Kruunch

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Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).

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I'm replying to this again as an excuse to float my idea for a streamlined Enhancement system. Part of it is much improved Enhancements at level 1 (though not quite SO level.) I'll keep it short and sweet (numbers are approximates):

Origin Enhancements: These are the standard power Enhancements, equal to the current SOs. They become available at level 15 and you can only slot your own origin.

Training Enhancements: These Enhancements represent basic power training and are only 75% as effective as Origin Enhancements. However, they are quite cheap and available right from level 1 to 50.

Invention Enhancements: These are crafted Enhancements which increase in effectiveness by level. They start at level 10 equal to Training Enhancements, at level 30 they're equal to Origin Enhancements, and they continue to increase in power from there.

Note: Training and Origin Enhancements expire and need to be "refreshed", Invention Enhancements do not.

This would mean a boost to power levels early on, and enemies could probably get a bit of a boost to compensate. However, remember that slots are still limited.

Feel free to poke holes in this idea. Should I post it in the Suggestions forum, or just forget it?

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It's not a bad idea but why 75% effective? Why not just go the whole way? Balance wise there is virtually no difference for the content we're talking about.

Also changing over to all SO's is logistically easier (just rewrite the values for current TOs and DOs) and also covers price scaling since it's already in place.

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How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"

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This isn't limited to tankers. I see this from Brutes, Blasters, SoAs and most recently Dominators.


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Which is why my suggestion would effect every AT equally and at the discretion of the player (using the appropriate enhancements rather than trying to decide what's the best blanket fix).

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Sometimes people just get into spamming attacks and not formulating a strategy of how to cope with a staminaless, sometimes enhancementless, build.

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I've heard a couple of other people come up with this rationale and it is at best, self defeating. Let me explain why ...

CoH is a commercial enterprise in a (now) very competitive market. There are dozens of MMOs for players to choose from and soon to be multiple comic book themed MMOs as well. Just like in any other competitive market you must cater to your customers and potential customers (the customer is always right ... even when they're not) in an effort to provide a product/service that people want to use over your competitor's version.

So whether people should or shouldn't be intuitively rationing their blue bar is immaterial ... a good portion aren't and they are being frustrated (we've all seen these posts and in-game comments). Eventually that frustration turns into cancelled game accounts or free trials that are never realized as subscriptions.

In other words, frustrating the customer is costing CoH money. To what extent? I wouldn't know. But it doesn't take a marketing genius to see the same complaint come up time and again and imagine that its not ingratiating itself among those who complain .... those being your paying customers.

Heraclea: SO level enhancements would allow endRedux to actually mean something prior to L22. Slotting endRedux with TOs or SOs currently doesn't do anything appreciable, practically speaking.

While inherent Stamina would make the game more playable (especially at early levels) I sincerely doubt that would get done simply because of the amount of mechanics that would need to be changed (unless you're saying to keep the Fitness pool AND have inherent Stamina .... which is interesting but I think too radical for Posi to pull the trigger on that idea).

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Never said this was the fastest or best way to level. Just a quick way to try out that tank build you came up with in Mids

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Awww...but it'd be funner to run them through the TFs

Sadly, the ITF has ruined me on some tankers *glares at DA & FA* Love the TF so much, and I've yet to see a decent DA or FA tank survive that TF on their own.

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Fire and Dark Tankers do just fine in the ITF. Badly built Tankers of all varieties do not.

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Okay, then I've just yet to see a good built FA or DA Tanker tank that TF.

Or do you mean Set IO'ed out DA and FA tankers when you say good built?

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Yes I mean IOs in their builds as well. That should be taken for granted as part of "well built".

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And yes, every power is endurance efficient if you wait an hour between attacks (what a totally silly thing to say).

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You have no idea what endurance efficient means, do you?

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Not in the context you seem to be using it in.

Endurance efficiency, practically speaking, means how much endurance you use per chain of attacks.

Not sure why you would calculate it for a single attack in a vacuum if that's what you're (or Starsman are) doing.

Just wow.

I never thought of putting that in Footstomp before. I might give that a go, thanks!

