Kruunch

Stone Tankers are fodder for Elec/Ther Corruptors (slow burn build) now aren't they?

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there are no good typed defense prime IOs for PBAOEs

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Erradication, +3.13% e/ne def; only takes 3 slots, too.

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And I rest my case.

Unless you're telling the OP that they should be concentrating on typed defenses with their Fire Tanker.

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Having only a lvl 5 tanker, I am starting to consider how I want my tanker to be slotted. I'm going to stick with SO's b/c frankly, I read it can be real exspensive inventing IO's and I'm not responsible with funds fake or real. I consider slotting SS with DAM increase along with making the strikes disorient more...I don't know what are some good ways to slot a inv/ss tanker.

The Duke of Dudes - science tanker - Freedom

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I usually start out with 2 accs, 2-3 dmgs (depending how aggresively I started slotting attacks early on). That is virtually on every Tanker I make. You can skip damages for endRedux if pre-Stamina becomes really unbearable.

For SS doing an SO build (Single Origin enhancements) I usually suggest 1acc, 3 dmg, 1-2 endRedux/recharge (whichever you need more of). This is after you've gotten into Rage. Otherwise I suggest two Accs in the power until then.

Well since Stone/Elec/Arctic doesn't exist yet ....

I can say Stone is a tough Tanker (the toughest in fact out of the box) and ponderous to play (imo) due to the recharge and damage penalties.

Arctic Mastery is decent but Ice Storm can be antithetical to many Tanker builds as many of them require mobs to be in melee range en masse (WP, Inv, SD, etc ...). For Stone Tankers, it might be more of a chore to try to go chasing the mobs that are trying to get out of Ice Storm then the damage and effect is worth (then again combining it with Mud Pots might be win too).

Elec Melee ... big fat MEH (at least from the Brute version) but more potent in a PvP context.

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My Fire/EM has 45% S/L def and as high resists are Fire usually gets (70-ish S/L, capped Fire, etc). Does really well, except against Psi. As someone else mentioned, Oblits in your PBAoEs, Reactives in your armors, Tough, Weave, CJ and *Maneuvers* to put you to cap. Slot some BotZs for the -KB and pick up some ranged def while you're at it (no, you won't cap your positionals). Kinetic Combats, not Makos, in your melee attacks though (and those prices have really gone through the roof lately). You need to sacrifice Hasten for this build, but otherwise, it's not too gimped elsewhere. Sorry, but I don't post builds any more, though you might be able to find one I posted in an older thread that just won't die. If you post your own attempt, I'll be happy to critique.

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I would never suggest maneuvers on anything but a taunt bot (which a Fire Tanker shouldn't be aspiring to ... there are better primaries for that purpose). Waste of endurance for little return.

Also you may find that raising positional defenses is easier then raising typed defenses via IOs ... especially on a Fire Tanker (there are no good typed defense prime IOs for PBAOEs). Also considering that Kinetic Combats are not only expensive ... but literally don't exist right now at WWs (as of last night there wasn't one recipe for sale). Concentrate on melee defense first, ranged defense second and AOE defense third (if at all).

You will never be mistaken for a Stone Tanker but you can get to some fairly decent level of toughness on a Fire Tanker.

Maybe the devs will take out KB in Kheld powers.

It worked for SS

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I usually play trollers but I had a character concept that works better as a tank so I'm trying one out (I have a tendency to stick with a particular character if i like the concept). It'll be invul/*, not sure yet on the secondary. Anyways, I've read before that most tanks if not all normally take taunt and if they didn't would get chastised for it. Are the attacks in tanker secondaries and taunt auras just not enough with gauntlet to maintain aggro?

I was leaning towards not taking taunt but would that get me crap from other people? I primarily spend my time with PUGs and I really only solo for the costume missions (which I just drop nowadays)

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I've taken Taunt on about half the Tankers I've made and it usually sits there and does nothing at the end game, besides hold IO's for good set bonuses.

However when you absolutely need it, there is no substitute (i.e. relying on Gauntlet with a ranged attack for instance).

My general rule of thumb with Taunt is what I plan on doing with the Tanker. Is he going to be a full team and TF Tanker for the most part? If yes, take Taunt.

Is he going to be a soloer and/or mission farmer? If so, don't take Taunt.

