Kruunch
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Didn't say I was better ... just that I was around for herding back in the old days and a lot of people commenting on it weren't. Despite when they say they created their accountsOriginally Posted by Alabaster12
Oh the old... you guys aren't as good as me because you weren't around so you don't know what you're talking about ploy.
See I don't think you did experience herding. Mission map herding was a very quick flash in the pan because it was proven over and over again that it was actually slower then just cruising through the mission with the group (a game myth that both me and Havok debunked way back in the day).Quote:I experienced herding. I even enjoyed it for a small period of time, but the problem with systems in games that trivialize content or make it so you are sitting around for large periods of time is that they frequently get very boring, very quickly. People might like them for a while, but eventually they start to question what they are even doing in the game if all they have to do is sit there and hit a few buttons every 5-10 mins only to keep doing that over and over.
Most people who continued doing it were Tankers who enjoyed the crowds and AOErs who enjoyed blasting everything at once.
CoT Portal missions, PI portal farms, bridging and dumpster diving were all much more efficient then map herding. Some of these got taken away (CoT portal farms) while others got nerfed (dumpster diving via mob collision detection) and some were left to stay while others and ironically the most efficient means of power levelling and farming, was left in the game in the PI portal farms.
The devs even acknowledged (and by proxy gave it their blessing) of extreme farms and levelling with the addition of Ouroboros so characters could go back and do content they out levelled.
Since then we've had many more ways of trivializing content instituted by the developers including IOs, positional defense and the AE system. All of these do *much* more to trivialize the game then repealing the agro cap ever would.
So while I'd agree with you in theory on a freshly released MMO, that's just not the game you are playing today, whether you want to deceive yourself or not.
I've seen this posted in other threads and even other MMO boards and it's a silly statement. If you think about it long enough it will dawn on you why.Quote:MMO's can be about grinding, but usually they aren't ONLY about grinding. Otherwise there would be no point towards releasing new content patches. If people could be satisfied just doing the same thing over and over indefinitely then why bother changing the game. Find something they like to do, and keep making it easier.
Just an FYI ... the difference (apparently) between you and me ... I actually played the game back then, and at all levels the game had to offer.Quote:Oh... and for the record:
Account Created On: Aug 10, 2004
Dunno what you were doing. -
Quote:Can't argue with thatOriginally Posted by Gashes
while buying a race car to go to the grocers is overkill, you look SO DAMN COOL DOING IT!!!!
Isnt that why we are tanks, to be the rock of our team, AND look good doing it?
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Quote:It was a toggle in beta ... at least from beta 3 on.Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I read from somewhere that temporary invulnerability was actually temporary in beta. It was a click instead of a toggle.
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Quote:Better then the Level 1 one just sucking no?Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
So your level 26 unlock is something that sucks and your level 1 unlock is something that won't be good until you have other stuff to stack with it?
Really? -
Quote:True ... can't really debate that.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Well, for Tankers it really doesn't matter, since you get the choice between the two anyways. Having TI as the Tier 2 power, though, might make it seem more powerful, since it's of a higher Tier. However, a name change would definitely clarify this. A switch in the 'order' for Tankers, though, just doesn't seem necessary when a simple rename would do.
I think they should rename Temporary Invulnerability to "Pick This One Before RPD ... Unless You're a Brute or Scrapper in which case you're stuck with it NYAH NYAH!"
We could call it PTOBRPDUYBSWCYSWINN for short.
Think it'd fit on the tool tip? -
Quote:I'm of the opinion that it's not really a large issue either way but if you're going to do it for Brutes and Scrappers ostensibly for allowing them a more useful mandatory T1 power, and you've already admitted that new players have taken RPD because it sounds stronger then TI, then for the same reasons it should be done for Tankers as well.Originally Posted by Finduilas
I'd also support swapping TI and RPD so brutes and scrappers don't have to RPD as their first power. But what I'd really like to see is getting rid of the silly rule that all players have to take the first power in their secondary. That extra flexibility would help all ATs, not just tanks.
Also the idea of Invuln Tankers being "ungrateful" (visions of Invuln Tankers holding their porridge cup out like little David Copperfield) is not pertinent. If it were, then this game has much larger issues then anything Tankers can claim. -
Quote:You still have yet to give a reason why.Originally Posted by Shannon_EU
Well I knew them days and as far as I am concerned they're best left where they are. I think you'd be flogging a dead horse with this idea as the game undeniably has moved forward a ton in terms of PvE balance based on quantities such as the aggro cap figure.
