Kitsune9tails

How about the ability to right click any friendly buff and suppress it for 60 seconds?

The ones that are that smart don't get kidnapped.

By the way, I'd like some tilesets that allow my villains to kidnap people from their homes, please. I'd like to occaisionally fight my way through security guards, bodyguards, cops, heroes, and even fiesty citizens to kidnap someone rather than other villains. Please?

Also, kidnapping citizens from Police Precincts, Casinos, Carnivals, Offices and just about anything but caves works, too. Just as long as some haven't been 'pre-kidnapped' from other villains.

heh, good point.

...SR is a conundrum.

It's an old question around here. Would you rather have:

- A large, non-stacking bonus, or
- Several small stacking bonuses, or
- Both, and a hard cap to how much it can help, or
- Some wierd mix?

It really seems like the simplest solution should be to figure out the biggest bonus that any set of set bonuses should be able to give to an aspect, and have a cap.

For instance, the maximum +defense from set bonuses is +10% (or whatever). The maximum total ToHit from Set Bonuses is +12.5% (or whatever). Done. Then you can eliminate all the 'same bonus doesn't stack above 5 instances' code.

To decide whether a stackable bonus is overpowered or not, multiply it by 5. Some builds will be able to stack it that high. Many other builds will be able to add 5 other similar set bonuses on top of that.

You risk 5k to price an item at 50k. If that item sells at 100k, you get 95k.

You risk 1 inf to price an item at 10 inf. If that item then sells at 100k, you get 95k.

I think once the market steadies, you'll see sales amounts slowly creeping down, as sellers try to get away with less and less risk, and buyers try to match them.

Well, okay, so in my example Kitsune9tails makes 80-100k, and you save several million inf. I'm still not sad and crying yet. Are you?

Now in my example Kitsune9tails isn't trading her rare IO for another rare IO because she's not concerned about it; she can't use it herself, she's not teamed, she just wants to empty her tray. The last thing on her mind is taking an hour off from stuff she considers fun to haggle with some 50. So she just dumps the IO at WentPrime. Any money she gets over her asking price is gravy.

Friendly advice: if it is possible that people will be creeping up on prices from below, give your item a wierd random price like 81056 inf instead of 80k. You'll be glad you did.

An Ebay style system might also work, but it's a moot point in comparison to this system...level 30s aren't going to be able to buy anything that level 50s want anyway.

Taser didn't get the IO in my example because he didn't drop by WentPrime and put in a buy order (his bad), but the IO trade works just as well.

Software to match the lowest order to the lowest offer is not a bad idea, but it may be a moot point if buy orders are filled instantly. In such a case, it would actually effectively be first come first served, with highest order being the 'tiebreaker'.

Venture has a good point, but I see it working like this:

1- Level 50 Venture decides he wants to acquire and sell a level 30 special IO. Venture values this IO at 100 million inf, because he hates exemping down, and even exemped, he'd have to run 100 Story Arcs to get a rare Story Arc IO to drop (assuming a 1% drop rate for rares).

2- Venture pops into WentPrime for a look. None are available at the moment. He puts in a buy order...but for how much? The last 10 went for a paltry 100k, but what if another 50 gets the same idea, or there are already other buy orders in? He puts in an order for 30 million to seal the deal. Way above what a level 30 is going to offer, well below his actual limit. He's happy.

3- Clueless Kitsune9tails wanders into WentPrime and puts up the IO for sale right quick in between adventures. Seeing that the item is going for arond 100k, she sets her price at 80k to make sure it sells. Boom! It goes for 30 million! She is set for life and very happy. She runs off to start a costume contest.

4- Venture is notified of his buy, a steal at 30 million. He turns around and sells it to Taser for 200 million. Now he, Taser, and Kitsune9tails are all happy.

Now I do see the point that level 30s are never going to be able to buy this level 30 IO at this rate. But they are rare, so it's not like you can count on ever seeing one anyway. Instead, level 30s who find any rare that any 50 wants are going to be rich beyone their wildest dreams.

I can deal with that trade off.

Well, my highest level is 42, so I don't exist.

But if I DID exist, I'd say that since you are only going to trade/deal with other 50s anyway, it doesn't matter whether you use WentPrime to do so.

It's very likely that Wentprime will be for n00bs like me and the 50s will have their own exclusive off-market market.

I'm fine with that.

It depends. It's not giving them away if she posts them for an amount she's happy with, and actually gets, rather than some huge but fair price no one is willing to part with.

Now if she actually has someone she can conveniently trade them with, that's different.

But WentPrime is only a click away. When the inventory gets full, a lot of people are going to glance at their friends list, and if noone is on, off to Wents they'll go.