I'd keep the 3rd spot in Stamina (endurance being all important) if for no other reason, then to stick Performance Shifter: Chance for End in there later on.

Tough Hide: That's your call if you're running out of slots.

Well the price would have to be scaled to what TOs and DOs currently cost per level range, just like it is per level range with SOs (i.e. L30 SOs cost less then L40 SOs).

I'd even say keep them scaled entirely at TO prices until L25 in fact (where normal SO pricing takes over). The idea here is to alleviate one of the largest beefs in the game, while at the sametime allowing new players to enjoy their heroes at first impression rather than becoming frustrated with them (basic rule of sales ... first impression is everything).

Beginners luck wouldn't be bad either (or similar buff) but I'm not sure that would apply across all ATs (thinking of those with toggle buffs/debuffs).

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In my last calculator, SS benchmarks 2.6 on endurance efficiency. Fire Melee 2.3 and the normal tanker 3.1. (lower numbers are better.)

The worst scrappers benchmarks at 2.3 with scrapper fire melee benchmarking at 1.8.

That is the sets on isolation, though, no armor toggles accounted for.

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Small correction ... SM is more end intensive then EM. EM is actually one of the better endurance efficient sets (mostly because of the long animation times of a few powers).

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You misread his statement. He wasn't saying energy melee is worse than stone. He' saying it's better than stone, as it uses less endurance for the damage it does.

Animation time and number of power selections has nothing to do with it, unless someone is using AEs while other attacks are recharging. Without using hurl, Stone is equally as endurance efficient as axe and mace, for example. Being able to attack faster does not affect damage per endurance, which is what you responded to.

Stone's reputation for being hard on endurance is only supported by those that lack the self-control to attack just as fast as every other set

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You're right, I did misread it (thanks). I thought he said "intensive" and he said "effective", which I will then say ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!?!??!

Super Strength one of the most endurance effective Tanker secondaries?! I think someone is underestimating the Rage crash (especially when coupled with Hasten crashes which many take)).

And animation times have everything to do endurance efficiency as they directly impact the time of the attack chain. Unless you're talking per power, which is meaningless in the context of actually playing the game.

And yes, every power is endurance efficient if you wait an hour between attacks (what a totally silly thing to say).

How many times do we see new Tankers (and new players) come up here and say something along the lines of "I'm trying a Tanker out and I'm always running out of endurance. Does it get any better?"

This has been an age old problem since the early days of beta. How many subscribing customers have to get frustrated and lose the love for the game before this issue is addressed.

Specifically the L1-20 portion of levelling. This applies to almost all ATs hero and villain side, but especially to Tankers who run dry *really* quickly.

Suggested Fixed: Do away with TOs and DOs and make SOs available at L1. This would alleviate much of the frustration and tedium that is the current mode of play in the L1-20 game (imo).

I tried farming on my Inv/SS ... the grass grew 9mm in that time, and was considerably more interesting to watch then my Tanker.

I promptly made a Spines/Fire Scrapper

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I don't think Endurance is a problem at all once you have Stamina (or Quick Recovery), at least no more than it's designed to be, and I think the Stamina debate is game-wide, it's not a Tanker issue.

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This is fairly true.

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i like how people seem to always skip over me when i post

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---keep the current taunt stuff in there
---60-80% reduction to end cost for all Tanker primary powers.
---add a bar that adds buffs to tanks based upon what they have aggrod:

0 aggrod = 49.99% damage buff
1 aggrod = 33.33% damage buff
2 aggrod = 16.66% damage buff
3 aggrod = n/a
4 aggrod = 3.33% buff to primary powers (kinda like power boost)
5 aggrod = 6.66% buff to pp
6 aggrod = 9.99% buff to pp
7 aggrod = 13.33%
8 aggrod = 16.65%
9 aggrod = 19.98%

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no one has anything to say about it?

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I think damage buffing Tankers across the board is needless and by and large will be dismissed by the devs (for a host of reasons, mostly AT balance related).

Certain Tanker sets could use a bump (Ice Melee) but that should be confined to those sets.