My contention is that the current PvE balance has made the agro cap a relic.
In fact, one could say that the PvE balance has moved backwards a ton, not forwards.
Shrug. -
Quote:ROFL so true.Originally Posted by Ishtar_NA
I greatly prefer my WP tanks because they are so easy to just turn the toggles on, roll my face on the attack keys and win.
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Quote:And that is fairly natural. The problem here is not with the agro crap, but the risk/reward system and content within CoH currently.Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Except for where, when something is sufficiently rewarding, most people are doing it. Which means if you dislike it enough that you don't consider the superior rewards worthwhile, you are in the minority. Sure, there may be others like you, but beyond a certain critical mass it becomes increasingly difficult to find a group of people to play with who don't want to maximize their reward.
You're being disingenuous here. Far more people then just Tankers enjoyed having no agro cap (for all the reasons listed above). It just happens that the agro cap directly impacts the lack of dichotomy between Tankers and other ATs.Quote:And you still haven't explained why anyone would want to let you herd at present, since it no longer offers the incentives that made it popular in its heyday, and still has all the faults. So, as I said, I have no objection to lifting the aggro cap for solo tanks in instances, since the only purpose seems to be entertainment for Tankers who just like seeing a big crowd of enemies.
Along those lines, lifting it for just solo Tankers makes no sense whatsoever.
Again you're being disingenuous. Since you've posted this numerous times now on this thread, I assume you're just attention starved, so here's your attention.Quote:Actually, if you really just want to see a big crowd of enemies, do this: create an AE mission, fill it with glowies that spawn large ambushes, and run through clicking on them. Come I16, you'll even have the option of having them all spawn for 8-man teams. Enjoy!
Run along like a good boy now. -
Quote:In Russia the forums post YOU!Originally Posted by Ironblade
If you can hear Mod08, he can hear you.
If you can't hear Mod08, you may be only seconds from getting modsmacked. -
Just ran an ITF last night on the SD/DM Tanker with about halfway built between the original posted build and my advance build.
Health never dropped below 80% ... including soloing a tower and the pack of Warshades/Bright Novas at the top of the Oracle. I had two Dark Defenders with me at Romi so hard to tell how good versus how debuffed he was, but Romi never touched me.
Performed amazingly.
I did notice the larger Warshade mobs made filling the cones harder (especially inside the caves doing the shards).
Also in large group tanking, not having Taunt or a ranged power makes protecting the team a bit tougher. A fast recharging Shield Charge helps but who wants to waste that on two mobs beating up the Blaster in the corner? ... I highly suggest Taunt though for this build for those people who want to full group team a lot (moreso then for most other Tanker builds I've tried).
Finally I was running with 2 Membrane Exposures in Active Defense ... this got my Defense Debuff Resist to between 56% and 82% depending if Active Defense was double stacked or not.
Enjoy. -
I find it ironic that the vast majority of people posting here (both pro and con) have never really experienced true herding from back in the day.
I can only assume that for many of these people, they are picking up the pro/con debates that older players have made, based upon preference for the player and their own thoughts on hypothetical situations that haven't actually encountered.
I did a *ton* of herding back in the day. I herded whole mission maps and entire sections of zones. Let me try to debunk a little of the misinformation about herding (and the agro cap):
1) Herding was primarily done (after the yaya factor) to clear mission maps faster and/or gain XP faster. It was back then, not the most efficient method of XP/inf farming. CoT portal missions (which were nerfed) and bridging the demon farms (which still exists today) were far more efficient. It would even be less efficient then doing the AE farms today (as is all other forms of prior farming). If the farming aspect is what bothers you, then I suggest you take a look at the genre of game you are playing. MMOs are built on repetitive game play as part of their business model ... in other words they depend on players farming.
2) Players getting kicked from teams for not wanting to herd ... I never kicked a player once from one of my teams because they didn't want to herd ... in fact I only ever had one complaint about in the entire time we did it, and that was a simple "I don't like herding" and the person left of his own volition. If you don't like it, you don't to do it. Fairly simple.
These are the only two real debates I've heard against lifting the agro cap. I can understand if it does nothing for your game, but why would you go out of your way to try and block something that many other people would enjoy very much?
