Kruunch

[ QUOTE ]
I was also thinking could it be the "Boss" farms? Or farms in general? IDK...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. AE missions can be tough on a Tanker. I've tried the boss farms on my L33 Ice/Eng and it just doesn't hold up against packs that size.

LT farms however aren't usually too tough for him. Having said that, try IO slotting to get your Defense (especially Smash/Lethal) close to the soft cap (45%).

You may also find that Hibernate can be a fairly big deal in Icer tanking sometimes (probably my favorite T9 Tanker primary power).

I think we should get the flipside of the Brute inherent, where Tankers would do more damage after they die

[ QUOTE ]
I currently have defense debuff resistance capped without Grant Cover. I have enough recharge on Active Debuff to double stack it. Here are my numbers from in-game:

Battle Agility: +26.67%
Active Defense: +34.6%
Double stacked AD: +69.2%

This puts me at 95% (the cap for defense debuff resistance)

To increase your buff on Active Defense, slot it with Membranes Exposure. I have 3 membranes in active defense to get those numbers. I use Membranes because they increase defense (for the higher numbers) and they also increase recharge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at this a little closer, Membrane Exposure effects Recharge, ToHit Buffs and Defense Buffs of which Active Defense only is effected by recharge.

Is there a bug where Membrane's Defense Buffs increase the Defense Debuff Resistance value?

Also you could only have Active Defense double stacked for about 45 of its 120 second duration (assuming the correct timing with Hasten, unless you have an insane amount of global recharge).

Just some questions if you could fill in the blanks.

[ QUOTE ]
I currently have defense debuff resistance capped without Grant Cover. I have enough recharge on Active Debuff to double stack it. Here are my numbers from in-game:

Battle Agility: +26.67%
Active Defense: +34.6%
Double stacked AD: +69.2%

This puts me at 95% (the cap for defense debuff resistance)

To increase your buff on Active Defense, slot it with Membranes Exposure. I have 3 membranes in active defense to get those numbers. I use Membranes because they increase defense (for the higher numbers) and they also increase recharge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gonna check this out, thanks!

The taunt effect itself lasts the duration of the effect (dunno if it lasts through death ... would need to test against a PPD Kheld I guess (or similar rezzing mob).

I'm going to check out test tonight and see what those changes are like.

You're correct (stupid accurate vs regular sets) ... Dark Watcher's Despair can be slotted into RTTC however.

I have the DWD: Chance for Slow slotted in RTTC on my WP Tanker but I couldn't really tell you the effectiveness of it (other than to say my WP Tanker does well?). I viewed it more as gravey (and to grab the set bonus).

Well when my *average* attack hits 10+ mobs, I'd call that an AOE set and not a single target set. But this is also a product of the primary I'm using as well.

You have to realize that AAO in Shields makes the longish AOEs (Dark Consumption and Soul Drain) more viable as damaging AOEs. Enough so that their long recharge times aren't really a factor that is hindering the set (note my results above).

[ QUOTE ]
Right now I have a Willpower tanker with a Dark Watcher's Despair: Chance for Recharge Slow slotted in Touch of Fear.

I have the opportunity to slot a Siphon Insight: Chance for To Hit in the same power.

Which do you think is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't it be more useful in RTTC (either or both)?

[ QUOTE ]
Well been doing quicksand and stlagmites....working very well so far. I still get some scatter but I definatly see more DPS and drop the mobs faster.

Now to finish slotting everything lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm planning on going this route with my Fire/DM Tanker ... thanks for the heads up

Incidentally I was hoping to fit in Taunt instead of Grant Cover, as the one hole so far from a tanking perspective is that it has no physical mitigation except for Shield Charge which is only up every 30 secs or so on this build. What I've found is that this build has a harder time then my other Tankers at protecting team mates, which Taunt should make up the difference.

[ QUOTE ]
A few mistakes in your comments.

On your near-soft-cap. Mids' is set so that Phalanx Fighting gives you the defense bonus of 1 neighbor, so if you're soloing your defense is about 3.75% less (at each position) than Mids' says.


[/ QUOTE ]

My numbers are coming from the in-game power stats where Phalanx Fighting reads as giving 5% by itself (PF includes the Tanker (Scrapper) as one of the allies in its radius).

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup).

[/ QUOTE ]

Shadow Maul never hits more than five. It can include more than five in its cone, making the odds very low that you miss enough to not hit the cap of five, but once you hit five it doesn't damage any more targets. I think you might be mistaking the smashing/negative damage readouts for 10 targets. (I do the same strafing thing constantly on my DM/Shield scrapper.)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect (and may very well be a bug). I've checked and rechecked this (because I found it hard to believe myself) visually, via combat logs, spawn kill times and eye witnesses (re: jebe). Now Jebe has noted in the past that it seems I can hit more Hover strafing then circle strafing and to be honest I haven't paid quite as much attention to my other toons who don't have Hover past noticing I can hit more then the 2-3 mobs that most people are used to (part of what gave me the though to try out SD/DM). Also in most videos that I've seen people hitting multiple mobs, it's usually been while jumping over a pack rather than pure circle strafing, so the Z-axis might very well be the difference maker.