Ok you're right ... Fire and Dark Tankers can't tank the ITF.

*rolls eyes*

*EDIT* If the whole point to your novella like posts was that SO built Fire and Dark Tankers can't tank the ITF without lots of support, then I agree with you. This is also a water is wet type of point but you seem to really need someone to agree with you so there ya go.

Careful you don't pull a hammy with all that back pedalling

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For the record, she's WP/SS, and I'm currently working on getting her over 4end/sec recovery. I'm a little spoiled.

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Super Strength is the second most endurance effective tanker set, followed by Energy Melee. Rage's buff pump up your damage and the crash every so often is not hard enough to bring that down to normal endurance levels.

In my last calculator, SS benchmarks 2.6 on endurance efficiency. Fire Melee 2.3 and the normal tanker 3.1. (lower numbers are better.)

The worst scrappers benchmarks at 2.3 with scrapper fire melee benchmarking at 1.8.

That is the sets on isolation, though, no armor toggles accounted for.

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Small correction ... SM is more end intensive then EM. EM is actually one of the better endurance efficient sets (mostly because of the long animation times of a few powers).

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My only Tanker is WP, so I guess I don't see it, except when fighting Carnies and other things that directly drain endurance (especially Carnies, who take pretty big chunks when their death blow hits). Is endurance really that big an issue for other primaries?

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Roll one up and level via paper missions. Especially solo ... you'll see what we mean *really* quickly.

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If you want a farm toon, I'd go with rolling up another toon. Dark/SS isn't exactly going to meet your requirements in this regard.

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Can you not do something odd with lots of anti psi precautions and farm mother mayhem's mish ?

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Well you can farm anything really ... but usually when people say farm, speed is tantamount to being good at farming. Dark/SS isn't going to break any speed records at farming.

That's all I meant. If levelling up another toon is daunting for the OP, then time to break out the high recharge builds

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Castle's seen the proposal. His reply indicates dev action is unlikely. I don't know if Starsman contacted Positron, but that might be something to do in the future if he has another idea. The nature of the recent Domm changes were a result of Posi and Castle talking. But then again, Posi has often said he's got a soft spot for Domms.


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Here is the thing, I solidly think tankers have issues. There are two mayor issues and you may not agree with them at all but they are the true issues I can justify from a very analytical and objective point of view:

1) Teams. In teams a second tanker just brings 64% the damage a scrapper or blaster would (stalkers and brutes and now Dominators can be considered to be in the same ballpark,) while bringing none of the utility a defender or controller would(corruptors and masterminds also can bring the utilities and worse: Masterminds are designed to tank.)


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About the damage .... so?

About the utility ... I don't necessarily agree since there's too broad a scope in your statement here. Adding another Ice/FF Troller to a team that has one would not make the team more efficient then adding another Fire/Fire Tanker. Assuming by efficient, you mean speed and/or survivability.

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2) Solo the tanker is the most endurance inefficient AT in the game. Defenders may in theory be close but other than force fields, all have a form of damage increase or resistance debuff that can increase their output enough. The order they get these tools may not be the most optimal, though, but they all get them.

A damage boost of sort would help team slightly by making the tanker team damage contribution a bit more acceptable even if not the reason for the invite while solo it would adjust endurance efficiency.


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Or we could just adjust the endurance for Tanker version of powers across the board (or do the fast fix of adding a 20% endurance saving to Gauntlet or something similar).

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I am not sure if Castle agrees with these issues, I been wanting to get his feedback on this but either he never been open to comment in PMs or my inbox been too full for him to do so . either way, got to admit, I would respect a PM enough to keep silent about his opinion in the open, would not make me agree with a dismissal, though.


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In the past, I've found Castle to be fairly responsive and not evasive (that whole secrecy thing). He's also been self correcting when he's been in error. Unfortunately the devs can't answer every question a player might bring up to them directly. In this instance he did answer yours and did so in a way as to not mire himself down in debate about it.