Is he going to be a mix of both? That's where you'll have to weigh the pros and cons. For beginning Tankers, I'd usually suggest taking Taunt who aren't soloers/farmers.

As far as getting crap from other people: only if the other people die a lot in your group (whether deservedly so or not)

As a joke I once slotted footstomp for max KB and ran around getting into groups (especially farm groups) just to see their reaction and blaming it on "the patch".

I'm easily amused.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13762449

I'd replace the one in Haymaker at least. Probably both if you're using Jab as a main attack.

Just did an STF with him (although there was a Stone Tanker in the group as well).

He whizzed through the TF itself and skads of Arachnos weren't a problem (this was one area I was nervous about). Although the Stoner took the main tanking parts, the AVs that I had direct agro on from time to time (Dr. Aeon, GW, Scirroco and Mako and all of the lesser ones) were handled with ease.

Lord Recluse ate through me like cheese but this was usually picking up for the Stone Tanker when he went down and I had no support, so not really surprising there. The only concerning part (to me) was the L54 Banes seemed to have their way with me as well which I wasn't too pleased with.

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I've yet to have a Scrapper that has outlasted one of my Tankers in a toe to toe situation.

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That is as it should be, but frankly, I run into a lot of Tanks in TF's and PuG's that my Scrappers can out-survive while dealing a ton of pain in the process. Hell, I ran with a Shield Defense Tank last night whose positional Defense values were LOWER than my Fire/Shield Scrapper (who doesn't have Weave). I was dragging the team behind be with three Tanks in tow through mission after mission... Was exciting, but I just felt sad those Tanks couldn't keep up.

YMMV I guess.

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Yeah the amount of squishy Tankers seems to be in abundance lately and a lot of people seem ok with building the equivelant of tough gimpy Scrappers (although I hate when these types join groups and think they can tank because their AT says Tanker).

I like doing damage and being able to help in the speed of the group but my first priority is to make sure I can handle group tanking and I think all Tankers (who group) should be thinking that way.

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Well, time alone will tell, but I'm fairly sure CP will be replaced with something. Though I'm doubtful of whether that will be a straight out heal. Elec has such great end recovery abilities that I could see that being overpowered by Castle and co. Something like Drain Psyche probably makes more sense, as the regen could be a help. Or maybe a Dull Pain type power. *shrugs* I could be wrong, of course, Fiery Aura does get Consume and Healing Flames, of course. Though I'd be foolish to argue that Consume is better than Power Sink (other than the fact that you can get it much, much earlier).

And maybe it will all just stay the same, heh. You never know.

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I agree that on the surface, a fast recharging direct heal might seem over powered and yeah a regen ability would make more sense from a balance standpoint although functionally I don't think it'd help unless it gave WP/Regen levels of regen in short bursts (i.e. a ghetto version of Fast Healing).

Dunno ... should be interesting though.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13762449

I usually find myself trying to work with the other Tanker to pull together bigger packs, which most times seems to get picked up as Tanker comraderie while being unspoken.

If the Tanker next to me is squishy (as in he/she can't handle their pulls) I'll usually take a look at their power selections and start making good natured jibes like "Stick with me kid, I got Tough/Weave(tm)". In most cases this usually leads them to asking if Tough/Weave (or power X) is really better for their build and a good natured discussion of builds ensues while we're fighting.

I generally build my Tankers for survivability first, so "out lasting" the next guy is rarely something that comes up.

I've yet to have a Scrapper that has outlasted one of my Tankers in a toe to toe situation.

Yeah my bad ... but again it never seems to crop up as a problem (and melee is capped which might be the difference here).

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Thanks Speed_Force ... actually you get well beyond the softcap on my build (Debuffs in Dark Melee), but very nice alternative.

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Yes and no.

It's true that much of the time the debuff from DM will help close the gap but there are enough situations in the game where the attackers will avoid your melee attacks that you may notice the hole in the defenses.

- Enemies attacking from Range. Until you are able to close into melee and successfully hit them, they would still be attacking you at the lower defense values with Range and AoE attacks.

- Too many enemies in melee range. You can have up to 17 enemies attacking you at one time and it is essentially impossible to maintain DM's -tohit debuff on that many targets for very long. Especially if new enemies are cycling in to replace the ones you defeat as fast as they fall.

