Kruunch

Yeah, without knowing what kind of playstyle the OP is going to be using, its hard to get into the finer points of a build.

My suggestions were aimed at the idea that this person will be doing AE missions since they are so popular right now (grouped). Having said that, an Ice Tanker without Tough/Weave is *extremely* squishy. Ran with an L37 Ice/SS last night on a boss farm and he was getting squished almost every pack with half the agro I was taking (I was on my L40 SD/DM Tanker).

One note I would make however ... Energy Absorbtion should be slotted with as much recharge and endMod as possible. You want that up as often as possible and would probably like a good return on it even if only grabbing one mob in its effect. Especially if you're going to be running CE and Icicles (the latter costing twice the former in endurance to run).

Yeah and definitely avoid Hand Clap in SS.

With Ice you shouldn't really need Taunt (especially if running CE and Icicles) but its handy to have if you're running full groups a lot (or just giggle when the stray Blaster keeps dropping ).

If you are going into the epic power pools, then Hurl is definitely skippable. If you're not, you're going to want that ranged attack. While the animation time is awful, remember that it does high damage (consider it a ranged Haymaker).

Make sure you get into Tough/Weave in your 30s at some point (if not sooner).

Stamina at 20.

I'm a big fan of Hasten on all my Tankers.

Take Hurdle and Combat Jumping.

Avoid talking to strangers.

Don't bother with Icicles until way late (if at all) in your build (I personally can't stand it).

Avoid the clap.

I'm not a huge fan of Chilling Embrace early. Other people are. I would suggest grabbing it later if at all (this is a big debate I have with other Icers, so you may want to try it out on Test or with the second build and see how you like it).

Get Energy Absorbtion as soon as you can (L26 I think?). This is probably what makes the Ice primary for me.

I suggest a slotted Taunt and Hibernate (its a great combo) ... some folks don't like it however.

Watch out for wooden nickels.

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Kruunch: Fault offers something to every primary, even WP despite how survivable you can build the set. It's not just for a squishy set like Fiery Aura. Fault takes a lot of enemies out of the fight which can allow you to regen hp, debuffs fall off, detoggle enemies, or even hold aggro. It's a multipurpose tool. Whatever you can accomplish now, you could accomplish more with it. There is nothing bad to be said about it except the accuracy penalty (which is only a minor factor considering the benefits and the mechanics of how AoEs do tohit checks). I would absolutely never skip it.


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I never said it didn't and I really wish you would stop twisting your posts to imply that I did (not the first time I've asked you to stop doing that I might add). I just said that it wasn't *essential* or to use your words, "the cornerstone" of SM, which implies your build will suffer horribly without it. That might be your experience. That isn't mine. Having used said tool (even when I needed it no less) and seeing how easily I could replace it doing the same content (in this case an ITF). That's why I say "a good tool" and not "an essential tool" ... by and large.

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As for Tremor vs Foot Stomp... that is more than a vacuum analysis. The entire point of DPA is how efficiently you can deal damage over time. (Since you cannot alter Activation Times, they become crucial when computing how much damage you can do.) Stone Melee using Tremor pays for it by slowing down its single target damage to a much larger degree than SS pays by using Foot Stomp. (FS is superior to Jab and is about 92% the DPA of Punch. Compare that to Tremor which is only 32.8% the DPA of Stone Mallet - Stone's lowest DPA single target attack (not counting Hurl Boulder, of which it is still only 48% the DPA of).)

I mentioned the recharge earlier (as if it were on auto) to show the availability, even under best case situations (which is in favor of Tremor) it loses. The more Stone has to delay using it (due to other powers being activated, etc) the more ground it loses to FS.

That's not just number crunching, I've played with both. I like Tremor more than most people, I really do... but it's not even in the same league. Foot Stomp beats Tremor into a bloody pulp.


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I have played and currently play with both and I'd be willing to bet you that I can kill as fast or faster with my SM, as you can with your SS through the same content. Would you agree if that were true, that would make your FS debate sort of moot?

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Calash: Yes, Hand Clap sucks. No, I don't think it sucking is a good thing. I don't think giving SS a Fault clone is the answer, though. That would be trading in a hand grenade for a nuclear bomb in terms of potency.

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Explain to me in what way exactly would HC having k/d instead of k/b, turns it from a useless power to overpowering the whole primary. In game terms please.

Or more precisely ... how does it make it any different then Stone Melee currently is?

(and I notice you still haven't mentioned the continuing differences that would exist between HC and Fault ... sigh)

*EDIT* Sarrate: Instead of going around and around as usual let's try a different tact (*gasp*). Since you agree Hand Clap sucks, how would YOU change it?

