast, Iceblast, etc ....

If you want to play a character who is *mainly* a ranged fighter, then by that very description you are not playing a Tanker (whether you envision him to be tough or not).

Having said that, you can play a Blaster who is fairly tough (given IOs and APPs).

P.S. - I think Ironman has generally fallen into the category of Blaster or Defender when referenced. I certainly would never call him a Tanker (as compared to the Hulk, Thing, Thor, Superman, Wonderman, Powerman, etc ...). Granted many examples don't have direct analogies to CoH ATs.

I only use one build on my Inv/SS but mostly because I'm lazy and don't feel like putting IOs into two builds.

As for what that build is, you'll have to pay me to share it with you

j/k ... the normal Hasten, Tough, Weave route (replacing Punch with Boxing) and I have Taunt.

Lol why not be a Will Power or Invuln Tanker then (two sets that don't really mess with your costumed look)?

Given your criteria, I would say you can get away without using Granite, but I could envision you switching "mains" after awhile

The devs' original idea of "balance" has to be taken with a grain of salt considering how badly they muffed that and how much the game has changed since (or rather, how much the powers have changed since release).

I'm not sure what the criteria is today, but going by the little changes I've seen here and there they seem to take a given power set (not sure which one) and measure to that both endurance and damage. SS got treated a little differently (because of the different mechanics it employs) so I'd assume the proto-set would be one of the secondaries with Build Up.

That'd be my guess at any rate.

Stone Armor (like SS for secondaries) breaks the mold because its the only set with a T9 power that you *have* to take. With every other set, no T9 power defines the set.

Sorry for the pronoun mis-usage (automatic assumption when not obvious).

I was going to say those prices were quite awhile ago. I just sold my old HO's off of Kruunch (about 9 of them or so) and the *least* I got was 15 mil for one.

Also with the current influx of players with I14 and the shift to doing MAs over regular content, you're seeing many uncommon (i.e. Crushing Impact) and rare (i.e. Scirroco's Dervish) getting *very* inflated. So yeah, the build you posted now would cost quite a bit more then it did awhile ago.

Additionally, the OP didn't say how they were funding this toon or to what dedication they were going to put towards this toon. The OP might take 6 months to level to Granite, in which case most of what we're saying is fairly moot because they probably aren't going to be that married to the toon.

However if the person is planning on hitting 50 in say a month or two, then saying you can go without Granite is a little misleading. You can *physically* get away without having it. However as noted, you might find it hard getting on end content teams which will make it hard to get recipe drops and merits at a pace that might be considered acceptable.

And yeah I agree, Stoners can sleep through most content that might have other Tankers sweating their support.

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I would be hesitant to make granite layer over the other toggles without a major overhaul of the end costs for each.
granite/rooted/mudpots already uses quite enough without the additional drain of three or four more toggles layered on top.

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Managing the end cost of all those toggles would be the mitigating factor to using Granite (which makes more sense thematically as well).

I'd much rather have to manage all those toggles endurance wise then put up with the -recharge and -speed of the current Granite.

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I also think most, if not all of the penalties should be removed.

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If you remove the penalties, you will also need to downgrade the overall strength of the set. It is by far the most durable tanker set. It surpass all the other tanker sets in that area by A LOT!!!!

Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.

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I did say that the bonuses should be lowered to layer over the top of the existing toggles (rather than replace them).

Additionally Granite is the only T9 power in a Tanker primary that you *have* to take to make the set really work (as we've become accustomed to it working).

Because it "works" doesn't mean it's "fine". Obviously enough players have complained about the power drawbacks and aesthetics to make this an issue.

The aesthetics are less bothersome to me now then they once were (hello poop monster!) however the reason I've deleted every Stoner I've made (3 to date) is because Granite is so cumbersome to play.

Spending hundreds of millions of influence to make it operate offensively, like any other Tanker is a ridiculous answer. You don't fix tediousness with tedium.

Duh.

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Looks pretty good, though I'm going Stone Melee instead of Fire. How expensive would it be for the Sets (a ballpark would be fine)?