When fighting on a map set for 4+ players, you can often encounter multiple spawn points where you will have more enemies attacking to see this happen.

If you have a defender in the group adding to your +def or others in melee range to bolster Phalanx Fighting then you are fine, but if you are soloing a map like that (easily done after I16) or teamed with blasters then the lower Defense might become an issue.

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Mmmmm the "no" part is so few and far between to be negligible on my SD Tanker. Keep in mind that I'm talking about making up only 3-5% tops, which the debuffs easily do. My opener is usually SD + SC + DC, which pretty much hits all the mobs in melee range with at least one debuff if not both (covering that little gap easily).

Again mobs with high defense ... well I have absurdly high accuracy in this build (averaging over +100% between global acc and individual acc enhancements) so a miss is a rarity (a 5-10% rarity at most to be exact).

StGabe: I slot my Soul Drain with Obliteration for the bonuses but it also gives me good accuracy and recharge. End consumtion isn't as much of a big deal since it isn't spammable.

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another reason why i tank..i honestly dont trust anyone else too.

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QFT

To what Kioshi said:

High Pain Tolerance and Rise to the Challenge should both be 6 slotted (heals and resists / heals and toHitDebuffs respectively). You can get away with 3 slotting RttC with 3 slots (all heals) but I generally like the bonuses and extra (even if small) debuffs I get out of 6 slotting it.

Numinas will be expensive (on the order of 10-15 mil per recipe) while the Numina unique (+regen/recovery) will run you 100-150mil influence right now (so a full set of Numinas will run you over 200mil influence more then likely). You don't need the Numina's unique, nor do you really need the Regenerative Tissue unique (another expensive one) although the latter is more appropriate.

Two full sets of Blessing of the Zephyr will be expensive as well and is positional defense, so you're shelling out a lot of money for half the returns (positional defense gives 50% of two typed defenses back). Might find better use for those slots (and influence) elsewhere.

Stonefist only really needs 5 slots.

Indomitable will only really needs one slot unless you're really worried about Psi defense.

CJ and SJ only need one slot each (see notes on Blessing of the Zephyr above).

I wouldn't bother slotting Boxing (except with a Touch of Death proc maybe).

Seismic Smash: I wouldn't go with Basilisk's Gaze there (and they are expensive) but instead max this for dmg/rech/end/acc in that order (with a good IO'd set you usually have enough global accuracy not to have to worry about over enhancing individual powers for accuracy ... and SS has a built in +20% accuracy already).

Ice Block ... you would probably get better returns with 6 slotting this with Neuronic Shutdown (Thunderstrike gives positional defense, not typed). Second option is Basilisk's Gaze for +recharge (a tasty 7.5%) in which case you only really need to 4 slot this (unless you want the extra acc/end/rech/hold out of it). Basilisk's Gaze is expensive (I think I sold one of the more common ones for 20 mil last week).

Fault: I actually really like how you IO'd this .... if you have 40%+ global accuracy you shouldn't have to worry about it.

Luck of the Gambler's are currently expensive. Check out Serendipity for a cheap option for defense.

For your resist sets (HPT and MOB) check out Reactive Armor for cheap typed positonal defense (gonna need to add slots).

Throw an additional slot into Stamina and Quick Recovery and put in that Performance Shifter: Chance for End in each. In fact 4 slotting each with Performance Shifter gives you some decent bonuses and takes away any possiblly endurance issues you may face later.

Defensively you want to focus on typed defenses (rather than positional defenses) to build off of Heightened Senses, then HPs and then regen.

Hope some of this helps.

That's basically a solid build (I think the only difference between that and my WP/SM Tanker overall is I took CJ instead of Fault ... but most SM's swear by Fault (and I had to take it before I got into Tough/Weave for heavy tanking)).

The only thing I would really point out is that you only have 2 damaging attacks until L30. You can put off Stamina a little bit, if you wanted to fit in Stone Mallet earlier (and I would suggest going that route ... especially if you are going to be going for accolades later on). You also may want to pick up Tough/Weave earlier if possible (if you're going to be doing a lot of group tanking).