A lot depends on how often and quickly you can rebid on an item. If people are allowed to creep up on prices one inf at a time, they'll kill themselves doing it. If there is some kind of reasonable limit, nearly every successful sale will net you hundreds or thousands more than your asking price.

The average player who never comes to the boards, doesn't read guides, tutorials, or popup boxes:

- As a buyer, he will offer 80-120% of the highest recent sale price of the item, if he wants it, and if that amount is less than 50% of his cash on hand.

- As a seller, he will price his item at 80-120% of the most recent sale price, spending up to 20% of his cash on hand of the list price.

Most players, who are not trying to game the system, are not going to be selling things for 1 inf or offering 2 inf for rare-looking items.

Now a significant minority if players will betrying to game the system.

Those are the guys who will be squealing when their influence/item transfer gets intercepted, and crowing when they earn millions from selling a common TO. They will be complaining about the fact that they are constantly losing sales to people who undervalue their items. They will be moaning about the short listing times, high listing fees, and 'having to buy back their own items'. They'll be lobbying for a larger transaction inventory, and for a way to 'label' items to advertise their own sales.

Most people will sell and buy based on gut feelings. They will sell frequently (often making much more than they intended) and buy on the first try.

IMHO.

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The sociology and psychology of economics here is fascinating. All this drama from a simple system designed around pricing an item or offering for an item based on gut feeling alone.

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Except that showing prices doesn't drive down prices in other games either. It seems to drive them UP.

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No, it doesn't. I play EQ right now where showing prices almost always leads to prices being lowered. I've seen it happen today.

What game are you talking about. If that game has a straight or normal auction, then it's not visible pricing, it's the fact that it's an auction. A consignment system always leads to lower prices.

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I'm no economics expert (as I'm sure you know by now) and the games I have played most recently include WoW and Anarchy Online. I also hear frequent reports from Dark Age of Camelot and occaisionally from FF XI.

WoW:
I haven't payed attention until now, but my roommate constantly bragged about buying low and selling high in WoW (until he quit MMO world completely for awhile). Long after the level grind became boring, or when he did not have enough time to raid, he would log in long enough to buy up and locating popular items in off hours).

AO:
At the time I was in Anarchy Online, there was no market minigame per se, but since that game is all about the twink and grind (it's still a fun, well-made game with cool visuals if beginning to show it's age), there was a lot of Guild based control of resources. You could get nowhere as a loner, because in order to wear the equipment you need to take on even-cons, you have to have buffs that allow you to slot implants that allow you to use the nanotech that enables you to build the better implants so you can buff higher in order to wear the better equipment. If you can't do all the buffing, equipment locating, nano activating, and implant assembling yourself (in which case you have no skills left to fight with) you have to suck up to a guild and pay whatever they say, no questions asked, yes sir and please maam. Because the stuff you need (not want, so you can take on +4s, but NEED so you can take on -1s) appears randomly in stores or not at all.

EQ: Played it for about 5 minutes on a friend's account. Then got sucked into Asheron's Call for the storyline and friends that were already playing.

Perhaps my experience is somewhat skewed.

I see two major differences here:

- You don't need IOs for PvE. Therefore, you can ignore high prices until low prices come around, or until you can get what you need from drops or friends. And you can always place a standing order at the price you are willing to pay.

- You can't walk in and buy the 3 items priced below your mark and resell them high. Well you can, but your item may not sell because of the pricing history. You have to then spend extra money and time buying and selling to yourself to drive the price up.

One additional point:

- If it comes down to it, I'd rather the Devs try out the blind bid system now and change it to an open price system later, than do the opposite.

Except that showing prices doesn't drive down prices in other games either. It seems to drive them UP.

Heh, I'd rather have a WentPrime that nobody uses than one that is a centre of price gouging and rare hoarding.

People will hoard rares anyway, but this way I don't have to see it.

Hey, check out this mental exercise.

The devs may or may not ever create a sanctioned ANTI-twinking system. In any case, WentPrime is not that system.

The devs may or may not ever create a sanctioned twinking system. In any case, WentPrime is not that system.

There you go.

I partly agree.

People looking to buy and sell will be fine. But people who never came to the boards will get the idea of using it to transfer stuff and chuckle inwardly at their own cleverness until they discover they have just purchased a TO for 10 M influence.

In part, I can't feel too much sympathy: they can't miss the fact that there is no sign saying who the TO is from. In fact, i find it amusing that people will be complaining to the Devs "I was trying to misuse your system and I LOST MY MONEY!!!"

But you have a point. How many people will leave the game because of this?

On the other hand, they can probably make all that money back by intercepting some other Level 50 n00b's transfer...

