Kruunch

To be honest there isn't much left in the game for the vets other than farming so these kinds of discussions are fairly silly.

But this isn't specific to CoH ... eventually all MMOs run out of novel content. Worthwhile recurring content is the bread and butter of a good MMO end game (which can be interpreted as farming *gasp*).

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Shields/Super Strength.
Don't see how DM is "amazing damage", but then I've only gotten one to 35 or so and think the damage is craptastic. Long recharging AoE "attacks" and a single target high damage immobilize... how is the damage anything above mediocre?

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First off the damage in the set really doesn't take off for Tankers until the low 40s due to the build schedule and probably how you are going to end up slotting (not to mention IO sets).

Second I never said that DM will outshine SS (although I think it's very close when talking about packs of mobs) *BUT* DM plugs all of Shield's holes whereas SS doesn't (heal, end recovery and toHitDebuff) which means that an SD/DM will never be as squishy as an equivelant SD/SS and that's the key here.

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The scrapper has higher base damage.

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While this is true, my SD/DM Tanker does 410 damage Shield Charges and Jebe's BS/Scrapper does 427. This is me using SD (maxxed) + AAO + SC and him using BU + AAO + SC. With a small red or external buff I do the exact same damage (which is dmg cap btw).

The defensive numbers can be fairly equalized as well but not right out of the box the way damage almost is. This is part of what makes the build such a powerhouse. It truly is just about Scrapper damage with a Tanker's build.

Ah thank you very much.

As long as you can hit up to 5 targets then Shadow Maul will continue to shine in the SD/DM build I think.

P.S. - Try Shadow Maul with Hover ... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised

Health and Defense. You will always have less Health then the Tanker version and you will have to work at getting your Defenses to the soft cap (45%) much harder.

Also, because of the way DM plays ... longish recharge times of your AOEs (SC, DC and DS), Shadow Maul and Midnight Grasp being DOTs, and the prolific use you should be getting out of Sands of Mu (anolther DOT), Scrapper criticals aren't as telling as they tend to be in other sets.

I've played both versions alongside a friend of mine who also is running both versions and we both came to the conclusion that the Tanker version was far superior. Subjective to be sure.

Warning: One other note ... I've seen (and been on) several L54 boss farms. Don't get sucked into these. With one of the best kill teams I've ever worked with, it took us about twice as long as my arc, for about 30% more influence and experience ... and most of us were L50 (I think we had 3 players in their 40s as the lowest contributors). Definitely not the most efficient of farms and down right ugly with most PUG groups.

Heyas ... this is for people who want to realize their Tanker builds quickly. It's not meant to be a discussion on the merits/ills of farms and farming. There's another thread around here for that

For those that want to level quickly; here are some of the AE farms I've used and advice I would give forming teams (or joining an existing team). Except for the last arc, the mission IDs here do not belong to me nor are they arcs of my friends (although I have played with a few of the owners). These are just arcs I've worked and I feel work well for levelling purposes (and later farming for tickets and influence).

I make no guarantees that these arcs will be up as they can be pulled by players/devs at any point for any reason. I will say none of these are exploitive and won't constitute banning or penalties by Paragon Studios. So without further ado ...

Arc# 103791: Whitefox's LT mission. He's recently changed the map but the mission is essentially the same ... a bunch of DB mix LTs standing around an explosive (killable object). Use the explosive object to help kill the LTs. This mission is usually run on CL1 or CL2 (higher if you want the boss versions) on a full team. You get auto SK'd to L46-50 (depending on difficulty and number of players in group). This mission is good for lowbie groups, but you should have a couple of L24+ toons in it (hopefully one of them is the Tanker). Duo and Trio tanking is good here as well. Young Tankers will learn decent pulling techniques here.

Arc# 114644: The Matrix mission. This mission spawns LT packs and huge ambushes (MA/SR scrapper versions of Agent Smith). Run this on CL1-5 depending skill and makeup of team (should be full group). Each LT pack guards a "healing" chest. Fight at the chest (especially for the ambushes) to help keep the squishies upright. Everyone should be hanging on the Tanker's butt for this map. Duo tanking this map is very handy (one Tanker for pack and one Tanker to pick up ambushes). With a good group you can run this map in 20-30 mins. Can be done with a newbie group or an experienced one. Good for fast farming for solo Tankers of all makes as well. Auto SK's you to L48-50.

