Kruunch

Might want Hasten no?

Rectified Reticle? I can understand for PvP but for PvE what will this give you except some protection against the *very* occasional blindess?

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Except Babs hasn't got a reputation for being retarded, and Geko does.

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Thanks Corky.

Technically the sky doesn't have a color.

And in other news, the world isn't flat either.

/popcorn

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No, it's amazing that an iconic powerset such as Super Strength was almost an afterthought on the part of the devs from the begining. Hell, it was a few months in live before KO blow did any damage. Punch that doesn't look like any kind of punch I've ever seen. Haymaker that looks nothing like a haymaker.

[/ QUOTE ]Being one of the most powerful sets in the game = an afterthought?

Right.

The reason people don't cater to please you is because you're exactly the kind of person who will not be pleased by anything they do.

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Note, SS is now one of the best offensive sets a tank can get. At live it was horrid. Wasn't till KO Blow did damage, and I believe they upped the damage quite a bit on Footstop that it did get to the position it is now. Yes, SS appears to be an afterthought on the Devs in a comic book genra MMO.

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Some people have some funny ideas of how Tankers operated back in the day.

Before KO Blow was revamped (and no, Footstomp never had its damage changed to my knowledge) you didn't have ED. This meant an Inv/SS Tanker could run perma-Hasten, perma-DP, perma-Unstoppable, triple perma Rage (which put us at the damage cap incidentally), and with 5 mobs around us we were virtually unhittable.

Tankers did just fine with damage, trust me (at least certain sets). Now comparative to a Scrapper built well back in those days it might have seemed pultry but again there's only so much damage that you *need* to do.

The KO Blow change made SS comparable to the other sets post-ED, because at that point some brain child at Cryptic figured out that SS was the only Tanker secondary to have two non-damaging and essentially worthless powers (Handclap being the other).

As for changing Hurl to mimic the Controller's power, it was stated by Geko quite awhile ago that it was easily feasible, just not a high priority. It remained a low priority (if priority is even the right word here) or more appropriately a non-issue all the way through today. Considering the changes that the game had/has needed I can't fault them for that.

On my Inv/SS Tanker, for Invincibility I 4 slot Gaussian's (including Chance for Build Up) and 2 slot Gift of the Ancients (defense, def/end) for recovery.

This seems to be the best of both worlds to me. Before IOs I would suggest 1 endRedux, 3 defense and 2 toHit.

Hope that helped.

Now there's some minutia I can get behind.

Yeah WP levels up a lot easier then Inv does.

By the late 20s, early 30s Inv can start handling alphas that WP just can't deal with (this is before Tough and Weave on either). You really see this when tackling Freakshow with multiple Slicers of varying degrees.

Tough and Weave is (in my estimation) more important for WP then for Inv but definitely noticeably worthwhile for both and makes both very good team tanker choices.

I'd say you have it about right although Shield suffers from the same random number generator problem that Ice does while not having Ice's failsafes (Hibernation and Hoarfrost).

Both are fairly nullified with Tough and Weave (as is WP's vulnerability to large alphas).

WP's weakness is heavy ranged alpha's which it's regen toggle won't kick in on and it's so weak defense wise out of the box that it can be eaten down fairly quickly if just relying on the regen components. Also fixed with Tough and Weave (and some judicious IOs).

For soloing and levelling up I prefer Ice or WP to any other Tanker primary because of their go-power (Energy Absorbtion and Quick Recovery respectively). They are tough, non-stop and most of all fun.

For team builds I can't say I've found a Tanker primary that is as versatile and fun as Invuln. Almost no drawbacks (Psi and a "we dare you to use it" T9 power) and the second toughest (overall) set in the Tanker line (Stone being the first).

If you're planning on slotting IOs heavily into your budding Tanker, then any set should suffice. Also your choice of secondaries will be just as important in your decision (or should be).

War Mace is definitely a lot less underwhelming then it used to be.

My only complain with the set is lack of a "Hurl" type of ability (i.e. Thor's Hammer) and the underwhelming animations.

The graphical customizations to the set were pretty impressive though, and in whole the set is fun to work now (as opposed to the tedium it used to be).

Acemace's explanation is awesome.

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I forgot that it was that high ... worthwhile but still skippable in my estimation. Especially since most Tanker's have to work at making themselves as impervious as possible.