Gentle reminder: Using WentPrime to transfer goods or inf is (most likely) technically a 'misuse' of the system. Don't expect it to be protected by the Devs.

IF they decide at some point to put in a 'sanctioned twinking' system, that's different.

And the diversification begins!

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Seems good to me.

- A clueless n00b (no offense to any reading this) who usually never comes to the boards, reads manuals, reads dialogue boxes/tutorials (in other words, 90% of all players) is going to wander into Wentworths' looking for prices.

Instead, he will see crazy prices all over the place. He will pick some widget that is useless to him, and place a price on it based on the fee of 10% of what he wants, rather than what the item is worth. He will spend up to 10% of his own cash-on-hand placing the item on sale, then sit back and see what happens.

More than likely, the item he has placed on sale is worthless. But 90% of the other people in Wentworths are also clueless about the item and none have dropped for them. They will place a price equal to the highest price that item has sold for that they can afford and cross their fingers.

So IF our clueless noob makes a sale, usually, he will get significantly more than he put the item up for, as in tens or hundreds of thousands more.

He will smile.

He will then dump everything he doesn't need on Wentworth's, spending all of his cash in search of the quick buck.

And since W's is cross server, he will likely succeed. Some of his items will gather dust, but others will gather sums up to 10 times what he wanted.

Wentworth's IS a casino. Except it's not random. Someone who watches pricing trends is guaranteed to make a slow steady profit. High rollers will lose small and very occaisionally win big.

You almost have to TRY not to make money. And if you don't like it, it's optional.

Here's how I look at it:

From a designer stand point (I'm not a designer, but hope to be) Wentworth's is a necessary evil. You can't have a crafting system without a trading system. They could not launch Inventions without W's.

That being the case, they are more concerned with making a bullet-retardant system than making one that will 'stimulate the economy'. To them, the game works fine without an economy, so an economy is optional.

Therefore, the system is designed to retard price fixing. There are things that are in slow supply, but nothing that ever 'runs out'. There are no penalties for underpricing an item, in fact you are rewarded. The buyer can sniff around for bargains (as far as we know).

If Wentworth's gathers dust, it's all good: the tool is there if anyone chooses to use it. But it won't gather dust. 90% of player will use it just because it's there, IF:

- They can find stuff they can use there, and
- The first few times they use it, they get a few sales.

The biggest flaws of W's, in my mind:

- The Invention System is TOO BIG. The chances of finding EXACTLY what you want are non-existent; but those who want something 'kinda sorta like this' should be fine.

- It needs some kind of built in ad system, to keep Broadcast and Request free of spam.

- It's non-intuitive. People will freak over the lack of pricing, especially in the early days before many items have sale histories.

- If feedback/turn around time is instant, it will encourage people to 'price creep' which is boring. If it is not, it will turn off impatient buyers, which is most people.

- We need more info on what a 'trnasaction inventory' is and how it works. If this is de facto storage, it will lead to people trying to misuse W's as extra inventory space, which will lead to them 'accidentlly selling' items.

- As seen in this thread, clueless people attempting to use W's as a item/inf transfer system will occaisionally get burned, creating a loud minority that will lead to a true sanctioned 'twinking system'. I sigh.

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Because only an idiot will actually offer 5 million. You'll start at something low like 50K, and move up in 10-50K increments until you find the low price. In your example, you'll get it for 100,000. Sure when things get started a few people will overbid, but after awhile the only time that's going to happen is if someone doesn't have a good transfer strategy.

This is not theory craft. You can log into FFXI and see people doing exactly that.

And what happens after you get it for 100K, that enters the sales log and can touch off a permanent deflation in that product. Said deflation could move sales off the auction house until the log times out.

What happens to A is that he may lose his listing fee, and says "Screw this" and starts spamming the auction channel till get gets a direct trade. Just like in FFXI when people set up their stores to avoid the auction house.

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This assumes 2 things:

- quick feedback on whether a sale is made, and being able to rebid on specifically the same item.

I don't think it will be this way, because then people will complain that the devs 'forced them to' increment bids up in 1 inf units to not 'get screwed' on a price.

If I was a dev, I'd do it this way:

As previously stated, you have a 'transaction inventory'. Each bid you make moves a 'ghost' of that item into your transaction inventory, along with any items that have failed to sell within the last 30 days. When your transaction inventory is full, you can make no more bids.

When the sales are processed, (every 24 hours?) the 'ghost' items become 'real', and failed bid vanish and free up space.

After all, if you can bid for more items than your transaction inventory, what happens if they all come through? You don't want items to vanish because your transaction inventory got overloaded.