Arc# 70409: This is the Freak Room. Go straight to the end of the map (bit of a run) ... there is a large room with about 60 Freaks (LTs) inside. This room spawns ambushes of the same type of Freaks to a mob count of over 300. There are two machines in this room that provide regen and recovery auras. Fight at the machines. Usually only the Tankers and well built Scrappers survive in this mission. The rest just leech while dead. You can run this on CL1-5 depending on the strength of the Tankers in question. Above L24, I suggest CL5 for any Tanker besides Fire and WP (usually L32+ for those depending build). Ranged ATs with Hover can survive this room if played well. Auto SK to 50. Having multiple Tankers (or even a group comprised totally of Tankers) is a good thing for this mission.

Arc# 199916: This is similar to the Freak Room but is a combination of Freak LTs and Maniac Slammer bosses. This mission is front loaded and only the first room needs to be cleared. This mission will spawn packs of Maniac Slammer bosses as each normal pack is attacked. Again, usually only the Tankers and well built Scrappers survive this ... the rest leech. In the front room there are regen/recovery machines (3 ... left, right and middle). Fight at these. Beware ... there are usually mobs in agro range of the door, so let the toughest Tankers enter first. Doing just this room you can make L50 in three weeks playing 4 days a week, 3 hours a day. Auto SK to 50. Having multiple Tankers (or even a group comprised totally of Tankers) is a good thing for this mission.


Arc# 235308: This is my replacement arc for the Gnome boss mission (formerly 190800). It is packs of Maniacal Slammer bosses. This mission auto SK's you to L50 ... the bosses are L52. You will need a decent kill group for this. I generally take on one extra Tanker (to help manage agro), 3 DPS, 2 Trollers/Defenders and one freebie player. I generally limit these groups to L24+ level toons (hopefully in SOs). Doing this map, you can level to 50 in 10 days (3 hours a day). It's also an excellent map for those higher level toons looking for farm influence and tickets. A good kill team clears the map in 45 mins. A great kill team does it in 30. I suggest main tanks be L32+ (higher or lower depending on combo and build). Except for Stone or Invuln, every other Tanker will want Tough/Weave to main tank this. You can make about 6 mil influence per map. This is the map myself, Jebe the Pirate and several others level/farm consistantly on. You don't want more then 2 Tankers (3 if the third is taking the freebie slot) for this, as it will start drastically slowing down your speed getting through each pack. Also I tend to stay away from Energy Blasters and Khelds as they tend to blast the mobs all over the place (thus slowing down the speed of the map as well as being really annoying).

Notes:

All of these maps max the tickets per map (1500 currently).

Use tickets to keep your toons in SOs until you're ready for IO sets. If you can fun your new toons, pay for SOs with infuence instead and save tickets for gold class random rolls.

I've found gold class random rolls set at L39 to be the best bang for the buck (includes Numina/Miracle rares, LotG Recharge, etc ...). Use the level slider at the vendor to lower your level as necessary to achieve these levels.

I also use tickets to purchase rare (orange) salvage for recipes.

A good money making scheme is to use your tickets for Silver Class recipes (again I recommend 35-39 range) which cost around 500 tickets and net you the slightly more common forms of the orange recipes. These are usually good sellers at WWs.

Finally these farms should teach your Tanker about agro management, pulling, speed runs, mitigation, ambush handling and general build strength (if you can't do my arc easily, your Tanker isn't ready for the end game TFs without a lot of support).

Please keep in mind however that these are controlled mission arcs, and won't prepare your Tanker for debuffs, mixed damage mobs and situational Tanking (with the exception of the ambush arcs).

Hope this is helpful to those building new Tankers (both vets and those new to the game) who want to realize their builds quickly.

Finduilas is Johnny on the Spot!

Forgot about Hurl/Boulder ... but the fact that they're ranged is kind of the offsetting factor there. Same for BoF (cone AOE no less).

I don't honestly remember Combustion's animation (been awhile).

I was really commenting on the normal attack chain (of course BoF usually counts for that whereas Hurl/Boulder usually is saved for those ranged situations ... at least with me).

I agree that having ET's old animation back would make me more interested in the set again as well.

Wouldn't mind seeing Total Focus get a new (faster) animation either.

Each set seems to have one long animation (SS = KO Blow, SM = Tremor, Fire = GFS, DM = Shadow Maul, etc ...) ... dunno how EM got stuck with 3.

Hunt down Jebe the Pirate for advice on DA.