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Now, lets just pretend Castle agrees with these issues: he is definitively (based on his response here) not sold on a damage boost, and if we can't sell it to Castle, we may be even less likely to sell it to Positron mainly because these guys got to agree in meetings about what they going to do. Posi has the final "nay", but the "yay"s tend to require agreement.


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Mom said no, so we're going to ask Dad now? The thing I surmise from Castle's response is that he doesn't think Gauntlet needs a damage boost, and from the shortness of his post, I don't think he regards Gauntlet as having any outstanding issues that need to draw upon resources right now.

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Now, this does not mean I think this thread is suddenly fail, but alternative ways of thought may be needed.


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No "may" about it. But I agree that I don't think this means "fail".

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For the time being, I'm pushing back to the drawing board and try to craft a more specific proposal for the issues (separate proposals for the team and solo issues.)

This is not me giving up, this is me changing approach, as my goal is not getting tankers more damage but to improve tanker stack-ability in teams and make solo play a bit more fair.

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Ummm your goal was *definitely* trying to improve Tanker damage ... since adding damage was the sole point to your thread.

My feeling is that anything that mentions damage (or adversely effects what little damage balance there is) and Tankers is going to be fairly ignored (if politely).

Endurance issues, while effecting damage output over longer periods of time I think might be more open to discussion and this is the area I would approach (especially within the first 20 levels).

I'm sort of on the fence with Tanker stackability within teams. While there is definitely diminishing returns on average with adding each additional Tanker to a team, the only thing it really impacts is the speed of the team (specific situations not withstanding) and I'm not sure that the devs really care if an optimal team does a map in 1:30 and an all Tanker team does a map in 2:30.

Soloing: There isn't a single Tanker combo that can't solo. So I assume your issue is the speed with which they solo. In that case, they're in the same boat as Defenders and Controllers (two other non-damage priority ATs) at the early stages of levelling (L1-30) and at the later stages this becomes more dependant upon how the player has built their toon and what set combos they've chosen (for Tankers, Controllers and Defenders).

In other words it's either a non-issue or an issue that impacts half of the ATs blue side. My recommendation would be not to go the solo route in your discussions (and the endurance route would apply to solo play so not even worth mentioning it).

P.S. - I wouldn't be opposed to your original idea here, but it would have to be in the context of a change of vision for both Tankers and Scrappers. My thinking is the opposite of others in that I think Tanker's should have the best single target melee damage and their AOEs should be mitigation based with low or no damage (i.e. Fault, Handclap, etc ...) and Scrappers should have more damaging AOEs and less then Tanker base damage versus single targets with regards to base damage (criticals still apply though) and no AOE mitigation at all.

Sorry Pog ... kind of lost this thread.

The current build I'm working towards is a mix of heavy tanking (I always want to be able to tank anything in the game ... with ease) and damage (I don't like slowing my team down).

I'd estimate this build would cost around 800mil if bought straight out. Drop the LotGs and Hamios to bring it in under 400mil (you *HAVE* to have the Miracle and Numina uniques to run a high recharge damage oriented Inv/SS Tanker or you'll just be sucking wind).

One of the largest misconceptions about Inv Tanker builds is that you need anywhere near soft capped defense. My current build has about 25% typed defenses with no foe in range (this build has 29%) and I've tanked everything in the game, including Recluse and Hami.

This build is about 15s off of perma-Hasten (+145% with Hasten on).

For PvP I'd go a totally different route but I genuinely dislike the PvP in CoH so I don't bother any more. My previous PvP build (from when PvP first came out) had 3 travel powers which I found very useful (tport, super speed and sj). Don't know if the philosophy still holds up (I know Port Foe got nerfed into oblivion). So if PvP is your main thrust, this build would probably not be for you (although I might take it for a spin in RV and see how it does in the near future).