Take one slot out of Stone Mallet and Taunt and stick those in Stamina and Quick Recovery. In those slots, put in Performance Shifter: Chance for End. With just those two IOs, you pretty much never need to look at recovery again (even if you go with a super recharge offensive build).

I'd also suggest getting rid of either Fault, Taunt or Hurl Boulder (probably HB) and picking up Build Up. 80% damage buff on Stone Melee isn't trivial and because of SM's quick attack chain, gets fully realized.

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... really, a RO network member is asking how you kill +4's without a tank?! If the 54's are eating your SO invuln, just get a defense buff to get you to 45%.

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My SD Tanker is above the soft cap and with adding in the debuffs from DM, I still get hit constantly by L52s (L54s that much moreso). I'm still not getting how you stay alive (not to mention killing fast enough to make it worthwhile).

Do they just not hit you (and are you all hovering at max range or something)?

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I've never been on a team with G_Tanker (heck, I don't even know what server he plays), but you can definitely make groups that just neuter enemies. For example, two colds will softcap the entire team. A couple sonics/thermals could resistance cap the team. Now add in debuffs like rad, dark, or Kin to reduce enemy damage even further.

Survivability anecdote: 6 dark Defenders and 2 storm defenders vs Ghost Widow on the STF. We had so much resistance (Shadow Fall, epic shields) and damage debuffs (Darkest Night / Twilight's Grasp) that her 400 dmg/tick hold ended up doing 10 damage per tick... when it hit (we were softcapped). Heck, we tanked 3 AVs with pretty almost no issue. (There may have been 2-3 deaths total.)

Then look at the buffs (Accelerate Metabolism, Fulcrum, etc) and debuffs (Enervating Field, Lingering Radiation, Sonic Disruption, Tar Patch, etc) that turn enemies into jelly.

Support heavy teams are really a sight to behold.

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Oh yeah I've totally seen hand picked Tankerless teams in action that make me wonder why I play a Tanker in the first place.

But G_Tanker has been maintaining that he's doing this with PUGs, which is astounding to me (even moreso when you considered we're talking about speed as well as survivability for a farm).

Now it might just be the server I play on (Justice) ... I'm lucky to get the right mix of DPS to control much less being able to handpick the AT combos that I'd prefer. If he isn't having that issue (say playing on Freedom or Champion since they have higher pops) then that would explain to me how he can get these groups on the fly and why L54 farms might not be as onerous as they have been for me from a speed point of view (survivability usually isn't an issue running a couple of Tankers through those).

BTW I've noticed a proliferation of really squishy Tankers coming up through the AE lately .... L50 Stone and Invuln Tankers should not be dropping dead before my Shield Tanker (which never dies) or even more sadly, my Spines/Fire Scrapper.

Then again I've seen a plethora of brand new players (to the game itself) as well so that would explain it I guess.

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If a self heal of some type isn't offered in ElA, would you prefer +168% regen over Aid Self (not to mention that you can slot most of the afore mentioned into Aid Self)?

If not, then what do you give up to keep Stamina? Fighting Pool? Leaping/Flying (assuming you're trying to build defense)? Speed (Hasten)?

On a total resist set, you need every source of defense you can get AND a heal (as witnessed by Fire Tankers that attempt heavy tanking). Regen is nice but barely cuts it at WP levels in my experience.

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I'm not an expert at Elec Armor by any means and I won't pretend to be. My main point was that 168% regen isn't a trivial amount to just pickup somewhere. If you have AS with 95% heal slotting and recharging every 10s, it's exactly 1/4 of Aid Self, passively. (If you're using Aid Self every 10, you're spending ~30% of your animation time doing nothing but healing. That's a ton.)

I'm not saying I'd take 168% regen instead of Aid Self - I'd take both if I could. (As I said, I've never made a build without Fitness I've been happy with, so I'd be taking it anyways. That's just my opinion.)

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I can't disagree and like you, I have little first hand knowledge of ElA (a 20s El/El Brute for me) at the end game so we're just spitballing here really.

From my experience (and here I'm likening it to a Fire Tanker as that seems the closest corralary) for all the regen/defenses I can build up on a Fire Tanker, I know the largest telling factor in his survival is Healing Flames. Without that (or even a slower version) that Tanker's survivability goes wayyyyyy down.