Acemace is probably the go to guy for WM.

I meant could you hit more then 3 on test.

Trying to determine if their fix was geometry or max target cap.

But good to know they didn't totally obliterate Shadow Maul (and similar cones) ... of course it wouldn't have been the first character of mine the devs ended up neutering

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Hold on kiddo, when did this become a scrapper forum?. Are we judging Tanks on their ability to Out damage!?. Are you serious?. If its like that, I'll just grab my Spines/fire. Your playing a TANK. See thats why it was all broken till i9. Every tank was either a scrapper who wanted attention in a group (no offense to the vets)or some Burn spammer. Lets be honest here, its a good set (EM), it does the job, if you want to run down mobs fine, but don't make it sound like a scrapper set.

I could care less how many tanks you claim to have, we are discussing if EM is still decent, and it is. You know, it being a secondary and all. What else do you want?. Is this what its turned into? /fire tanks claiming they do "crazy damage"?, how many kids are playing this game? cause last time I looked, thats a shield symbol on the tank AT. Show some respect kiddo, address me correctly or don't bother.

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You off your meds again Lac?

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I guess I'm unfamiliar with this whole issue. If I recall correctly, Shadow Maul and its cousin, Sands of Mu, look like they're limited to 5 targets in City of Data; I've never hit more than 5 myself -- nor met anyone in-game who expected more than 5. "Oooh, all five hit!" is sometimes bragged in team chat.

I also have missed any references (outside of Shadow Maul discussions) to an upcoming fix/change/nerf to cones, either Dark Melee only or to all cones gamewide.

Can you direct me to the discussion of said change?

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Release Notes for 19.20090612.0 - 6/16/09 (Test)
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Fixed a bug where cones could hit significantly more enemies than intended.

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That is to address 'cone warping' as Dersk posted about here. I gave it a brief whirl on Test, and I could still hit multiple mobs easily with SM. I might not hit as many as I do as frequently, but if if you're aware of the cone angle/size, you'll still be hitting 3 without trouble. If you stood flatfooted without repositioning, then you'll won't notice any difference whatsoever.

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Could you hit more then 3 at any point?

I'd say DA/WM. The mitigation of Stone (almost) with the AOE goodness of Fire.

SS might tap you out on end adding Rage crashes to a DA (especially if you're like me and throw Hasten on every build).

Fire doesn't have enough mitigation for DA (or any).

Ice wouldn't be bad if you can get past the DPS of a kitten.

Energy: Heraclea would lynch me for suggesting (and I don't)

DB: No clue .... dunno if you want to keep track of DB AND DA ...

DM: Matches perfectly so of course not

Axe: Would work too ... better mitigation with WM tho I think.

Stone: Since you love it so much ...

DA or FA Tanker or Scrapper

I hope whatever the fix is, that I can still hit up to five targets. Anything less then that and combined with the animation time of Shadow Maul, really starts to impact the damage potential of the set with the other AOEs being on such long recharge timers.

As a single target set, DM would be just meh (although it's utility would still be awesome).

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BTW, the reason I keep returning to this topic isn't so much to convince anyone they should play or not play EM, but I've seen what we can accomplish w/Ice Melee & WM, getting some love from the devs. I'd dearly like something similar to EM which really got beat up rather badly by the nerf bat.

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I can get behind that, but having gone through this process a few times already, keeping it to *just* numbers or *just* subjective feeling will not win the day.

The devs need to know that Energy is "unplayable" in its current form by an overwhelming mass majority. By "unplayable" I mean to say, not preferred to be played versus other secondaries.

Then the devs look at the numbers to see if the missing equation is there somewhere (a fault of the devs for just not playing one and seeing for themselves ... and by playing one I mean playing it straight through as your "main" so to speak).

Finally the changes needed/requested have to fit into their development schedule once the need/request has been established as necessary.

I don't have that big a beef with Energy, but I also don't continually play mine (either of them) so that might be a telling factor right there ... it doesn't garner enough interest (subjective to be sure).

In my mind there is one real fix for EM that is doable under the current mode of development and that would be to replace Total Focus and Energy Transfer's animations with shorter ones. However since Energy Melee exists elsewhere in the game other than just for Tankers, this change while seemingly easy, may present problems elsewhere.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out that ET's animation was changed a while back due to Energy Stalkers having a great attack chain (the one shot rule not even applying to them since it was so easy to two shot someone) in PvP. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that this change was made around the time the "toggle dropping" change was made for the same reason, but this is purely conjecture on my part.