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Kruunch: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Zinger-Dam%(A)
Level 2: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(15), Dct'dW-Rchg(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 6: Boxing -- T'Death-Dam%(A)
Level 8: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(9), RctvArm-EndRdx(11), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(11)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(17), Heal-I(46)
Level 18: Invincibility -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(19), HO:Cyto(19), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(34), Rec'dRet-ToHit(43), GSFC-Build%(43)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(46)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx(34)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Rage -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit(29), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(37), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(40), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctvArm-EndRdx(31)
Level 32: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), EndRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(36), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(36), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(36), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(37), Mocking-Rchg(37)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg(40), EndRdx-I(40)
Level 41: Char -- BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(A), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(42), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(42), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Entrpc-Acc/Dmg(A), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Entrpc-Dmg/Rchg(45), Entrpc-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Entrpc-Heal%(46)
Level 47: Fire Ball -- Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Posi-Dam%(48), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Resist Physical Damage -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ResDam-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
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[u]Set Bonus Totals:[u]<ul type="square">[*]5% DamageBuff(Smashing)[*]5% DamageBuff(Lethal)[*]5% DamageBuff(Fire)[*]5% DamageBuff(Cold)[*]5% DamageBuff(Energy)[*]5% DamageBuff(Negative)[*]5% DamageBuff(Toxic)[*]5% DamageBuff(Psionic)[*]11.1% Defense(Smashing)[*]11.1% Defense(Lethal)[*]6.13% Defense(Fire)[*]6.13% Defense(Cold)[*]9.25% Defense(Energy)[*]9.25% Defense(Negative)[*]3% Defense(Psionic)[*]7.06% Defense(Melee)[*]6.13% Defense(Ranged)[*]4.56% Defense(AoE)[*]4.05% Max End[*]4% Enhancement(Heal)[*]75% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[*]41% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*]5% FlySpeed[*]119.5 HP (6.38%) HitPoints[*]5% JumpHeight[*]5% JumpSpeed[*]MezResist(Confused) 2.75%[*]MezResist(Held) 2.75%[*]MezResist(Immobilize) 7.7%[*]MezResist(Stun) 2.2%[*]MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%[*]7% (0.12 End/sec) Recovery[*]42% (3.29 HP/sec) Regeneration[*]2.84% Resistance(Fire)[*]2.84% Resistance(Cold)[*]1.26% Resistance(Energy)[*]1.26% Resistance(Negative)[*]5% RunSpeed[/list]------------
[u]Set Bonuses:[u]
[u]Reactive Armor[u]
(Temp Invulnerability)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 1.1%[*] 1.25% Defense(Energy,Negative), 0.63% Defense(Ranged)[*] 1.25% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.63% Defense(Melee)[/list][u]Doctored Wounds[u]
(Dull Pain)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%[*] 1.26% Resistance(Fire,Cold)[*] 4% Enhancement(Heal)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Haymaker)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Reactive Armor[u]
(Unyielding)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 1.1%[*] 1.25% Defense(Energy,Negative), 0.63% Defense(Ranged)[*] 1.25% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.63% Defense(Melee)[/list][u]Luck of the Gambler[u]
(Combat Jumping)<ul type="square">[*] 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Numina's Convalescence[u]
(Health)<ul type="square">[*] 12% (0.94 HP/sec) Regeneration[/list][u]Rectified Reticle[u]
(Invincibility)<ul type="square">[*] 1.88% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.94% Defense(Melee)[/list][u]Performance Shifter[u]
(Stamina)<ul type="square">[*] 5% JumpSpeed, 5% JumpHeight, 5% FlySpeed, 5% RunSpeed[*] 35.1 HP (1.88%) HitPoints[*] 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Knockout Blow)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Luck of the Gambler[u]
(Tough Hide)<ul type="square">[*] 10% (0.78 HP/sec) Regeneration[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Adjusted Targeting[u]
(Rage)<ul type="square">[*] 2% DamageBuff(All)[*] 1.26% Resistance(Energy,Negative)[*] 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Reactive Armor[u]
(Tough)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Immobilize) 1.1%[*] 1.25% Defense(Energy,Negative), 0.63% Defense(Ranged)[*] 1.25% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 0.63% Defense(Melee)[/list][u]Luck of the Gambler[u]
(Weave)<ul type="square">[*] 10% (0.78 HP/sec) Regeneration[*] 21.1 HP (1.13%) HitPoints[*] 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Mocking Beratement[u]
(Taunt)<ul type="square">[*] 1.8% Max End[*] MezResist(Held) 2.75%[*] 2.5% Defense(Smashing,Lethal), 1.25% Defense(Melee)[*] 3.13% Defense(Fire,Cold), 1.56% Defense(AoE)[*] 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Obliteration[u]
(Foot Stomp)<ul type="square">[*] MezResist(Stun) 2.2%[*] 3% DamageBuff(All)[*] 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Basilisk's Gaze[u]
(Char)<ul type="square">[*] 2.5% Defense(Energy,Negative), 1.25% Defense(Ranged)[*] 2% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[*] 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Entropic Chaos[u]
(Fire Blast)<ul type="square">[*] 10% (0.78 HP/sec) Regeneration[*] MezResist(Confused) 2.75%[*] 2.25% Max End[*] 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Positron's Blast[u]
(Fire Ball)<ul type="square">[*] 2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery[*] 1.58% Resistance(Fire,Cold)[*] 9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] 6.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Steadfast Protection[u]
(Resist Physical Damage)<ul type="square">[*] 3% Defense(All)[/list]