I agree entirely ... I don't think having ultra situational powers and/or fairly useless powers (especially in a very limited power selection pool) should be a method for balancing a set.

And the Handclap issue has been around since beta .... I assume that since SS isn't "broken" per se, that Handclap hasn't been prioritized into an update. With the limited staff that CoH has, I could see why.

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See, this is the third time I've heard you say that Fault is the cornerstone of Stone Melee.

I consider it the most skippable power in SM. And that's with using it on a migitation needed primary (Will Power). Fault just tends to be overkill in most circumstances. Useful certainly ... far from defining or a corner stone.

P.S. - As we've done this circle a number of times ... Math doesn't accurately describe how the game should be played. Not an attack and not interpreting yours as one. Just tired of debating the game from the point of view of a calculator.

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Ok, going on your wish to talk about subjective interpretations of powers and how they feel: I completely agree with Sarrate's assessment of Fault's place within SM, and I find your interpretation to be that of a crazy person. It is not the only good thing about SM, to be sure, but it is an essential tool ...


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And for a Fire Tanker you may very well be right. But consider that you are holding up the *squishiest* Tanker primary as an example.

My WP Tanker has tanked virtually every end game TF (with the exception of the STF) without Fault and has done so as successfully as my Inv/SS Tanker. So this would defy your blanket assertion that it is a *must have* or an *essential tool*. For a Fire Tanker? Certainly ... I could see that. For most other well built Tanker primaries? Useful ... but not essential (I could see an argument being made for being more useful for Shield and Ice and possibly Dark (for the stun stacking with OG) ... but again, not *essential*).

This what bothers me about Sarrate's post ... she (he, it, whatever) uses math the same way more creative debaters use circuitous logic to rationalize a view point rather than actually objectively debating.

Had Sarrate been a bit more truthful (thoughtful? insightful? experienced? honest?) he would have pointed out that his "math" only makes sense in a vacuum. Put into the context of an attack chain *and* in what a normal person/group might be expected to play, SS and SM are virtually identical (not including either Fault or Handclap) in killing speed with SM's single target damage being superior to SS and KO Blow's animation time offsetting Tremor's.

In other words, when actually *playing* each set they feel virtually identical and peform virtually identically. So yeah, Sarrate's equation makes sense if your Tanker is throwing FS on auto and that's all he's doing. Over the course of 10 years compared to Tremor, I'm sure Footstomp is mathematically a billion times better. But that's just silly.

Finally we throw in the debate of Fault versus Handclap, which Fault is clearly better then Handclap (in your own words, "essential and a must have"). Forgetting the comparison between sets for a moment, most everyone will agree that Handclap is fairly fluff (fun power I think Acemace called it) if not downright useless by and large (my take on it). In and of itself, I think most people would agree (and certainly the vast majority of SS Tankers) that Handclap should be tweaked up. The debate is how.

Sarrate's (and others) assertion is that it would make SS too powerful giving Handclap k/d vs the current k/b because it would make SS and SM truly more equivelant (implying that SM is overpowered in its current form which in my mind is downright silly). Another mathematical omission here is the fact that Handclap would *still* have a 50% greater recharge time and use 30% more endurance (so SM still eclipsing SS slightly all around).

Again, the difference between *playing* the game and *calculating* the game. If I were actually forced to tank the the way the number junkies would make tanking out to be I think I'd drive a railroad spike through my head.

Fortunately that's not how the game actually operates.

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hover can be fun in SS tanks! Especially in open maps where you can hover over mobs/ kill hover/ and drop into footstomp - very effective for aggro

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Can't Footstomp or Hurl while Hovering (just an FYI) ... might find dropping out of Hover constantly a little annoying to employ either or both.

Replace Maneuvers (not really all that helpful on a tank for the end cost), or Focused Accuracy (not needed in the least with Rage) and drop Conserve Power altogether (you're a WP Tanker for crying out loud!).

Couple of other suggestions: Swap Swift for Hurdle (stacks better with Combat Jumping) and get Hasten. Might want to also think about picking up Hurl if you drop the three powers mentioned.

Good luck!

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I've already stipulated that FS is better then Tremor. I disagree to what *scale* it's better.

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Understood, I wasn't saying you didn't. I was disagreeing with your scale and provided my reasoning as to why.

(Btw, I like to explain why I take the stances I do so that people can either see where I'm coming from and/or point out any mistakes I may have made. So please don't misinterpret my longer posts as an attack - it's not my intent.)

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If you are going to add in Rage into the equation, then you'd need to add Build Up on the SM side, in which case the damage roughly balances (mind you I said *roughly*) out over the course of one Rage cycle (including the crash penalty).