Again, the sad truth is that CoH doesn't offer the content to continue characters. That leaves the player with a few choices ... continually build new characters and/or farm with max level characters. I *want* more content. I've wanted more quality content for this game since beta. Alas, Paragon Studios and Cryptic before them either don't understand what content for an MMO entails or don't have the development team to keep up (or both). To that end, the only things we are left with are ways to make the current content more interesting ... lifting the agro cap would help achieve this in a very simple to implement way. -
Quote:Bingo!Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I'm all for removing the aggro caps for tankers. However, I think it needs to be done with certain conditions.
First, no extra range or target increase on aggro auras or taunt.
Second, no increase to the AoE cap for any AT.
Basically, if the aggro cap is removed, I want ABSOLUTELY NO BUFFS to any AT or power. So if a tank aggros 45 mobs, the tank shouldn't get any extra tools to maintain that aggro. -
Quote:Where did you see me say this?Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It makes perfect sense. I was addressing Kruunch's assertion that activities, methods, and strategies are only ever popular because they are entertaining. This is just not true. Some activities are popular because they are wildly more rewarding than more entertaining options. I assert that herding was one such activity, and AE farming is another.
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Quote:But then you're arguing minority over majority. Personal play preference shouldn't take precedence over the over all well being of the game. In this case, that being more contented (paying) players.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch,
While I agree with you that theoretically this won't affect the game of anybody that doesn't want to herd, I can also recall times prior to the aggro cap being put in that I was kicked from teams for not wanting to herd (and some of these times where on teams where most of the team didn't want to herd, but the leader did).
I think more than a few of us remember those times, and think that removing the aggro cap will bring back those days. In theory, even back then, it shouldn't have affected us, but it did.
If not, then you're arguing for the exception and not the rule.
In my experience most of these types of people are the ones who stand around with a friends list who could care less about them and expect someone to form their entertainment. I don't and won't cater to this type of crowd (the same whiney crowd here on the boards who hold morale superiority in a video game over what is actually fun to the majority).Quote:Certainly, farming in the AE is a similar thing to what happened back then. I remember back when I first got onto the forums people complaining that they couldn't find teams that didn't want to herd, much as today we see complaints of people who say they can't find non-AE teams.
If you don't like AE farms (or herding) make a group that doesn't do either. If you can't find people to fill that group, that just lends more weight to my points don't you think?
I agree ... I'd be fine with a 34 cap limit (happier without one but fine with that). I think someone else mentioned 23, which I think is too low still. At least 34 allows for more of that old "holy god!" feeling.Quote:Of course, they probably can find teams if they put some effort into it, but I do understand some of the hesitation you're seeing when talking about removing the cap. I think there is a perception issue that this could increase frustration in out-of-AE non-farming team finding. I really do think that an increased aggro cap could work. I just think that there should be some sort of limit that prevents people from herding whole maps.
By the same logic, just use Brawl on your toons to present a challenge. This doesn't work. Challenge is not the only thing people are talking about when saying that the game is too easy. Its risk/reward. In CoH it's currently way WAYYYY out of whack. The rewards are too easy ... the risk not great enough .. the pay off not what it should be for those things that are.Quote:As a complete aside, I do find it a little odd that people spend a lot of time getting their characters uber-ed out with IOs, then complain that the game offers them little challenge. Well, that's because the game is still balanced around SOs. IOs allowed you to make tings easier. If you have a fully-IOed out character, and want some challenge, use the second build as an SO build, and make things tough for yourself again. But hey, maybe that's just me.
And to make it worse, since there's no content for IO'd out toons, IOs themselves are a waste of a reward system except for bragging rights (and complaining about how easy they make the game).
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Quote:Yes.Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Petty? Have I misconstrued what people said completely (and continue to do so out of some need to be smug, superior, and feel like I'm ruffling feathers)?
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Quote:All kidding aside, this is really the cruxt of the point I was trying to make to them.Originally Posted by _Deth_
Sorciere and Starsman stated what they thought was fun, what Kruunch, me and others have stated is, removing the aggro cap will not change how people that don't mind the aggro cap play the game. They can keep doing what they are doing. Those of us that dislike the aggro cap would be able to do what we find fun as well. Currently, I run most solo content on Invincible with my tanks, short of AVs, not because I can't live through it, but because I lack the damage output to kill them. I still like to grab as many mobs as I can to make the content challenging.
My proposal doesn't effect their game. It effects ours.