Now my experience with Brutes in general is this: there are some Brutes that can be built as "Tankers" and some Brute combos that simply can't, given end game tanking (and that's really what my focus is on here but it includes full group tanking at almost any point within the game). Brutes have the luxury of having access to an amazing amount of support in full group situations between Dominators, MMs and Corruptors, while Tankers only really get relief from Controllers and Defenders by and large. Porting ElA over to Tankers may end up exposing just how much support a Brute really needs to effectively tank a full TF (again this is just spitballing).

Out of the box, I see an ElA Tanker being a cross between Fire and Will Power ... the largest missing factor here of course being the healing. Since an ElA Tanker will never have WP's regen and doesn't have (currently) a fast heal to depend upon, as it stands right now, my supposition is that said Tanker will have to depend upon either its secondary (i.e. Dark Melee) or power pool (Aid Self) to do heavy tanking.

If that turns out to be correct, my further supposition is that since not every ElA Tanker is going to choose DM as its primary, and eventually at least some of those ElA/* Tankers are going to want to do heavy tanking, they will have to either sacrifice offense (i.e. Hasten; which also effects some of their defense) or Stamina or some defense to get into Aid Self (assuming here that the Fighting Pool is a must for heavy tanking on an ElA (which I think it will be)).

My contention (and I totally agree with you about trying to build a Stamina-less Tanker previously) is that it might be possible to build a Staminaless ElA Tanker and totally not miss it with the combination of PS and x2 CP (PS itself can possibly be made to replace Stamina as has been noted).

Health, while certainly a big (of subtle) part of taking the Fitness pool, in my mind becomes ancilliary to the need of having an on demand heal of some sort. So in this case (and again only in my spitballing opinion) I think Aid Self becomes much of a greater need then Fitness for an ElA Tanker, even with the combined common virtues of Health and Stamina.

Time will tell (and this could get totally blown out of the water if CP gets replaced with Healing Flames or similar power, which would make ElA Tankers *extremely* attractive in my mind).

If a self heal of some type isn't offered in ElA, would you prefer +168% regen over Aid Self (not to mention that you can slot most of the afore mentioned into Aid Self)?

If not, then what do you give up to keep Stamina? Fighting Pool? Leaping/Flying (assuming you're trying to build defense)? Speed (Hasten)?

On a total resist set, you need every source of defense you can get AND a heal (as witnessed by Fire Tankers that attempt heavy tanking). Regen is nice but barely cuts it at WP levels in my experience.

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Ah yes... here we have one of the many "Talking Heads" that are so infamous on the forums that are under the belief that Brutes cannot tank. To you, I can only say... well, nothing really. It's not worth the effort to try to convince you. I do frequently play on large teams with my WM/Elec Brute, however. As for "mediocre resists"... if you consider roughly 80% S/L (with tough), 55% F/C, 90%E, 55%Neg, and 50% Psi resist (rough estimates, mind you) to be "mediocre", then I don't know what to tell you. They're better than most other tanks' resistances.

As for tanking Hamidon on a LGTF... why on earth were you jumping when all you need to do is taunt? You did have teammates, right? Let me guess.. you don't have taunt on your Brute because Brutes aren't Tanks.

Suffice to say, I have no problems tanking for large teams on my /Elec Brute. Maybe it's a matter of playstyle, maybe it's a matter of mitigation via my primary (WarMace); regardless it's pretty shortsighted to say that /Elec (Elec/ for Tankers) is poor for large teams. Many people have demonstrated time and time again that pretty much any primary/secondary combination in the game can be made viable. If you don't like Electric Armor, please don't play it.

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Brutes can physically tank.

Most people who play Brutes cannot (meaning they don't build them to).

(highly subjective personal experience)

It's not that expensive actually.

Tough/Weave/CJ

Multi-Strikes in your auras and Obliterations in your PBAOEs (including Consume and Burn especially). Mako's Bites in your melee attacks and Reactive Armors in your resist sets (while they are typed defense they still notch up your positional defenses without using extra slots). If you have the spare slots you can go Aegis (5 needed for full aoe defense buff) or even Titanium Coating (6 slots for melee defense).

I'm not sure if you can get to soft cap, but I've gotten my Spines/Fire Scrapper to 34% melee (20% other positions) which seems to do the trick (no more squishiness).