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Keep rereading this until the light bulb goes off. Semantical misdirection bores me.

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*chuckle* To quote a man, "I accept your apology."

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I agree with Kruunch: you are systematically misreading what he wrote.

What I understood from what he said is:
If you meet someone level 50 who took the time &amp; effort to fully equip the toon with something else than SO, you can assume that the player has at least some clue about the toon.

I have seen enough toons to say that is true even for Fire/Kin controllers. Purpled-out fire/kin =&gt; dedicated player.

You can always find counter-examples but IO-ed out toons are a sign of dedication from the player behind the keyboard.

And if you pick up someone else build... it's one thing to select the powers, it's another to buy all the necessary IOs.

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Sort of ... my main point was building a character isn't as simple as copying a build and throwing influence at it (i.e. I've seen plenty of IO'd toons who play like crap).

In other words, using and/or copying a guide is only the first baby steps to building a character. Levelling up the toon, having it face a broad spectrum of challenges, pushing the toon to its max capability (or more specfically, your max capability if that applies), rebuilding the toon to meet/exceed your expectations and final build requirements (this might happen over and over again) which should include some form of investment in IOs (doesn't have to be billions or even hundreds of millions .... to date, I've only spent over 100mil on one of my toons)).

*THAT'S* building a toon.

G_Tanker is just being arbitrary and trying to pick a fight over semantical distinctions. Shrug.

If you want a farm toon, I'd go with rolling up another toon. Dark/SS isn't exactly going to meet your requirements in this regard.

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It took you 10 days?

I personally have farmed someone from 1-32 in one run of a non exploit farm. Luts on City02, high ambushes, large mobs, defendable objects. 8 man team hits the game's render cap on every ambush.

Takes about an hour.

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I think you'll find that experience scales past a certain point. Each subsequent map returns less experience by ratio (in other words, the next map you'll get 3 levels and the next 2 levels and so on).

And 10 days at 2 hours a day ... 20 hours which some people marathon over 2 days. Yes you can probably do it in less then that. This is more for the average Joe and/or returning player who doesn't want to do the whole level grind.

P.S. - If you've run on a better arc ... post it

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Noted.

I still don't believe anything like this is necessary.

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then can you explain why invul is ok to buff to s/l cap and fire is not?

cause im STILL trying to figure out how you justify that one

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FA adds more damage output, has a fast heal and an endurance recovery power and Invuln does not.

That was easy

Although thematically it doesn't fit well (I yell at you and somehow I use less endurance?!) the idea aleviates one of the bigger problems for Tankers (endurance). I like this better then a damage hike.

The reason I'm not crazy about a damage hike (to 80-84% of Scrapper dmg) is that it would be blurring that line a little too much between Scrappers and Tankers (not to mention Brutes once the expansion comes out). One could argue that you can build a Scrapper that can be as survivable as a Tanker and they would be right for all intents and purposes ... but you don't cure one ill be making another.