Additionally I am not proposing anything new to the game but something that had already been in it. -
Quote:Or ... you might need another Tanker.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Kruunch, one other thing I thought of here:
The old Herding methods took a great deal of advantage of the mob stacking bug, where a good deal of mobs could exist in one spot, allowing for great stackability of mobs in a very tight spot.
This bug has since been fixed. What this would mean now is, if you were to herd up an entire map, and brought them to one spot, there's no way that you could hold aggro on all of them, since you'd be losing aggro from not being able to affect them all with your aggro aura or gauntlet (and trying to cycle Taunt among a couple hundred enemies wouldn't be possible).
I would think that this would lead to significant team deaths due to aggro loss if massive herding was performed.
Hmmm...maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing... ;-)
*gasp*
Tanker stackability fixed!
OMGWTFBBQ!!!!
(seriously I think you are correct ... another horse I hadn't beat to death for the pundits yet) -
Quote:As long as you understand where you stand.Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Sorciere, you're disagreeing with them, which means you want to only fight 1-2 mobs. Somehow my discussing the aggro cap as being okay where it is meant I wanted to fight only 7 mobs at once, a few pages back. If you're against raising the aggro cap, you're against having fun in the game and being heroic, that's clear.
It has nothing to do with the fact that some are arguing this idea won't really help things out for the game or tanks. Nope, anyone against it is just plain not fun. Nasty, not fun people, get out of this thread!
And if 7 mobs is your idea of tanking, I feel sorry for your groups. -
Quote:I think the numbers "1 or 2" was figurative for a low number of mobs.Originally Posted by Sorciere_NA
No, it wouldn't be. For example, from "let n be a number less than 10", it doesn't follow that "n must be equal to 1 or 2". That's elementary logic.
Again, something easily inferred from the post for most human beings.
Seriously? -
Quote:Target caps prevent the "problem" which is ascribed to herding ... which is killing en masse and quickly.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I agree with most of this, even though I think that your first point and third kind of point out the problem with just ED and the GDN having this effect. If IOs partially repealed the effects of ED and the GDN (which I think they were at least kind of designed to [allowing you to remove the effects of some, but not all, of the ED and GDN nerfs]), then if the aggro cap was removed, people could herd again without much worry.
So, if we can partially get back to pre-GDN days with IOs (and when it comes to Defense values, you can), then a well-built Tanker could herd again, and the only thing stopping him is the aggro cap. If the Devs felt that herding was a problem (and I'm not saying that they do, only if), then the aggro cap is really the only thing left preventing it from happening.
I don't think the devs care if a Tanker can pull 1000 mobs ... its the speed with which it takes a team to kill those 1000 mobs that becomes the issue.
Assumably this is an issue for XP and influence reasons (and drops). Seeing as how the MA system currently allows you to abuse this well past what herding ever allowed, I don't see the issue in giving back (at least partially) the benefits of herding, which was (for me at least) the sheer thrill of tanking that many mobs while at the same time, doing something that the team *needed* me for. That's in addition to it being wildly popular back in the day (despite the opinions of a few on this thread).
And while IO's partially repeal ED/GDN they don't totally negate it ... especially for Tankers (i.e. a fully IO built Inv Tanker still couldn't out pull my I1 Invuln Tanker ... not by a longshot) so I'm not sure where the harm is.
*EDIT* This is not to mention that this game is far along and removed today from the intended levelling curve and general play of I1-4 as well, which the agro cap was originally instituted for. -
Quote:I've done a few AVs solo on mine.Originally Posted by Landeraan
AV solo on a WP/Stone/earth tank??or any other mastery but with that same primary/secondary
And yes it does take a bit of time (same goes for any Tanker though). -
Quote:Agreed on all points.Originally Posted by Calash
Knockdown in Hand Clap would make it a bit more useful. Could also use a bit of spicing up in terms of animation and effect.
Then again, that would make SS/SD a monster in terms of mitigation. Shield Charge, Hand Clap, Foot Stomp timed right could take large groups out of the game very quickly. Stack in Energy Torrent epic and some global recharge and it would be deadly...fun but deadly.
And I think it should be done. -
You tank should handle most anything this game has to throw at it.
I think you may find at some point that it will infact over handle most everything this game can throw at you.
Max protect Invuln Tankers are sort of like buying a race car to go grocery shopping with
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If you listen closely you can almost hear Mod08's footsteps.