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What is the mission of the tanker? To ensure that his team does not die.

This is most often done by grabbing aggro and taking a beating. But Grant Cover is another way of protecting your team. It is also a way for the tanker to give his team a reason to be near, to get the full benefit from Phalanx Fighting.

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As I said, I'd skip Grant Cover ... usually for getting Tough and Weave while still trying to fit in powers like Hasten and so forth. I'd rather work on my offense, at the expense of group buffs, my primary concern being my personal toughness and the ability to gain/keep agro. This is a personal preference obviously and doesn't mean Grant Cover isn't worth taking.

Brimstone: In my experience, debuff resists don't often work as well as they might seem represented and since we're talking about team tanking, the defense debuff resistance from Grant Cover won't overcome a pack of mobs with defense debuffs (i.e. eventually you get debuffed anyways).

I'm not sure how the numbers work so maybe one of the minutia men can jump in and explain defense debuffs, versus defense debuff resists on a multiple mob basis.

It may be that the defense debuff resists would be a total reason to get Grant Cover. I'd be interested to know.

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Ice has better defense, but shield will hit harder.


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I disagree with this statment Shield/ has wonderful defense using melee/ranged/aoe it has very few holes, I spent a meger 15-20 mill on IO's and have over 50% defense to each of these. I think the real difference between the two is the heal.


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I'm sorry I should have said "defenses" not to be confused with defense. My bad. Ice has much better over all defenses *out of the box*. And remember the OP said he wasn't going to be slotting in IOs.

My reasoning for this is Hibernation, Hoarfrost, Energy Absorbtion and Chlling Embrace. Shield doesn't have analogous abilities and the abilities it does have, while making it a good defense set, doesn't quite reach up to Ice's level from a *tanking* perspective. YMMV.

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Too bad Inv isn't an attack set!

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Just wondering how long it would take you to point it out Pedantic Man.

I forgot that it was that high ... worthwhile but still skippable in my estimation. Especially since most Tanker's have to work at making themselves as impervious as possible.

Additionally a 15' radius will mean that most of the ranged in your party will not receive its benefit unless you remind them to be close to you at all times.

I think it'd be better then what we currently have.

Also Hurl makes sense for Stone Melee .... I think Inv should be pulling Buick's and bath tubs from our butts and throwing them, yes.

Nothing wrong with that and given your criteria I don't think you should have many problems (especially given the server you're on).

The engine can support it if it was implemented like the Grav Controller power.

Unfortunately us Tankers don't even get that

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Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.

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You have a point about Unstoppable. Although Granite Armor doesn't make you quite as durable as Unstoppable in some ways, the differences are fairly minor at that point.

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I go the other direction here ... I think T9 powers should be the defining characteristic of the set, not a skippable "oh crap!" power. Unstoppable is probably the most ridiculous of the T9 powers in that it makes you a god for a few mins and then kills you if you're still fighting.

I'd much rather see Unstoppable changed to be more like Strength of Will from the WP line where it layers over your current toggles and has a very managable crash.

But I also enjoy using a hammer to drive in nails rather than hiring a mafia backed construction crew I owe money to, to do it for me.

I'm funny that way.

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Just to clarify guys would you slot tough and weave with 3 def/res and 1 end red as well?

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For a "team friendly" build I don't think you will run into endurance issues so you can probably get away with slotting it like that.

Since this is your second build I will assume you will be putting minimal if any sets into this. With just a couple of resist/defense IOs per power you can totally mitigate any of the end drain from the toggles.

In my experience with Shields is that the group friendly toggles/powers are fairly dismal. Phalanx Fighting (gives you defense + defense per ally near you up to 3) has such a tight radius as to be almost only taken for the initial defense buff rather than the buff it gives from allies (and is generally slotted accordingly).

The defense buff given to team mates is like having a built in Maneuvers. It's a perk but definitely skippable (it's not like you're giving your team a *substantial* defense bonus).

Shield's main draw is Shield Charge, which gives you a nice AOE from your Primary which is very rare in the Tanker lines. That combined with the damage buff aura makes Shields very attractive to Scranker types.

Mace (since you mentioned it) offers decent damage and a better variety of AOE's then most secondaries. Combined with Shield, you'll find that in the 30s you become a pack destroyer (minions just melt). The downside to this of course is that you lose a good portion of your damage buff when you have the boss/eb/av left to fight.