[ QUOTE ]

I think if you go outside AE, where defense debuffs are more prevalent, you'll maybe find that Grant Cover is somewhat helpful. As a scrapper (with obviously lesser def/res/hp capabilities), soloing on Unyielding against radiation enemies (and to a lesser extent gun/sword wielders) without Grant Cover often caused cascading defense failure. (I have not run the ITF with the scrapper, to see how he does against the Romans' legendary def debuff.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is my next big test for this guy, the ITF being the next stop. I'm counting on (hoping?) that the toHitDebuffs in DM will offset the debuffs I incur against debuffing mobs. If this turns out not to be the case, then I have the option of dropping Smite to gain Grant Cover and see if that combined with DM's toHitDebuffs equalize out against debuffing mobs.

I'll see if I can make a video tonight of the Shadow Maul / Sands of Mu effects I've been talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup). Jebe the Pirate can attest to how wide an impact my cones have.

[/ QUOTE ]

City of Data says Shadow Maul can only hit a maximum of five targets. Did this change recently? With all the numbers Shadow Maul creates, is it possible that it's actually hitting fewer targets than it appears?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that Sands of Mu (and Shadow Maul for that matter) had a 5 target limit as well (just from memory) but when I scoured the CoH literature and effects, no target limit is specified. Having double checked through the combat logs, I am most definitely hitting more then 5 mobs. So my guess would be CoD is either wrong or out of date (if this change had been made sometime in the past).

Jebe: I don't think either the range or the angle of the cone changes. What I think is happening is serverside prediction is lagging slightly behind the activation of the power, so the server mistakenly has you in range of more targets then you should be. There are times that I've Sands of Mu'd and Shadow Mauled where I hit mobs literally out in left field.

I *think* the quick fix (and all CoH vets know how much the devs are fans of quick fixes) will be to actually put in a 5 target limit, which will reduce the effectiveness of Sands of Mu and Shadow Maul from amazing, to simply very good (when used correctly).

The same change however would really diminish War Mace, which is right now enjoying really wide cones (45 degree vs. 20) which allows the WM Tanker to get the same effect that I'm talking about with much less effort (less circle strafing / hover strafing needed).

I've never been a big fan of Aid Self since it can be interrupted (and you lose the endurance cost) but my Tankers haven't really needed it in the past. However I've heard from other Tankers that it's invaluable (and I'm assuming they are slotting for interrupt time quite a bit?).

Anyone else have an opinion on Aid Self?

[ QUOTE ]
How are you outdamaging scrappers and blasters? Just curious... I might even consider rolling a tanker again some day if this is actually true, but in my experience, it generally wouldn't be.

Reasoning being DM is a single target set. SC isn't up that often. SD, while nice, isn't going to help DM compete with FS or LR or WS or FSC for damage based AT's in a crowd of opponents.

Anyhoo. I'm just curious. SD/DM is a tremendously powerful combo and does do insane damage - to one target at a time if you have a crowd to SD from, or to a small crowd every now and then with SC. Throw in the Tanker AT's lower damage mods and cap, and I'm scratching my head on "outdamaging blasters and scrappers" as a generalization. If you mean you were outdamaging other lowbies you teamed with, that makes more sense...

[/ QUOTE ]

DM being a single target set is a really big misconception .. it's actually probably the best AOE set out of the Tanker secondaries for straight damage (yes, even more so then Fire).

DM has two primary PBAOEs on fairly longish cool downs in Dark Consumption and Soul Drain. Additionally it has a narrow cone in Shadow Maul which is really DM's bread and butter damage wise. Shadow Maul when used with Hover or used while circle strafing will routinely hit multiple mobs. In packs of 15-20, I can consistantly hit 10+ mobs with Shadow Maul (and Sands of Mu which I use prolifically in this setup). Jebe the Pirate can attest to how wide an impact my cones have.

So my opener is like this ... Soul Drain, Shield Charge, Dark Consumption, Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu.

That combo will drop pretty much +4 LTs and below (maybe with an extra Shadow Maul thrown in at the end against something like the Freakshow). That combo also puts +2 bosses at just about half health.

From there I just continually Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu, using Siphon Life and Midnight Grasp (both superior damage rated attacks) to clean up the stragglers.

That routine is basically up every pack when I'm fighting bosses (which if you do your math means that it's taking me about 90-120 seconds to solo down 20 +2 bosses). Every other pack when I'm fighting LTs or lower.