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This is a fair request, as I did not count BU or Rage's crash before. So I'll count both this time (standard 3 SOs in each): Foot Stomp is still superior by 2.6 times.

(Rage provides superior +dmg over time compared to BU, even factoring in the crash. Don't forget the extra persistent +tohit, either.)

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Simply, it would take a fairly useless power that is virtually never taken (or never taken for the long haul) and replace it with a power that is uncommonly taken (and/or placed in heavy second builds).

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I consider Fault to be a cornerstone power in Stone Melee. I don't see any reason Hand Clap wouldn't be elevated to the same status.

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And keep in mind this is only my opinion (before this turns into a City of Numbers fest ... again) based on how each set plays and feels to me. Certainly very subjective.

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My opinion, as a function of both experience and math (which I've tried to keep at a minimum), is the opposite.

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See, this is the third time I've heard you say that Fault is the cornerstone of Stone Melee.

I consider it the most skippable power in SM. And that's with using it on a migitation needed primary (Will Power). Fault just tends to be overkill in most circumstances. Useful certainly ... far from defining or a corner stone.

And saying that Hand Clap would be elevated to "defining" ability status by replacing k/b with k/d .... well we'll just have to agree to disagree.

P.S. - As we've done this circle a number of times ... Math doesn't accurately describe how the game should be played. Not an attack and not interpreting yours as one. Just tired of debating the game from the point of view of a calculator.

/agree Calash

With the Ice primary, timing your Rage crashes with Energy Absorbtion and Sands of Mu usually makes you totally oblivious of the crash penalties itself.

And it's extremely easy to overlap Rages (note Sarrate's post above).

Sigh.

I've already stipulated that FS is better then Tremor. I disagree to what *scale* it's better. I use both on two different L50 Tankers and they both serve the same function (exactly) and they both (roughly) do the samething with regards to the attack chain of each set. Footstomp doesn't add so much extra damage that SS kills notably faster then SM (at least in my experience) so in that regard I consider them roughly equal (the animation difference being the key difference for me).

If you are going to add in Rage into the equation, then you'd need to add Build Up on the SM side, in which case the damage roughly balances (mind you I said *roughly*) out over the course of one Rage cycle (including the crash penalty).

I disagree that replacing k/b with k/d in Hand Clap would do anything amazing for Super Strength. Certainly not the over-the-top comments that have been flying around here. Simply, it would take a fairly useless power that is virtually never taken (or never taken for the long haul) and replace it with a power that is uncommonly taken (and/or placed in heavy second builds). Basically it would make SS about the same as SM in most regards (better AOE in Footstomp, better single target damage in SM ... both having the same amount of mitigation .... shrug).

And keep in mind this is only my opinion (before this turns into a City of Numbers fest ... again) based on how each set plays and feels to me. Certainly very subjective.

Re: Hand Clap: Looking it up again, you're right it is a PBAOE. My mistake (could of sworn it was a cone the last time I used it (which admittedly was years ago lol)).

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Ace: How would that make SS any different from Stone then, which currently does have two AOE KD powers? You think Stone is overpowered?

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Because while the KD is nice, Tremor's damage isn't even worth mentioning. As compared to Footstomp's, which is much better.

Long a proponent of reducing the KB mag to 0.67 and letting people slot for it. But I also agree that doing that to Handclap would make SS too good. One awesome aoe stun, one awesome aoe damage, and Rage? vs Stone's one awesome aoe stun, worthless aoe damage, and... Build Up?

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While I agree Footstomp is better then Tremor, let's not over exagerate the differences. Footstomp has about 40% more damage (not exactly EPIC at the scales we're talking about here) and a faster animation. They both have about the same radius iirc.

And HC would always play second fiddle to Fault due to having a 50% longer recharge, costing more endurance, and being a cone versus a true AOE.

Kind of would make it even in my book.

Currently Fault is a great power in the Stone line. Hand Clap is quite possibly the worst power in all the tanker secondaries that I can think of off the top of my head.

Yeah I thought it was extra enhancement slots as well, not powers.

Ace: How would that make SS any different from Stone then, which currently does have two AOE KD powers? You think Stone is overpowered?

Wow smell the SS envy.

How many times you want them to nerf Rage?

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Ahh, the + should have given that away to me, and I don't think I've seen anyone take both. Since you've tried it, you don't have any issue with the snail pace of Hover. =T

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Hover actually moves at a decent clip now, especially once slotted.

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Yes, but do you slot for movement or defense or set bonuses or some combination? Seems wasteful to 6-slot hover of all things, but it could be reasonable (3 BotZs, 3 LotGs).