In other words, Energy Melee might have gotten pegged because of its use with another AT and/or the PvP system changes that have been made. Not like CoH hasn't overtweaked issues before

P.S. - I have a Shields/WM Tanker too (L27 currently) who is a powerhouse offensively but feels clunky and squishy compared to my SD/DM. I think DM specifically makes Shields shine as an all round Tanker set imo.

The nice thing of Shields/DM is that it plays like a Scrapper but is as tough as a Tanker.

Basically you get the advantages of a Fire/Fire Tanker without the squishiness.

Shields being a defense set plays similarly to Ice in that you can be crushed by the random number generator at times. Unlike the utility of Ice, Shields is more offensive oriented with a damage buff aura and Shield Charge (amazing AOE).

The utility factor is made up in Dark Melee with Siphon Life (plugs the heal hole ... 20% heal every 3-4 seconds on a well built version), Dark Consumption (one of your AOEs and endurance recovery) and Soul Drain (aoe dmg, build up effect that stacks nicely with Shield's damage buff aura) and finally the secondary effects of DM being toHitDebuff which layer across Shield's defense based primary extremely well.

So basically what you get is a complete Tanker with few holes and a lot of fire power. One of the mainstays of the offensive power of DM is using Shadow Maul properly to hit multiple targets. This is being "fixed" next issue (not sure if its a max target fix or geometry fix at this point) and I'm not sure how this will effect the offensive capabilities of the set but we'll see.

Don't get me wrong ... you won't confuse this for a Stone or Inv Tanker. But on the upside, you won't go down as fast as a Fire Tanker either.

And doing 400+ damage Shield Charges every 30 seconds is flat out fun

I think there's a matter of perspective here as well. If you played Energy Melee through its changes, you're going to probably be a little more jaded about the set then if you picked it up recently and/or picked it up from time to time, not having directly experienced the decline as it happened.

I was annoyed with EM for a different reason ... it was my PvP build which worked amazingly well when PvP first came out. Now it's fairly worthless for PvP on the strength of the set itself.

I doubt however that someone picking up Energy Melee right now would have the same experience with it that you (dave_p) or other long time Energy Tankers would have (sort of a case of not missing what you never had).

As a set itself right at the moment it's not amazing, but it's not bad either. It offers good mitigation via stuns which also allows for interesting slotting as well as very good single target damage (better then Stone's or Fire's ST damage on a power by power basis incidentally ... at least according to Mids). The real problem with the set (in my mind) is the animation times of Whirling Hands, Total Focus and Energy Transfer. Most sets have one longish animation time and this one has three, making the attack chain a bit clunky and this might be where it loses out against other sets ... damage per chain per time (but on the flip side it's visually fun to watch).

Having said that I agree with dave_p in that when compared to other Tanker secondaries, it feels very underwhelming at times. The question here might be is it important to you as the player what the other sets are doing compared to you, or just what you are doing in general in the game?

Evil farmer!

I would personally trade Maneuvers for Hasten (I'm not a huge fan of Leadership on Tankers while Hasten will give you much more bang for your buck for your toon damage wise).

I assume you're going for a more defensive build here and in that regard it looks fine.

Complaining in beta forums about an MMO != developing an MMO.

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Alright Tanker gurus, back from a haitus(i12) and am just looking for something new to have fun with, while still being effective without going bonkers with Inventions-Don't have the time to invest in them anymore.

As far as primaries go, I'm considering Ice, Invul and Shields. I've always loved Ice but with exotic damage holes, positional Defense it seems at a bit of disadvantage late game. Invul I have little experience with but am willing to give it a go. Shields is something I'm not completely sold on but it seems to have better overall Defense than Ice with an offensive nature, yet my test version from closed beta doesn't seem to hold up as well as my Icer did.

That said, I need something that can solo well as well as team, PuG's through TF's of all sorts, without giving up too much damage, won't break the bank and is ultimately fun. No Energy Melee and would rather not do SS.

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Inv/SS was my favorite Tanker combo until recently. I levelled up an Shields / Dark Melee and it has quickly gotten favorite status.

Good survivability (not quite as tough as my Inv but much tougher then my Icer and about equal to my WP Tanker) and amazing damage.

If you want something fun and a little exotic, give it a whirl.

Otherwise I agree with the poster above me in Inv/Fire.