Finally if you are not including sets, Shields/WM is very endurance intensive and the slight buff (5%) in weapon accuracy doesn't change how you will need to slot accuracies in your powers.

Ice Armor is a very nice set in terms of control. It has one of the better taunt auras in Chilling Embrace and becomes totally endurance self sufficient with Energy Absorbtion (mid 20s). Ice also has a heal similar to Inv's Dull Pain, and one of the best T9 powers in the game (imo) in Hibernation. Just Taunt and Hibernate and you will virtually never die.

Ice Melee is (or was) fairly flat damage wise, however it has the best control features which compliment Ice Armor immensely. The mini ice-patch virtually offsets the defense based problems of getting a bad slew of random numbers generated to hit you.

Both Shield and Ice are defense based which means that unlucky strings of hits can waffle you down pretty fast. In my estimation Ice/Ice has a higher probability of survival out of the box and does a better job at *tanking* then Shield/WM does.

My experience is based on seeing both in action at the high level and having an L35 Ice/Eng Tanker and an L28 Shields/WM Tanker. So take that for what it's worth.

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At some point you (all of us) has to realize that this is a video game with a finite amount of possibilities. Not all concepts are going to be able to be realized.

Try making Thor ... see how far you get.

P.S. - CO will help but only to a limited degree. If you go the defensive route, your damage will be equal to Defender damage (which is generally considered lower then Tanker damage) and if you go the nuker route, the best you can hope for in defenses is to be Scrapper like (unmodified).

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Actually, I made a version of Thor already, as a Stone/Elec Brute! It actually works pretty well. The Hammer effects sound like thunder rolling. War Mace, using the warhammer, might look better, but it wasn't available at the time.

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Yeah? You throwing a hammer a lot too?

That to me is signature Thor (which is my very problem with WM btw).

And the person above me was trying to say that having a Tanker doing Tanker damage purely through ranged attacks would be a "tank mage". And that poster would be correct (which is what you're asking for if I read your posts correctly).

Well you also realize that I said we'd be lowering what Granite does to layer over the top of SA's existing toggles right?

In your example you site Instant Healing as an example of a badly designed concept of giving a great power and mitigating it with endurance cost but you would be incorrect. The reason it was changed was because it was decided *after* release that as a toggle it is too over powering (it's what essentially let Regen Scrappers be Tankers). They (the devs at the time) envisioned it as more of an "oh s__t!" power and changed it accordingly (to a clickable).

Additionally, you're talking about the end cost of a single power offsetting itself, while I'm talking about the endurance of a whole set of toggles (basically the endurance cost of Stone Armor as a whole) mitigating any super advantages it has.

Yes you can mitigate these via IOs. That's working as intended in my world (otherwise what's the point of IOs?).

At some point you (all of us) has to realize that this is a video game with a finite amount of possibilities. Not all concepts are going to be able to be realized.

Try making Thor ... see how far you get.

P.S. - CO will help but only to a limited degree. If you go the defensive route, your damage will be equal to Defender damage (which is generally considered lower then Tanker damage) and if you go the nuker route, the best you can hope for in defenses is to be Scrapper like (unmodified).

I pretty much agree with Sailboat.

The only reason I like overslotting Rage in the past is you can remove all +acc enhancements. Also, there are some really nice IO sets that can be gotten cheaply for ToHitBuffs.

Becase you're not taking Hasten, you shouldn't be running into endurance problems a whole lot but you will still want to frankenslot your attacks. Not worrying about set bonuses, this can be done very cheaply.

Might want to stick an extra slot in Health.

Take a Taunt (or endRed) out of Invince and stick an extra Def in there.

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I disagree.

Stoners are easily the most survivable of the Tankers and the second most identifiable thematically only to Invulnerability (i.e. The Thing).

Yet they don't rank as the highest played Tanker AT. Why not?

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They don't? I see (pardon the expression) TONS of Stoners. Maybe it's second to Invulnerability, sure, but Inv is the classic Tanker thing. Are there stats somewhere on Tanker primary preferences?

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There once was but I forgot the link.site (if it even exists). However, while I see Stoners occasionally, I see Inv (obviously), WP, SD and Fire tankers much more frequently on Justice.

The only two Tanking sets that I see less frequently then Stoners is Ice and Dark.

Not exactly a scientific measurement .... just my personal observations.