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I could see Hover being annoying to use in an ITF or similar speed run, but by and large the speed of Hover out of the box is fine for normal missions and/or farms in my experience and you can always flip to fly when dashing between groups/objectives.

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Question for the Shield Tankers out there ... what are your thoughts on Hover + CJ?

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depends on the secondary. you cant footstomp or fault or tremor while hovering. there are probably other powers you cant use.

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Yeah I was aware of that and my particular worry was Shield Charge actually (which has been answered, thanks Jeb).

My secondary is Dark Melee so no powers there that I'm aware of that have ground restrictions while casting.

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handclap cant be as effective as fault simply because there would be little reason to ever play sm. tremor pales to foostomp...PALES by a large margin. fault's awesomeness is the justifcation for sm being a high end set.

handclap is fine as is. give it a better stun and use it after a controller roots. bam - ghetto hold.

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I don't think making Hanclap work *exactly* like Fault would infringe on Stone in the slightest. After all, the devs used Seismic Smash as an example to justify upgrading KO Blow back in the day to what it is now.

Having said that, Hanclap has always been a flavor power in my opinion. It looks cool, but rarely is as useful as its corresponding powers in the other Tanker primaries. Just making it go from Knockback to Knockdown would be an improvement (if thematically non-sensical). Personally I would leave it as is and add a damage component (minor) into it. It would still be a lightweight power, but it would add the second damaging AOE that SS could really use.

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Im just the opposite. I cannot stand Rage. I still took it, I just don't like it. Its just not fun. Of all my 50 tanks, my /SS is my least favorite because of rage. I know, Im weird that way.

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I can get behind that ... Rage takes some getting used to and even then it can be annoying as heck.

I gotta try out DA one of these days ... see if it's as bad/good as people say.

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Stone Melee is a surprisingly effective attack set, too.

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Stone Melee is a great single target set (and I do mean great) and also has a great set of mitigation if you combine Tremor and Fault.

Unfortunately Stone is really lacking in AOEs (one damaging AOE) and in CoH, AOE is king (or so it seems).

The two main differences (to me) between SS and Stone is that I prefer Rage over Build Up (by a lot) and Footstomp has a nice fast animation while Tremor does not.

If I were in dire need of more mitigation out of my secondary however (as WP, DA, Shields, and Fire tend to), I would give Stone the edge (Tremor + Fault = dribbling mobs).

One experience I had with Hover tanking Dark Melee, is that the Z-axis (seems) to mess with the cone geometry. I got HUGE Shadow Mauls and Sands of Mu consistantly.

Then again circle strafing seems to do the samething around large packs.

I've found that to be the case as well (resists vs defense in IO builds).

I guess the thinking is that no matter how much Defense you have (and the soft cap being easily reachable) the mobs still have a minimum chance to hit varying by level and tier as opposed to Resists that work the same way against all mobs independant of tier and level?

Hmmm I *thought* Hover was acting a little more precisely then I remembered it (when I was using Hover with CJ on the second build). Nice!

Another observation: I've been levelling this guy in AE boss farms (Maniacal Slammers). During such, I've had the chance to see other Shield Tankers in action alongside me during this process and they seem *really* squishy compared to mine (even the L50 ones).

My Shield Tanker is L40 now and has been main tanking the boss farms since the low 30s. I've been wondering if most Shield Tankers don't take Tough/Weave or if my secondary (Dark Melee) is largely responsible for the differences in the squishy factor?

Having said that, I still feel a little squishier then I'd like (mostly on alphas). Is there an IO build aimed particularly at resists that is worthwhile? Or are resists too hard to raise via IO sets past a token level?

Actually I was thinking of combining CJ and Hover to stack their defense (they are stackable aren't they?).

Basically I didn't want to go crazy slotting for defense if I can hit the soft cap without worrying about it (currently I'm around 40% defense without anyone near me).

I've been looking to slot more for recharge and recovery on this guy.

*EDIT* I tried Hover tanking earlier on this build and that didnt seem to be an issue although I have yet to try it with Shield Charge (does Hover mess with Shield Charge?).

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I IO'd out my ice/stone melee tank and I absolutley love it. It's tuff enough to fight a group of lvl 54 bosses and aia never run out of endurance.

My question is other then a stone tank "which I already have" is there another compairable tank that can tank on groups of lvl 54 bosses easily?

I'm just a tankaholic
Post some builds

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You said Ice/Stone which most people would take to mean an Ice Tanker, not a Stone Tanker (Ice primary versus Stone primary).

If you're asking which secondary is as good as Stone Melee ... well most of them. Depends what you're looking to get out of your Tanker.