Now there are some Tanker builds that can out damage this build (Fire/Fire/Pyre for instance) *but* they don't have the survivability that my SD/DM does. It really is the best cross between toughness and damage dealing that I've come across in the Tanker sets.

Finally, I'm comparing the damage (subjectively of course) to the Scrappers I play with (of various makes and models) and my own Scrappers. This build doesn't out damage *every* Scrapper combo (of course) and really shouldn't out damage a really well built Scrapper, however more times then not (and especially against more single target oriented Scrappers) I pull away from Scrappers over the course of most boss fights. My own Spines/Fire Scrapper easily does more damage then this Tanker for instance .... when he can stay upright

Note: In Issue 15, they are "fixing" cones. Which cones and what the fix is I don't know, but my guess would be that they will limit all cones to 5 target max. That will definitely put a crimp in this build, but not by a huge factor. If the fix is some form of geometry patch/serverside prediction improvement, and Shadow Maul and Sands of Mu start hitting the 2-3 mobs max that most people are used to, then the damage capability of this build will be severely reduced.

Well I know what the numbers are ... what do they translate to in the game (i.e. how well does it actually work?).

I'd rather pick up Taunt or get into Pyre if I'm going to rework powers.

Missing out on a lot of your damage potential without Hasten.

Also (and Hasten would worsen this) the build looks really end heavy. Just by using Obliterate in Footstomp and not having KO Blow slotted down more for end isn't going to make your life happy when adding Rage crashes to it.

Damage wise it looks like it has a lot of potential. Main tank wise you'd have the same problem as most other Shield Tankers .... lack of heals (not to mention your regen is fairly low).

Obiously the Numina and Miracle rares would help here. Also I might take a slot out of CJ and stick it in Stamina and grab Performance Shifter: Chance for End.

[ QUOTE ]
The very least I'd like to see done to Gauntlet is:

<ul type="square">[*]Increase the radius of low tier attacks. Powers like Barrage and Jab have a 3 foot radius. That is ludicrously small for it to ever hit 5 targets. (Those are also powers that Tankers can't skip in favor of larger radius attacks.) Barrage in particular should be raised due to its new longer recharge / higher damage.

I think the minimum radius for Gauntlet should be about 5ft. That would be big enough to actually hit 5 targets with it if they're close, but small enough it wouldn't disrupt the current standard of quick attacks having a small radius and slow attacks having much larger ones.
[*]Give is some form of graphical effect. I wouldn't want it to be anything large or flashy, but something subtle to give us some way to tell which targets Gauntlet is/isn't hitting. An effect along the lines of Taunt's graphic would be good. This would not only let us know its working, but give us a way to actually leverage it. Right now, it's completely invisible. (This addition would only apply to single target attacks, and not AoEs.)[/list]
I still think the AoE component of Gauntlet is a weak inherent compared to auras. aoes, and Taunt, but it would make it more serviceable without gigantic changes.

[/ QUOTE ]

For your second point we already have a graphical queue when Gauntlet doesn't work ... the Blaster's health bar

Rylas your build is kind of where I'm headed (a lot more expensive then mine is).

Question: How much does Grant Cover help with Defense Debuffs?

rofl

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically the gist of it was if a taunt is the only effect being applied (a single taunt effect with no damage or repetition such as Taunt from range) while extreme amounts of damage are being applied to the target from another source, the taunt effect can be overridden.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know these posts -- I've read them often enough -- and I believe you are misreading them. It takes really obscene amounts of damage to override taunt effects (the multiplier that taunt effects give you is 1000 * remaining taunt duration) that cannot be generated in practice (except vs. Willpower tanks with ineffectively slotted RttC or vs. +5 or higher enemies). If you draw aggro from something that has a taunt effect on it from a tanker, then it's usually something else: additional threat multipliers from debuffs, funky AI behavior, a taunt effect of your own, the tanker being at range, or a combination of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shrug ... obviously I didn't misread it since you just confirmed what I just said (I *did* say extreme situations didn't I?) but I agree that you don't come across that in game very often (obviously someone has come across it to bring it and have the dev look into it and confirm).

Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if Castle were mistaken since that post was a recant of what he'd been saying before Q4 2007 (including what he's told me in the past personally).

Either way, agro works fairly basically in this game ... I'm of the opinion that Gauntlet actually works well for what it's meant to do (which is add to the agro mechanic, not be the end all be all of it).

Am I the only Tanker that thinks Gauntlet is fine as is?

That's a good question ... not too many defense debuffs that I've run across but I'm really curious as to how much Grant Cover would help with that.

Right now my build is right up against the soft cap with about 5% over in Melee. I was *hoping* that my toHitDebuff would offset any debuffs laid down on me.

I was thinking of dropping Smite and slotting Boxing and picking up Taunt.

Also keep in mind that the slotting is the cheap version

Hi, I'm Kruunch and I like to farm.

*hangs head in shame*