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What he has posted? I'd say close to 300-500 mil (if not more). The dozen or so Hamio's by themselves would run you over 100 mil. easy.

As for the original post: At the late game, people pick up Stone Tankers for a reason. If I got one on my team who objected to (or actually didn't even take) Granite form, I'd insta-boot him. And more then likely wouldn't pick him up in the first place if it was explained to me before hand. Sorry to sound so caustic but an L32+ Stone Tanker without Granite screams that you have a crappy build (whether you actually do or not).

I sympathize about the aesthetics ... that's what keeps me from playing the Fire and Ice secondaries for the most part.

I like the idea of Granite stacking with the other toggles instead of replacing them (obviously adjusting resist/defense number to suit).

I also think most, if not all of the penalties should be removed.

This game had a ridiculous notion at release on what constituted game "balance": We'll turn you into God, and just make it god awful to play. (boggle).

Since then there has been a big shift in power sets in general to minimize or remove entirely, the negative aspects of powers. I think Stone Tankers should be the benefit of this at some point (more so then they have been).

P.S. - I agree about Granite form scaling in size, but just remember Granite tankers once looked like Earth Controller's poop monster pets. Be glad with what ya got

You sound like a Blaster has a stutter

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/Fire has more AoEs and generally, much better attacks, but when a character has the IOs to grant himself double stacked Rage, /SS is able to gain slightly better damage while having the recharge to put Foot Stomp on an endless chain of destruction.

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You don't need IO's to double stack Rage.

The Rage mechanic and the huge radius (and fairly short recharge time) of Footstomp is usually what drives people to like SS over Fire in my experience.

Also, the Fire (and Frost) secondaries seem to appeal to less people on a thematic scale.

I have a lot of fun with my Ice/EM too. Although a little tougher then yesteryear's Ice Tanker, it's still a fun difference from Inv/SS tanking.

Can't wait to start spending 5 days watching Energy Transfer fire

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*grin*

But yeah you'll notice the Fire Tankers who are chiming up have fairly thorough IO'd builds.

Most newbie Fire Tankers I've seen think that just adding Tough/Weave will turn them into a Stoner.

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No, but it can turn a DK tanker into an Invuln... without the def debuff resist or god mode tier 9. Kruunch can attest.

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I can attest that you were squishier then my Spines/Fire Scrapper.

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Correction, you and RotP can attest. c wut I did thar?

I have to admit those runs were almost as fun as jetskis. Laughing till I was blind from answering tells about what a "hitler" I am was worth it.

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Wow people thought you were actually serious about what you were saying to me? lol

RotP ... */Fire Scrapper's bestest buddy!

If I could only get it to come up every 5 seconds or so it'd be the only power I'd ever use to farm with.

Rhar!

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*grin*

But yeah you'll notice the Fire Tankers who are chiming up have fairly thorough IO'd builds.

Most newbie Fire Tankers I've seen think that just adding Tough/Weave will turn them into a Stoner.

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No, but it can turn a DK tanker into an Invuln... without the def debuff resist or god mode tier 9. Kruunch can attest.

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I can attest that you were squishier then my Spines/Fire Scrapper.

*grin*

But yeah you'll notice the Fire Tankers who are chiming up have fairly thorough IO'd builds.

Most newbie Fire Tankers I've seen think that just adding Tough/Weave will turn them into a Stoner.

Stone and probably Inv in that order.

I don't think I've ever seen a Fire/* main tank the STF and the couple I've seen do the ITF were fairly horrible (not totally their fault ... its the squishiest of the Tanker sets).

I'm sure 542524252 Fire Tankers will come up here now to say how they've soloed Recluse but if you're looking for the cheap answer ... Stone can tank anything with Inv as a fairly close runner up.

The rest need a little love and care

Oh I dunno ... some of my best experiences in the game are watching that idiot Scrapper constantly trying to prove that he's a tank, die repeatedly and finally rage-quit.

Nah you're right ... it wasn't too bad ... but playing it with a Scrapper was a little nutty (good practice for scrapping though).